I'm trying to recall where we left off... Crasters worships crueler gods than you or I, so likely not the old gods the Northmen and Wildlings worship. That's the TL;DR version
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Here are two quotes I just picked up in Jon III Clash:
"You are few here, and isolated," Mormont said. "If you like, I'll detail some men to escort you south to the Wall."
Mormont to Craster: so I'm noticing Jon isn't the first LC to offer Wildlings refuge south of the wall.
Then, oddly, after Mormont tells Craster about the wights at Castle Black:
We've had no such troubles here . . . and I'll thank you not to tell such evil tales under my roof. I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe. If wights come walking, I'll know how to send them back to their graves.
At first glance, it seems like Craster is denying that he's seen any wights, but really he's saying he's had no such troubles- no trouble as in no wights, or just no trouble with wights? It seems odd, as it's known by Mormont and others (and Craster's wives of course) that Craster leaves his sons for the wights. Why pretend they don't exist, if it's an open secret?
also, recall the quote about Craster serving crueler gods- he is saying the gods keep him safe...but those are the Otgers he's talking about!
I need to find the quotes from Mormont, too- when he first tells Jon after the wight attack at Castle Black how the NW has forgotten; but obviously this is contradictory because later Mormont tells Jon Craster has been giving his sons to the WWs for years, they just turn a blind eye. I'll copy/paste when I get to that part later.
How come people don't believe they are real then anymore? Southrons I can understand, but northerners, no. Mormont isn't considered a , he's well respected. Hmmmmmm...
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Ok, here is the quote where Mormont admits he knew about the WWs; all the rangers did, including BenJen...which makes it weird to me that Ned is so dismissive of the notion when he kills Gared:
"He gives his sons to the wood." A long silence. Then: "Yes." And "Yes," the raven muttered, strutting. "Yes, yes, yes." "You knew?" "Smallwood told me. Long ago. All the rangers know, though few will talk of it." "Did my uncle know?" "All the rangers," Mormont repeated. "You think I ought to stop him. Kill him if need be." The Old Bear sighed. "Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much the stronger. But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I. These boys are Craster's offerings. His prayers, if you will."
So I don't get the surprised reaction in GoT from undead Othor and Jaffer. Maybe I need to look at that chapter again, because LC Mormont seems genuinely surprised for a guy who's supposedly in on the big secret.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I was reading Sam II in Storm, and I picked up on something I hadn't noticed before at the end of the chapter:
"The girl don't lie," the old woman on the right said. "She's my girl, and I beat the lying out of her early on. You said you'd help her. Do what Ferny says, boy. Take the girl and be quick about it." "Quick," the raven said. "Quick quick quick." "Where?" asked Sam, puzzled. "Where should I take her?" "Someplace warm," the two old women said as one. Gilly was crying. "Me and the babe. Please. I'll be your wife, like I was Craster's. Please, ser crow. He's a boy, just like Nella said he'd be. If you don't take him, they will." "They?" said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, "They. They. They." "The boy's brothers," said the old woman on the left. "Craster's sons. The white cold's rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."
So I've been assuming all this time that if Craster wanted to keep his sons, he could, to a point. Essentially he's making his sacrifices to his crueler gods, right? Except pay attention to the timing here of the old woman's warning to Sam. Craster is already dead at this point, but the 'sons' are still going to come for him. They know somehow, and Craster or not, they are still determined to keep it in the family.
So this makes me wonder about the scene where Sam and Gilly are hunted by the wights. Were they just after their new baby brother? I'll have to wait until I read that chapter for further analysis, but that chapter had a magical element to it, if I'm remembering correctly. They meet the mysterious cold hands, as well as see the eerie murder of crows before them, outside.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
So I don't get the surprised reaction in GoT from undead Othor and Jaffer. Maybe I need to look at that chapter again, because LC Mormont seems genuinely surprised for a guy who's supposedly in on the big secret.
