Jaime is not a member of the Night's Watch, though he probably should have been after he killed Aerys. No good deed goes unpunished, and all of that. Sword for Jon and Horn for Sam makes sense to me. Sam's identity is connected with horn from the very first by his connection to Horn Hill. I would think that the Shield should apply to a Brother of the Night's Watch.
I think Jaime will end up at the Wall at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Stoneheart sends him or Brienne intervenes with his hanging and suggests the Wall. That would make for interesting conflicts given the situation at the Wall end of DwD. There is a lot of shield imagery in Jaime's POV, not the least of which is the wierwood table shaped like a shield in the office of the LC of the kingsguard. And Jaime has lost his sword arm. I can see this being part of his redemption arc.
We don't know what many of Ned's dreams are, but there are some hints to them. He dreams of snow and the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night, dreams of silence and darkness. Ned has dreams of the "frozen hell" of the Stark's of Winterfell and that seems like a direct nod toward the crypts. He dreams dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises, which are certainly ominous. Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn also plays a large role in Ned's toj dream. As to the toj dream, it's a dream that Ned has had before, but I don't know how often is has reoccurred. That does seem to be something important in Jon's dreams, that they repeat, and yet change slightly over time. But again, we don't know the majority of the information in Ned's dreams and I speculate that they are very like Jon's. The one we know he is having repeatedly is "dreaming of snow, of the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night." because he tells us it has been reoccurring often.
We're not given much information on his dreams. Personally I think Ned's dream of the toj is an amalgamation of several recurring dreams with the oldest a foreshadowing of a return of the dragons (blood streaked sky) and the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death (the others). This feels more like one of Jojen's green dreams in it's imagery.
We don't know what many of Ned's dreams are, but there are some hints to them. He dreams of snow and the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night, dreams of silence and darkness. Ned has dreams of the "frozen hell" of the Stark's of Winterfell and that seems like a direct nod toward the crypts. He dreams dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises, which are certainly ominous. Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn also plays a large role in Ned's toj dream. As to the toj dream, it's a dream that Ned has had before, but I don't know how often is has reoccurred. That does seem to be something important in Jon's dreams, that they repeat, and yet change slightly over time. But again, we don't know the majority of the information in Ned's dreams and I speculate that they are very like Jon's. The one we know he is having repeatedly is "dreaming of snow, of the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night." because he tells us it has been reoccurring often.
I agree. The frozen hell reserved for Starks seems a reference to Dante's Inferno and 9th circle of hell. Blood and broken promises relating to Lyanna and possibly Arthur Dayne, Ashera Dayne, even Robert Baratheon.
As to Jon's dreams, we don't know what he is meant to find. The only dream he has that involves a sword is the dream when he is standing on a wall and fighting of the dead with a sword that burns red in his fist, and he seems to feel that blade is Longclaw. He also "dreams" of Ice, and being gifted in by his father, but I am not sure that was an actual dream or a day dream/fantasy/wish. And as for the crypt dreams, he seems to feel that he is searching for a person, not a thing. Calling out for someone, looking for someone. Jon dreams of lots of things and it's not easy to interpret them, or even agree on a focus of the subject matter.
It's hard to know where this is going because the dream of the crypts does change over time. He seems to be getting closer to his identity as a Stark even as he rejects it. The Wall beserker dream is a mixture of his own anxieties as he sees people he has killed scrambling up the up the Wall like ice spiders; a reference to wights.
It could be both. I used to be convinced that Dawn was in the crypts, but now I have started to let that go. But another sword that calls to Jon makes sense. And if that sword contains a soul, then it might be why Jon seems to feel he's searching for a person, not a thing.
I have recently been looking into souls trapped in swords, and comparing the swords in this story to the demon blade of Elric of Melnibone, Stormbringer, and it's counterpart, Mournblade. I think Valyrian steel might have captured souls in it, and that's why the swords seem to crave blood, and I think Dawn could be a sword that traps a soul as well. So, your thoughts on the original Ice holding an icey soul seem to fit into that path nicely.
