I still disagree with this KM the transitions and clues show Dany is muddling what she remembers with what she was told.Plus Jamie's account is not corrobarated as he only sees one person "hooded and cloaked" who he thought was the queen leaving to go to the ship.No Viserys,there is a reason why the author put that there and its probably because it wasn't Rhaella Jamie saw.In a lot of cases in this book when you look at what the players think put it together.There are questions and imo the author contructed in such a way to prompt questions.Taking what Jamie said,8yr old Viserys and what he told Dany,her own memories this passage is not telling me what its telling you.So,we'll have to agree to disagree.
I've got no disagreement that Dany's memories are muddled. Jamie's account corroborates what Dany said in that it confirms (as does the world book) that the standard story is as Dany describes. The cloaked and hooded thing I interpret as being because Rhaella was covering up all the injuries of the night before, but I won't argue against the possibility that there was something sneaky going on. Question away. However the passages you quoted don't give any hint of three flights, only two.
Actually I wouldn't say that Stannis corroborates Dany's story beyond the fact that Dany and Viserys were no longer there by the time he got there. (snip) So who was holding Dragonstone? I would never say that I "took Dragonstone from the Targaryens" if the castle no longer had any Targaryens to fight for, or weren't still holding the castle in someone's name which they can't have been if the only Targaryens had to be stolen by Darry and everyone else was dead or at the Wall.
So I don't see Stannis' account and Dany's actually really adding up
Dragonstone was the last outpost of Targaryen loyalists, thus Stannis took it from the Targaryens. I don't think there's any indication of whether any actual fighting took place or whether the garrison simply surrendered, but Stannis took it either way.
Dany's account of Darry stealing the two Targ children away is pretty well corroborated by Stannis:
ACoK prologue said:
I built a fleet at Robert’s command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it.
"As if I could have stopped it" indicates it happened before Stannis was in position to intercept Darry's ship, so before he was there. Thus "steal away" is from the garrison rather than from Stannis. The fact that Rhaella didn't go with them fits in nicely with her being dead at the time.
I still disagree with this KM the transitions and clues show Dany is muddling what she remembers with what she was told.Plus Jamie's account is not corrobarated as he only sees one person "hooded and cloaked" who he thought was the queen leaving to go to the ship.No Viserys,there is a reason why the author put that there and its probably because it wasn't Rhaella Jamie saw.In a lot of cases in this book when you look at what the players think put it together.There are questions and imo the author contructed in such a way to prompt questions.Taking what Jamie said,8yr old Viserys and what he told Dany,her own memories this passage is not telling me what its telling you.So,we'll have to agree to disagree.
I've got no disagreement that Dany's memories are muddled. Jamie's account corroborates what Dany said in that it confirms (as does the world book) that the standard story is as Dany describes. The cloaked and hooded thing I interpret as being because Rhaella was covering up all the injuries of the night before, but I won't argue against the possibility that there was something sneaky going on. Question away. However the passages you quoted don't give any hint of three flights, only two.
Let me take a different approach.I understand what you are saying .I disagree because of how the author chose to lay it out alongside the clues given from Viserys accounts and Jamie's.
I should probably re-phrase by saying our interpretation of the standard and acceptance of it is flawed because unlike us the characters lack an overall view of what each other saw and experianced.We in some regards don't lack that.Lets start with your notion that Rhaella was hooded and cloaked to hide injuries from the night before.
1.Unless medieval garb for women changed from the long sleeve flowing dressess to mini skirts and halter tops KM then the bruises on Rhaella would have been good and covered thus making her being "cloaked and hooded" unneccessary. So there's a high possibility that the figure being cloaked and hooded was not to conceal bruises,but to conceal that it was not the queen.And remember now al Jamie saw was this figure climbing into the wheelhouse
2. "The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."
Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew."
As you can see from the above quote the figure did not leave KL the "day after" Jamie only reports that he had seen the queen once "after" Chelsted was burnt.
1.The figure Jamie saw absent Viserys was not Rhaella which "could" mean that she had already left KL earlier.
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 12, 2015 1:04:18 GMT
Another oddity, is the need for Rhaella and Viserys to make a midnight flight to Dragonstone. The rebellion's fleet was destroyed, so at the time it would have been safer to take the Queen and heir to Dragonstone by day with a royal escort, then take a risky midnight ride without escort. Unless of course Rhaella was taking Viserys to flee from Aerys before he had a chance to rape her. In such case the purpose of a midnight flight would be to avoid Aerys' ships from stopping them and returning them to the Red Keep.