It's quite telling: clearly the Walkers are known, but not their ability to raise the dead? Or at least, the latter was merely thought to be a fairy tale.
It's quite telling: clearly the Walkers are known, but not their ability to raise the dead? Or at least, the latter was merely thought to be a fairy tale.
I have to go back again, because I was sure I read something about wws being reported close to Eastwatch or something. And also, from the way Qhorin Halfhand talks with Mormont and Jon, it sounded like Qhorin, Ben, and Mormont knew about some unnatural occurrences.
i need some coffee, but maybe it was also because they were in such proximity? Maybe they thought it only happened in the land of always winter? I'm perplexed, because Mormont's words seem to contradict himself.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I'm thinking of a number between everything and two and Craster is the one.
Looking back at the scene with the Great Ranging north of the Wall... In Whitetree, in the mouth of the weirwood when the Watch stops, there are skulls in the mouth of the tree. A mouth large enough to swallow a sheep. One skull is smaller, a child's skull. And there are ashes and bits of bones and blackedness from fire. In these few paragraphs of that Jon chapter, we get reference to sheep and babies and burning the dead. And I would say sacrifice or offerings too. The villagers are feeding the weirwood their burnt offerings.
Then there is Craster, also hailing from Whitetree, sacrificing sheep and babies but to the cold instead of the weirwood. So I think he is not new to the idea of sacrificing to the gods and he grew up with this ritual. But where the sacrifice turned to the cold gods is intriguing. I believe it is Jon who says he gives his sons to the woods. So if the Others are inhabiting the woods, then I guess this would just fit in with his practice of sating the gods.
Everything / Craster / two = three.... velly interesting.
Made me think of something else, too - warning: random free-thought ahead.
Pulling from my own reply in the Sacrifice Rhaegar thread...
As we know, I'm a big fan of sniffing out George's inverse parallels, a literary device I am positive that he's using because time is a wheel, on and on it spins, yadda yadda. Sometimes it spins one direction, but then it can reverse and go the other direction - meaning, of course, that it 'walks back' through what happened before.
I'm thinking of the Sailor's Wife describing the statue of Trios to Arya: the first head devours the dying, and they are reborn from the third, but she can't remember what the middle head does. So there has been much speculation about that 2nd head acting as something of a purgatory/transitional state...
...and tying this in with thoughts from an old thread of mine at Sable Hall called "The White Files". To recap, it was highlighting the similarities of three back-to-back chapters in ACOK for Dany, Jon, and Arya in which they each encounter an empty 'white city' during their quests: DanyCo finds Vaes Tolorro, JonCo arrives at Whitetree, and AryaCo ends up at the white village in the Riverlands where they are captured by the Mountain. Each group meets a very different fate at the respective places. (I can repost this here if anyone is interested.)
If Time is a wheel, and the wheel is now spinning in reverse direction (which creates all of these inverse parallels in the first place), then we are viewing the cycle of Trios, but backwards:
Dany and her Dothraki are "reborn" at Vaes Tolorro - they were lost and starving and on the verge of giving up hope, until they find one place in the desert that gives them life. The third head of Trios. Dany earlier "died" in MMD's ceremony and then wandered the RED Waste in limbo, until this point, and she then goes on to meet the Thirteen and head to Qarth.
Jon and the NW are in limbo at Whitetree - they find neither life or death, but from this transitional space they go to Craster's. The second head of Trios. Jon has already been "reborn" by becoming a member of the NW, and later of course will go on to meet his 'death' in the WHITE snow.
Arya, Lommy, Gendry, and Hot Pie find only death at the white village - the cruelty/torture/horrors of war effectively kill "Arya Stark" and any semblance of her former life. The first head of Trios. Arya next goes on to enter a transitional state at Harrenhal, the BLACK castle, and her time spent there plus the escape from which leads to her "rebirth" as a Faceless acolyte.