I think this is the crux of it. These heroic blades have a soul. It's part of the Stark Musgrave ritual that they have forgotten about the real sword Ice and now a King of Winter is needed to retrieve it.
lynn , stdaga , cecily , markg thinks Dawn is corrupted by the soul of the NQ and someone worthy is needed to wield it and overcome her influence i think IIRC
I think he is on the right track with swords containing souls; the problem is that we keep trying to make the Dawn Sword into the sword Ice belonging to the Starks. I think they are two separate swords. I think Ice does have a corrupted soul and Jon will be tested by it. It's hidden in the crypts for a reason.
The Dawn sword is the opposite of Ice and it will not join with a corrupted soul. Whatever powers it has will only be transferred to someone with a worthy soul. So Euron is not likely to get his hands on it when he sacks Starfall. There is some speculation that Areo Hotah will be sent to Starfall to retrieve Edric Dayne and the Dawn Sword before that happens. Untimately I think it will end up with Brienne.
I think Jaime will end up at the Wall at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Stoneheart sends him or Brienne intervenes with his hanging and suggests the Wall. That would make for interesting conflicts given the situation at the Wall end of DwD. There is a lot of shield imagery in Jaime's POV, not the least of which is the wierwood table shaped like a shield in the office of the LC of the kingsguard. And Jaime has lost his sword arm. I can see this being part of his redemption arc.
I could totally see Brienne trying to bargain and get Jaime sent to the wall, but would Stoneheart go for that? After all, she is pretty vindictive and is hanging many people, and some of those people might not be very guilty. As far as Stoneheart knows, Jaime is guilty of quite a bit that could lead to death. But, the wall idea has some merit if the goal is for Jaime to take the black, but who would enforce that in Jaime? I am not sure that he himself would want to take the black, although perhaps it's been his destiny since he took Aerys life. Maybe the Blackfish could take Jaime to the wall and be strong enough to enforce him taking the black?
Jaime has maintained his traditional shield arm, his left, but he is working to use a sword with the left and therefore the shield with the right, the damaged side. The weirwood table of the Kingsguard might be important, although it's important to all kingsguard. Jaime does have a distinction of being a Lord Commander and get's the honor of sitting at the top of the shield. Interestingly, as a kingsguard, Jaime always served as both sword and shield, but when he chose his sword to kill Aerys instead of his shield to protect him, it might have damned Jaime in some irreversible way.
Some how, Jaime might make his way to the wall. I can see that, and GRRM could do it in several ways that would make sense.
I looked into Jaime and shield hints and there are several, although some are not so positive. Jaime with his golden shield at the Hand's Tourney is knocked ass over tea kettle by Sander Clegane. Varys calls the kingsguard a paper shield and refers to Jaime's oath's as worth nothing. Jaime has to make good use of his shield against Ser Ilyn's training, but even then knows that his golden hand can only hold his shield loosely, and on one occasion loses his shield and almost his golden hand. On a more positive note, Jaime is connected to the shield he finds at Harrenhal, the Lothston shield that Brienne ends up using and painting to match Dunk's tourney shield, and this certainly ties all three of them to a certain type of honor, even though Brienne isn't an official knight and Dunk might have lied about his knighthood, also. That shield is made of oak, which could tie back to Garth Greenhand's sons Owen Oakenshield and John the Oak. In the White Book, Jaime focuses on both his red shield insignia and his white shield. Jaime realizes that if jousting, using his shield on his right arm would be about as useful as a nipple on a breast plate (I'm waiting for all those nipple on a breast plate comments to pay off somehow), and jousting doesn't make a person a great knight or warrior, although Jaime's focus at this point is only on what he has lost with his hand. Cersei (in the midst of a vindictive pity party), claims that Jaime was to be her sword and shield and strong right arm, but he has failed her in all of those things.
