Post by kinglittlefinger on Sept 12, 2017 4:36:17 GMT
I've always suspected Dawn might actually be an Other's sword, as I THINK in AGoT prologue it's specifically described as pale as milkglass. And frankly, and Other's sword would only make sense being named Ice, so Ice becoming Dawn somewhere along the line isn't too far fetched IMO.
So if BtB gets an Other's sword somehow (his Other bride??) and forges it into Lightbringer by thrusting it into Nissa Nissa Dayne's heart, that would connect Stark's Ice to Dayne's Dawn. And it's said BtB also raised Storm's End, so he got pretty far south at some point, he could've come across a Dayne somewhere.
Going back to the theory of sentient swords, I noticed this yesterday:
Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright;Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?" Tyrion VIII, Storm
Soul points to sentience, no? If Valyrian steel swords has a soul, I most definitely suspect Dawn has one too!
I've always suspected Dawn might actually be an Other's sword, as I THINK in AGoT prologue it's specifically described as pale as milkglass. And frankly, and Other's sword would only make sense being named Ice, so Ice becoming Dawn somewhere along the line isn't too far fetched IMO.
Yup! Not milkglass, but crystal. And definitely alive with light. Moonlight--which is arguably white and milky. Just like the Black Gate--A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight. Storm, Bran IV
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. Game, Prologue
The idea of a sword being dangerous to use, being misused--we get that in the story of Just Maid. Gallon only unsheathed it against supernatural foes. Only three times.
"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair." Feast, Brienne IV
So--If the sword was misused, it could arguably need to be taken from whomever was misusing.
So if BtB gets an Other's sword somehow (his Other bride??) and forges it into Lightbringer by thrusting it into Nissa Nissa Dayne's heart, that would connect Stark's Ice to Dayne's Dawn.
Maybe--Galladon's sword is called "Just Maid"--given him by a woman who loved him.
Am wondering if that's a trace of the story of the Night's Queen. . . . and also Nissa Nissa.
Going back to the theory of sentient swords, I noticed this yesterday:
Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright;Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?" Tyrion VIII, Storm
If Valyrian steel swords has a soul, I most definitely suspect Dawn has one too!
Makes sense to me.
Especially if Dawn is weirwood.
And given the story of Just Maid--Brienne describes the sword's blows as a "kiss."
Sounds like Just Maid might have been sentient, too.
Last Edit: Sept 16, 2017 20:18:00 GMT by SlyWren: Emphasis
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
And given the story of Just Maid--Brienne describes the sword's blows as a "kiss."
Sounds like Just Maid might have been sentient, too.
I think the strickt rules for who gets to wield Dawn is the best indication for her being sentient (and yes, I see Dawn as female). And the Just Maid story can point to why those are so important so many thousand years later. Just Maid was most certainly sentient methinks! My headcannon says Varyrian swords that are often described as sentient/aminated, but not regular steel swords. Then there is only castleforged or not. But my headcannon is sorely lacking in sword lore. Update: Seems like I was wrong here, as when Arya sticks the squire with Needle's pointy end at the inn, Needle gives him mercy. And Needle is castle forged steel, and that was a rather personal description from a sword's POV. If Dawn is weirwood or not, I'm not sure. I have seen your thread, I just don't have any input to give for or against at this time.
This made me think of those crystal sculls that are thought by some to be very old. One of those are supposed to lead light through it's crystaline structure in such a way that the light comes out of the eyesockets. A crystal sword having a structure that makes it seem alive with light?
Last Edit: Sept 22, 2017 19:03:34 GMT by shymaid: Updated headcannon and rebellious letters!
Lol yes. But when it comes down to it, aren't we all beings made of ice? (water made flesh)
Indeed.