::dramatic::
I wonder if Whitetree is intentionally meant to be the first head of Trios, where the dead/dying go into the "mouth" of the weirwood before passing to some purgatory state and then being "reborn" as.....something else.
t seems odd, as it's known by Mormont and others (and Craster's wives of course) that Craster leaves his sons for the wights. Why pretend they don't exist, if it's an open secret?
but obviously this is contradictory because later Mormont tells Jon Craster has been giving his sons to the WWs for years, they just turn a blind eye. I'll copy/paste when I get to that part later.
I dont believe Craster is leaving his son for the wights. Mormont never says that Craster is giving his sons to the Others or the white walkers. He says...
Ok, here is the quote where Mormont admits he knew about the WWs; all the rangers did, including BenJen...which makes it weird to me that Ned is so dismissive of the notion when he kills Gared:
"He gives his sons to the wood." A long silence. Then: "Yes." And "Yes," the raven muttered, strutting. "Yes, yes, yes." "You knew?" "Smallwood told me. Long ago. All the rangers know, though few will talk of it." "Did my uncle know?" "All the rangers," Mormont repeated. "You think I ought to stop him. Kill him if need be." The Old Bear sighed. "Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much the stronger. But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I. These boys are Craster's offerings. His prayers, if you will."
He says that Craster gives his sons to the woods as offerings. The rangers know that Craster uses his sons to stay right with the gods. They did not know exactly what Craster was up to. Not until he is dead do the Wives speak up about the cold baddies with blue eyes that accompany the cold.
Yeah, leaving them out in the woods for pickup by the Other Express is purely a show invention.
If he is giving his sons "to the woods", perhaps the weirwood maw DOES act as a sacrificial altar, or a doorway. I'm now having this visual of Viktor in Underworld, who is woken from his underground sleep when the blood of a victim drips through the floor and into his little coffin chamber thingy. What if Others are "born" in this same way? The life force of one of Craster's sons goes through the roots and awakens some sleeper....the new being is Craster's son, but isn't.
But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I.
This is the quote that has always confounded me. Jon prays to the Old Gods, and assumedly so does Mormont. Presumably so do the free folk. But then, who are the "crueler gods" that are NOT the same as the Old Gods?
He says that Craster gives his sons to the woods as offerings.
Good catch! Quite different indeed, unless the greenseers are then taking these sacrifices to make Others....
I made this point on Heresy so many times I thought I was speaking in an empty room.And Feather I came yo the same conclusion you did when looking at v6 prologue. We get this imagery during his progress.He goes into the Weirwoods then into every thing else and exalted saying "I am the wood and everything in it." And that's the answer right there as to who is getting the babes...the woods and the Greenseers that live in it.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Greenseers are not the only ones who go bump in the Haunted Forest.
A funny quote from LC Mormont
"The gods are good; Craster’s still there."
And this line about Craster from one of the rangers.
Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. “And worse,” the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. “There’s a cold smell to that one, there is."
But we don't know who Craster's gods are.Or should I say he doesn't, nor does the watch. What I think is its the same group of things that seen differently by different people depending on what they believe.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Well, I wouldn't say Craster doesn't know who his gods are. He has his own beliefs and rituals that he follows. Looking at that scene from Whitetree (Craster's hometown) with the burnt offerings in the weirwood mouth and his present day standings at his own keep, Craster may have changed the way he worships.
But, I don't think any of the Night's Watchmen truly know nor most of the free folk. Hmmmm. I don't recall Mance and the gang showing any reverence for any gods. Jon seems more pious than the wildlings he meets. Tormund is titled as 'Speaker to Gods' but he never talks about it.
Yeah,but what does Craster visualize or see? Is it the wws ,the wights? And you know what i feel about their agency in all of this.
I thought your main theory was the children were left to die of exposure?
Yes and i futher explained on Heresy( i will look for the link) how the ritual exposure played into "the cold" which i believe is an extention of greenseeing abilities actually took the children and i used Mormont's quote and V6s quote about "The wood' as a correlation as to who actually is getting the babies.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"