Jaime does have some interesting thoughts on how it was his right (sword) hand that made him a knight, not his left (shield) hand, but part of his lesson might be learning that his shield will be his most important role, so I can see the potential in him. Also, I will not at all be surprised to find out that it was Jaime who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, whose shield defined the mystery knight and sent chaos rippling through Harrenahal and eventually Westeros. Jaime does seem to leave chaos in his wake, sometimes intentional, sometimes accidental.
Father always said that a swift sword stroke is a better defense than any shield. Admittedly, most sword strokes require a hand. AFFC-Jaime III
This quote might hint at the new role as shield that Jaime has to take on, since his role as a sword has been clearly hindered. I don't know if I agree this will be his role, but there is certainly some potential for it set up in the text.
We're not given much information on his dreams. Personally I think Ned's dream of the toj is an amalgamation of several recurring dreams with the oldest a foreshadowing of a return of the dragons (blood streaked sky) and the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death (the others). This feels more like one of Jojen's green dreams in it's imagery.
No, we are not given detailed looks at most of Ned's dreams, like we are Theon's, or Jon's or even Jaime's weirwood stump dream. But we get hints. Certainly, the toj dream is important, it's set up to be that way, and for us to pay attention to it. I agree it's an amalgamation of multiple dreams or events, but I also think we focus on it as Ned's only dream and that is not the case. He has troubled dreams in the story long before the toj dream, dreams of the frozen hell of the Stark's (which I think is the crypts, even if this is a punishment "circle" of hell), dreams of the silent wolfswood and snow, and I don't think people focus on these dreams at all. If we had too much detail of Ned's dreams, there would not be a puzzle, only an answer, and that's not what GRRM is going for. He wants us to search and hunt for those answers, not be give them.
I agree. The frozen hell reserved for Starks seems a reference to Dante's Inferno and 9th circle of hell. Blood and broken promises relating to Lyanna and possibly Arthur Dayne, Ashera Dayne, even Robert Baratheon.
Yes, we discussed this on Heresy and I think that there might even be more Dante's Inferno hints within the story, and I was thankful that you pointed me down that path of inquiry. And the Stark's seem tied to a role that both serves to make them protectors and also to make them punished in some way. The broken promises could touch many things, but in Ned's clear thoughts, he thinks that he kept his promises to Lyanna, yet failed others on the way. The Stark's are clearly tied to an underworld mentality, in the crypts, even without the punishment aspect, as they are keepers of the underworld, even if it's just their own underworld, with hints of Hades and Osiris tied to them (Osiris is especially tied to Eddard). This is a mantle worn by any man who is Lord of Winterfell, which Ned was. Hades has a wife that was tied to the spring, a wife that he could only hold for part of the year. Who was that wife in Ned's story? I suspect it was Lyanna, but Ashara might also fit the idea of a spring goddess as well, although it is Lyanna that is tied to flowers. The bit of contradiction in Lyanna's flowers is that they are "winter roses" and tied to Winterfell's glass gardens, which don't really hint of spring. Robert is of course interesting in all of this, because he is the King of Summer in a green god way, while Ned plays the role of King of Winter. I think they are both tied to the same women, and that could be Lyanna or Ashara, or even Cersei, actually. I admit I don't see much spring or summer imagery in the Dayne's, only sword and star.
It's hard to know where this is going because the dream of the crypts does change over time. He seems to be getting closer to his identity as a Stark even as he rejects it. The Wall beserker dream is a mixture of his own anxieties as he sees people he has killed scrambling up the up the Wall like ice spiders; a reference to wights.
I just had a creepy vision of Othor and Jafer climbing the wall in a determined, unstoppable way Othor's hand climbing beside him. Eesh! I agree that Jon is drawn to his Starkness, but the reason he pushes it away is because he is trying to embrace his role as a brother of the Night's Watch. I think Jon's breakthrough will be when he realizes he can be both Stark and Night's Watch brother, and that is okay. He is so focused on pushing his family away, he doesn't even realize that many brother's of the watch wear sigils or broaches or pins that depict their family. And the Lord Commander gave Jon a sword that has obvious imagery that ties him to his Stark roots, not just Ghost, but that aspect of his family history.