Another oddity, is the need for Rhaella and Viserys to make a midnight flight to Dragonstone. The rebellion's fleet was destroyed, so at the time it would have been safer to take the Queen and heir to Dragonstone by day with a royal escort, then take a risky midnight ride without escort. Unless of course Rhaella was taking Viserys to flee from Aerys before he had a chance to rape her. In such case the purpose of a midnight flight would be to avoid Aerys' ships from stopping them and returning them to the Red Keep.
This is my thinking as well atleast part of it.Specifically,Rhaella bolted with Viserys before hand to in order to get away from Aerys.She wasn't happy couldn't take it and was probably a bit worried Aerys was keeping such tight grip on Viserys .So when things started to get a bit hairy and the oppurtunity presented itself she took Viserys and made a break for it.
The other thing is to me Dragonstone would never be safe,that would be the first place anyone would look so it seems crazy that this stealth would be perpetrated to go to Dragonstone.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I feel like the answer to all of this will become more clear if we consolidate several threads into one: The Enigmatic Elia Martell (did I post that here?), Wacky Willem, and Lemongate. I believe all of these may be connected, in that there is an underground Targaryen railroad in play.
First, let me start out by saying that I think Elia went to Dorne, or at least met up with her Dornish family, sometime after recovering from Rhaenys' birth (or perhaps during the recovery period, if the recovery period was actually a ruse) but before the tourney at Harrenhal. There are several clues throughout the story that support this. To what end I'm not entirely sure yet, but I suspect that this meetup may have been when Ashara Dayne came to court.
Also, the whole Kingswood Brotherhood encounter is very fishy....a group led by a descendant of staunch Blackfyre supporters, who kidnap nobles for ransom, and they wound the LC of the KG but LEAVE THE WIFE OF THE PRINCE OF DRAGONSTONE alone, save for taking some jewels and a kiss??? I don't buy it. There's a Blackfyre connection here with Simon Toyne, I just know it.
Add to this that Elia returns to KL, attends the tourney at which she is spurned, and has this mystery pregnancy not mentioned anywhere, by anyone, that results in a son born on Dragonstone right around the time her husband goes on walkabout. (A son that was seen by his father as TPTWP with a song of ice and fire, etc.) Odd.
Then we move into Darrygate - and the more I look at this the more I cotton to the idea that Darry did NOT leave KL until AFTER the Sack, and that Rhaella/Viserys weren't holed up on Dragonstone. I think we need to pay attention to Tyrion's plan of getting Myrcella to Dorne by way of Braavos, specifically avoiding Dragonstone, and then sending Tommen away from Joffrey under protection of Ser Jaclyn with no knowledge of his final wherebouts - IMO these two scenarios are telling us something about the movements of Targaryen heirs during RR. However, I think these scenarios apply to TWO different Targaryen heirs - plans in place to get both male heirs out of KL, and put them in separate places.
(I'll also throw in a plug for The Fisherman's Daughter Theory (TM), which postulates that the FD and all of Ned's movements from the Vale to Winterfell are part of a human smuggling operation intended to get someone out of the north and across the Narrow Sea via White Harbor.)
This is where Lemongate comes in. Dany's backstory ties in to the hiding location of one of the heirs. I haven't worked through this in my head yet.
Anyway, my point is that all of these movements and all of this shuffling around by Darry, the three KG, etc, are related and indicative of preemptively moving heirs to safety - with knowledge of/planning by both Rhaegar and Rhaella.
1.Unless medieval garb for women changed from the long sleeve flowing dressess to mini skirts and halter tops KM then the bruises on Rhaella would have been good and covered thus making her being "cloaked and hooded" unneccessary. So there's a high possibility that the figure being cloaked and hooded was not to conceal bruises,but to conceal that it was not the queen.And remember now al Jamie saw was this figure climbing into the wheelhouse
I don't see any reason to assume her injuries were only on her arms and legs, why not her face too? Hiding a black eye or two seems like a perfectly good reason to wear a hooded cloak.
There doesn't seem to have been any great secrecy about the departure; Jaime mentions Rhaella's maids discussing her condition, after all, and you wouldn't ship someone off in a royal wheelhouse if you're trying to be stealthy. If there was a scheme to send Rhaella somewhere else, why not just lie about the destination of the ship? Or if Rhaella stayed in KL, why not just claim she went in secret rather than putting on this elaborate charade?