And not all of those people in the dream are people he has killed himself, such as Robb. Jon has never killed a giant, nor Donal Noye or Deaf Dick Follard (who was actually killed by Ygritte). Jon didn't kill Ygritte (although it would not really surprise me if it was one of his arrow's that took her life). Certainly, I see a lot of guilt in that dream about the people who have died, and he might feel responsible, but not by his own hand. It's odd to me that he doesn't dream of Othor (or even Jafer) in this dream, since they are wights he has seen.
There is no doubt in my mind in this dream that Jon is symbolically killing Robb and taking the Lordship of Winterfell as his own, and he is using his own Valyrian steel "wolf" sword to do it! If he wasn't given his father's sword to fit this role, he will use his own sword. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. Jon is claiming the role that was both Eddard's and Robb's, although I can't forget that it's Bran who symbolically sits on the throne of the Stark's in the Great Hall of Winterfell. I hope we get a conclusion to this story some day. I will feel quite let down if that ending never comes!
I think this is the crux of it. These heroic blades have a soul. It's part of the Stark Musgrave ritual that they have forgotten about the real sword Ice and now a King of Winter is needed to retrieve it.
But why did they ever set the original Ice aside? I could be as special in world lore as Dawn is, but instead it's forgotten, except in a name that is passed down in other swords. Sometimes, I am not convinced that Ice isn't Dawn, only renamed. There is something about the way Dawn acts in Ned's toj dream that I think scares Ned and makes Arthur sad. I think that sword is calling to Ned, and perhaps Jon as well. And a white sword symbolically would look like a shard of ice. And Dawn likes blood, I think!
I think he is on the right track with swords containing souls; the problem is that we keep trying to make the Dawn Sword into the sword Ice belonging to the Starks. I think they are two separate swords. I think Ice does have a corrupted soul and Jon will be tested by it. It's hidden in the crypts for a reason.
The Dawn sword is the opposite of Ice and it will not join with a corrupted soul. Whatever powers it has will only be transferred to someone with a worthy soul. So Euron is not likely to get his hands on it when he sacks Starfall. There is some speculation that Areo Hotah will be sent to Starfall to retrieve Edric Dayne and the Dawn Sword before that happens. Untimately I think it will end up with Brienne.
As I just stated above, I am not sure they are not the same sword. And I don't know that Dawn can't be held by a corrupted soul. There is something quite ominous in the way that Arthur uses Dawn against the Smiling Knight, the hundreds of cuts, which I think are both toying with a lesser swordsman, but also feeding Dawn the blood of an opponent, and that blood strengthens Dawn, AND therefore strengthens Arthur, giving him the power to defeat his enemy. Otherwise he is just cutting him to shreds for assholery, and if that is the case, then Arthur Dayne is no hero.
And I totally see the potential for Dawn not to be the original Ice at all, but if it's a different sword, then I speculate it's a brother blade, like Stormbringer and Mournblade are to each other.
No matter what sword Dawn may or may not have been, I do think that it might end up in Brienne's hand. And she could have Dayne blood, we don't know. I have speculated that she is a bastard that Selwyn took in and raised, never suspecting she would be his heir. I have thought she was Robert's bastard, and I really still do, those blue eyes, he height lines up directly with Robert's, her being sent to Storm's End as a child, her warrior mentality that almost fits Robert's in battle. It all fits, but a bastard needs both a mother and a father. Could her mother be Ashara Dayne? Could Robert and Ashara have had a child from Harrenhal, and that child is Brienne? I guess it will depend on the timeline and how it all plays out. As it stands, I think she is too old to be a Harrenhal child, but the timeline is sketchy, so it's possible. Also making it doubtful is the fact that handsome Robert and lovely Ashara could have produced a homely child such as Brienne, but she is a "beauty" after all!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.