Sure, the cloak and hood allows for the possibility that it wasn't Rhaella. Just because something's possible doesn't mean it actually happened. There were a lot of people on Dragonstone who would have known if Rhaella wasn't there, and they were willing to sell Viserys and Dany to Stannis to ensure they weren't punished for their rebellion. It seems pretty unlikely that the story wouldn't have got out.
1.Unless medieval garb for women changed from the long sleeve flowing dressess to mini skirts and halter tops KM then the bruises on Rhaella would have been good and covered thus making her being "cloaked and hooded" unneccessary. So there's a high possibility that the figure being cloaked and hooded was not to conceal bruises,but to conceal that it was not the queen.And remember now al Jamie saw was this figure climbing into the wheelhouse
I don't see any reason to assume her injuries were only on her arms and legs, why not her face too? Hiding a black eye or two seems like a perfectly good reason to wear a hooded cloak.
There doesn't seem to have been any great secrecy about the departure; Jaime mentions Rhaella's maids discussing her condition, after all, and you wouldn't ship someone off in a royal wheelhouse if you're trying to be stealthy. If there was a scheme to send Rhaella somewhere else, why not just lie about the destination of the ship? Or if Rhaella stayed in KL, why not just claim she went in secret rather than putting on this elaborate charade?
There's always the possibility that Rhaella wanted people to think she left on that ship.
The queen had been suffering at Aerys' hands for years - infidelity, cruelty, abuse, rape. She has endured most of it herself while trying to protect her youngest son from the worst of Aerys' behaviors. The kingdom descends into war, and suddenly the royal family is on the losing side. Aerys orders his family away to safety on Dragonstone, finally allowing his wife and child out of his sight for the first time in years.
What would YOU do? I know what I'd do....get a message to a longtime friend, perhaps a friend who was more than a friend, and ask for help getting out of dodge.
Sure, the cloak and hood allows for the possibility that it wasn't Rhaella. Just because something's possible doesn't mean it actually happened. There were a lot of people on Dragonstone who would have known if Rhaella wasn't there, and they were willing to sell Viserys and Dany to Stannis to ensure they weren't punished for their rebellion. It seems pretty unlikely that the story wouldn't have got out.
Who? The garrison? If she left KL all cloaked and hooded, who's to say she didn't arrive at DS the same way? All the men would see is a woman, said to be Rhaella, ushered quickly by toward the safety inside the castle. Her maids? Sounds like they didn't go with her, since Jaime heard them talking after she left. A maester? Who was that? It wasn't Cressen - Stannis brought him from Storm's End - and Pycelle stayed behind in KL. Cooks? Servants? As if any of those would have been allowed near a royal during a war. (I have said before at the W that IF Rhaella was there after the Trident/Sack, and especially if she was pregnant again, she would have been confined to a room with MAYBE one or two people AT MOST having access to her. Her own son probably wouldn't have been allowed to see her.)
I just find it really, really interesting that not a single person has shown up in current universe that can verify ANY of the goings-on at Dragonstone during the Rebellion - we only have the account of a "garrison" from the viewpoint of a sheltered 8yo boy.
side note: The missing maester is especially intriguing, as this would have been the same guy who assisted in the birth of at least one of Rhaegar's kids and looked after a postpartum Elia. Maybe we'll find him playing a nice game of cyvasse with Walys Flowers, former maester of Winterfell, who also conveniently disappeared during that time. Hey, markg171 , crackpot for you - who might fit the description of a stooped man using a walking stick, with big soft hands, who would be able to teach Dany classic High Valyrian? Former Master-at-Arms of KL seems a bit out of character, but how about the former Maester of Dragonstone?
side note: The missing maester is especially intriguing, as this would have been the same guy who assisted in the birth of at least one of Rhaegar's kids and looked after a postpartum Elia. Maybe we'll find him playing a nice game of cyvasse with Walys Flowers, former maester of Winterfell, who also conveniently disappeared during that time. Hey, markg171 , crackpot for you - who might fit the description of a stooped man using a walking stick, with big soft hands, who would be able to teach Dany classic High Valyrian? Former Master-at-Arms of KL seems a bit out of character, but how about the former Maester of Dragonstone?
It is a very interesting question, of where the maester went. Because like you point out, Stannis brought Cressen from Storm's End. But we never hear about how Cressen REPLACED anybody when Stannis brought him to his new castle. So Dragonstone was missing a maester after the war, or GRRM just never thought to mention what happened to this person (kind of like you mention how he never says what happened to Walys).
But a maester certainly seems to fit Dany's odd descriptions of Darry far better than Willem Darry does. And at least supposedly, Darry stole Dany and Viserys with "four loyal men". But these men never appear again.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Makes sense to me....I've seen it speculated before, and I always thought that ol' Haldon knew waaaay too much to be only a "half" maester. And IIRC, he acts like he knows Tyrion, and of course he would know "about" Tyrion at minimum had he been in service to a royal castle.
That of course leads to the next question: Is Lemore Ashara Dayne? Discuss.
Lemore is hot, but not Ashara Dayne hot. Their ages don't line up. Lemore's eyes are not all that remarkable, as Tyrion makes no remarks regarding their color. So I'm in the "no" camp on this one.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
There's always the possibility that Rhaella wanted people to think she left on that ship.
Sure, but where's the evidence that this happened? Everything we know points to the same story. The cloaked thing is totally consistent with that story. It is also consistent with the idea that it wasn't Rhaella, but so what? Without some reason to believe it wasn't Rhaella, why even consider that possibility? I don't understand the reason why people are questioning this. As far as I can see it stems from noticing that Dany's memories of events several years later are dubious. I really don't see why the events at Dragonstone couldn't be exactly as described and as all the evidence points to, and Dany's memories of later years still be false.
Who? The garrison? If she left KL all cloaked and hooded, who's to say she didn't arrive at DS the same way? All the men would see is a woman, said to be Rhaella, ushered quickly by toward the safety inside the castle.
She was there for nine months and nobody there saw her? Nobody questioned the Queen hiding away in a room on her own for all that time? That stretches credibility beyond breaking point.
I just find it really, really interesting that not a single person has shown up in current universe that can verify ANY of the goings-on at Dragonstone during the Rebellion - we only have the account of a "garrison" from the viewpoint of a sheltered 8yo boy.
Stannis verified the basic outline of the story in Cressen's prologue.
The app, questionable as it is, adds the information that Viserys was crowned by Rhaella on Dragonstone. This is not in-book PoV information, it's new information. It may not be true, but it's surely what the conventional understanding in Westeros of what took place was.
The missing maester is especially intriguing, as this would have been the same guy who assisted in the birth of at least one of Rhaegar's kids and looked after a postpartum Elia. Maybe we'll find him playing a nice game of cyvasse with Walys Flowers, former maester of Winterfell, who also conveniently disappeared during that time. Hey, markg171 , crackpot for you - who might fit the description of a stooped man using a walking stick, with big soft hands, who would be able to teach Dany classic High Valyrian? Former Master-at-Arms of KL seems a bit out of character, but how about the former Maester of Dragonstone?
Now that is an interesting question. I think a "great bear of a man" fits perfectly well for a former master at arms though, and the high Valyrian thing just is a non-issue. It's a Latin parallel, most nobles would be taught it, and many travellers and traders would pick it up too. It's a common lingua franca. Even the Windblown use it as a company tongue. There is a missing maester, though. Where do maesters go? Maybe back to the citadel. I wonder where Marwyn served before he went off on his journey across Essos? Maybe he felt it was a good idea to get out of Dodge for eight years.
1.Unless medieval garb for women changed from the long sleeve flowing dressess to mini skirts and halter tops KM then the bruises on Rhaella would have been good and covered thus making her being "cloaked and hooded" unneccessary. So there's a high possibility that the figure being cloaked and hooded was not to conceal bruises,but to conceal that it was not the queen.And remember now al Jamie saw was this figure climbing into the wheelhouse
I don't see any reason to assume her injuries were only on her arms and legs, why not her face too? Hiding a black eye or two seems like a perfectly good reason to wear a hooded cloak.
There doesn't seem to have been any great secrecy about the departure; Jaime mentions Rhaella's maids discussing her condition, after all, and you wouldn't ship someone off in a royal wheelhouse if you're trying to be stealthy. If there was a scheme to send Rhaella somewhere else, why not just lie about the destination of the ship? Or if Rhaella stayed in KL, why not just claim she went in secret rather than putting on this elaborate charade?
Sure, the cloak and hood allows for the possibility that it wasn't Rhaella. Just because something's possible doesn't mean it actually happened. There were a lot of people on Dragonstone who would have known if Rhaella wasn't there, and they were willing to sell Viserys and Dany to Stannis to ensure they weren't punished for their rebellion. It seems pretty unlikely that the story wouldn't have got out.
Someone always tells.
Nobody has.
Maybe there's nothing to tell?
Well because per Jamie's recollection of what the maids said "the Queen's breasts and thighs looked like they were ravished by a beast." They didn't say anything about her sporting a shinner.And i don't recall anywhere in the text that says Aerys beat Rhaella,sure when her burnt someone he was extremely rough but punching her in the eye....Nah.Lastly,concerning that point even if Aerys used to give Rhaella the "straight to the moon" treatment to save face he would not have put bruises where it would be visible.
And we come back to perception.What did Jamie here with regards to te maids did he come in mis convo to hear her thighs and breast were messed up?Also,all Jamie saw was a figure cloaked and hooded climbing into the royal wheelhouse and he assumed it was the queen.Plus,Rhaella may have left KL without Aery's leave and thus there needed to be a lie told to make people believe she was in KL when she wasn't.
Now we have to look at the author's point and why he did what he did.He could have simply have Jamie see Rhaella absent hood and cloak.He chose to put that there for a reason and that was to point to the possibility that it wasn't the Queen after all.Given Aerys decent into utter cray cray town,and the mounting tension around him what would Rhaella have done especially after the King burnt two High Lords.Make arrangements and get the hell out of Dodge.
We don't know what the garrison on Dragonstone saw,how much contact they were allowed to have.Plus someone brought up a good question.Who supposedly was the Maester that delievered Dany on Dragonstone if a delivery on Dragonstone took place?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Now that is an interesting question. I think a "great bear of a man" fits perfectly well for a former master at arms though
The "great grey bear of a man" though has extra qualities that make it almost impossible that he was a former master-at-arms and a knight
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.
She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.
No man who spent his lifetime in the art of war is going to have soft hands.
She was there for nine months and nobody there saw her? Nobody questioned the Queen hiding away in a room on her own for all that time? That stretches credibility beyond breaking point.
I think people would have seen her, but hypothetically speaking, just who would actually know that it was Rhaella?
If Rhaella ever lived on Dragonstone, it was almost 22 years before, back when Aerys was Prince of Dragonstone. And that seems unlikely given that Aerys seems to have grown up in court considering that Barristan says that he witnessed their marriage, and that must have been before Aerys was even Prince of Dragonstone considering Barristan doesn't become a KG until the reign of Jaehaerys, yet Aerys and Rhaella were having their first child in Aegon V's reign, and there's no real reason that the heir to Harvest Hall attended a wedding anywhere but at KL, and Aerys became best friends with Steffon and Tywin, who were both serving at court. So everything points to Rhaella never having lived on Dragonstone.
Which means that anybody on Dragonstone would only know Rhaella through any visits she'd made over the years. Which there are none recorded as having happened. Then the only other possible way is for anybody from Dragonstone visiting KL to know what Rhaella looks like. Which given Aerys' propensity to lock her up, and for her to live in separate parts of the castle than Aerys did, makes it hard that anybody trying to see Aerys would ever often see Rhaella as well. So all in all, it wouldn't really be that hard to fake "Rhaella" on Dragonstone, if almost no one actually knows what she looks like, or ever looked like in the first place
Joss nodded. "If it please His Grace—" "His Grace is hunting across the Blackwater," Ned said, wondering how a man could live his whole life a few days ride from the Red Keep and still have no notion what his king looked like. Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth. "I am Lord Eddard Stark, the King's Hand. Tell me who you are and what you know of these raiders."
Only a few of the captives had been in service here when Jon Connington had last been lord: a grizzled serjeant, blind in one eye; a couple of the washerwomen; a groom who had been a stableboy during Robert's Rebellion; the cook, who had grown enormously fat; the castle armorer. Griff had let his beard grow out during the voyage, for the first time in many years, and to his surprise it had come in mostly red, though here and there ash showed amidst the fire. Clad in a long red-and-white tunic embroidered with the twin griffins of his House, counterchanged and combatant, he looked an older, sterner version of the young lord who had been Prince Rhaegar's friend and companion … but the men and women of Griffin's Roost still looked at him with strangers' eyes.
It's not like GRRM hasn't done this before where people who should know somebody don't.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!