New crackpot theory... what if there were 3 moons in the ASOIAF verse. Dragons came from one (it is known) and Others came from the other (see what I did there) and the lost of two moons messed up the orbit (somehow). Maybe I need to call LmL
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
New crackpot theory... what if there were 3 moons in the ASOIAF verse. Dragons came from one (it is known) and Others came from the other (see what I did there) and the lost of two moons messed up the orbit (somehow). Maybe I need to call LmL
Love it! I think it could work with LmL's theory if the dragon moon collided with the other moon (see I did it too), which destroyed both moons and caused moon fragments (in the form of meteors) to rain down on Westeros. This led to the Hammer of the Waters and the dust stirred up blocked out the sun, causing the LN. (LmL has a comet hitting a moon, but I see no reason why it couldn't be a moon-on-moon collision...) In fact, Nissa Nissa means Moon Moon, so there is already the implication of two moons...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
So, I was rereading TWOIAF, and I noticed something peculiar at the very end of the Skagos section:
Skagos has often been a source of trouble for the Starks—both as kings when they sought to conquer it and as lords when they fought to keep its fealty. Indeed, as recently as the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen (Daeron the Good), the isle rose up against the Lord of Winterfell—a rebellion that lasted years and claimed the lives of thousands of others, including that of Barthogan Stark, Lord of Winterfell (called Barth Blacksword), before finally being put down.
Barth Blacksword? Why? What does this name mean? Yes we know that Ice is black (as are all VS swords), but didn't all lords of Winterfell have Ice, given that it was acquired 400 years ago? So why was this one named Blacksword?
Do you (anyone who wants to answer this) think it's possible that Ice was actually acquired much more recently than we think? By this Barth Blacksword fellow? It's the only scenario I can think of that would make the name make sense - if he was the first Stark to wield a VS sword.
We are given NO information about where the modern-day Ice came from, which seems suspicious given that GRRM otherwise makes a pretty big deal about this being the Stark sword and how special it is. Anyway, I would love some opinions, b/c if the VS Ice was indeed picked up by lord Barth Stark, some pretty cool origin theories would be possible.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
So, I was rereading TWOIAF, and I noticed something peculiar at the very end of the Skagos section:
Skagos has often been a source of trouble for the Starks—both as kings when they sought to conquer it and as lords when they fought to keep its fealty. Indeed, as recently as the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen (Daeron the Good), the isle rose up against the Lord of Winterfell—a rebellion that lasted years and claimed the lives of thousands of others, including that of Barthogan Stark, Lord of Winterfell (called Barth Blacksword), before finally being put down.
Barth Blacksword? Why? What does this name mean? Yes we know that Ice is black (as are all VS swords), but didn't all lords of Winterfell have Ice, given that it was acquired 400 years ago? So why was this one named Blacksword?
Do you (anyone who wants to answer this) think it's possible that Ice was actually acquired much more recently than we think? By this Barth Blacksword fellow? It's the only scenario I can think of that would make the name make sense - if he was the first Stark to wield a VS sword.
We are given NO information about where the modern-day Ice came from, which seems suspicious given that GRRM otherwise makes a pretty big deal about this being the Stark sword and how special it is. Anyway, I would love some opinions, b/c if the VS Ice was indeed picked up by lord Barth Stark, some pretty cool origin theories would be possible.
If I recall correctly, the Valyrians set up a trade outpost around that same time (4-500 years ago), and that fit nicely with the Starks yearning for an impressive Ice replacement.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
If I recall correctly, the Valyrians set up a trade outpost around that same time (4-500 years ago), and that fit nicely with the Starks yearning for an impressive Ice replacement.
You're right, that sounds familiar. It has just always bothered me that we are not told more about the sword's origins. We assume it was purchased from Valyrians, but we don't know this for a fact, and we don't know who the seller was, or where the transaction occurred. Did a king Stark travel to Dragonstone carrying all the wealth of Winterfell to buy a VS blade? How is this guy never mentioned - neither in the main story nor in TWOIAF? He should be celebrated within the Stark family and there should be at least one song about his voyage. And he should be remembered with an appropriate descriptor ... such as Blacksword.
So I like the idea of Ice having been acquired later than officially stated, and maybe in a manner that is best shared with no one. Maybe a Stark got lucky and killed someone in battle who had a VS sword, or was simply present when someone else did. Maybe the Skagosi had taken the sword from a ship they lured onto the rocks, and Barth took it from the Skagosi. In any case, I wonder if perhaps the sword was not legitimately purchased, and for this reason, the story told to the world was that it had been in the family for 200 years already. It's not like anyone would bother to research this, and within a few generations even the Starks would come to believe it.
Also - why a greatsword? I believe it was you who convinced me that Ned wouldn't have carried Ice in battle, b/c it would have been too big and unwieldy. It was used almost exclusively for ceremonial purposes, such as beheadings. So if the Starks were to go buy a VS sword, wouldn't they want to buy one that they can use? Not to mention such a giant sword would have cost twice as much... and the Starks are neither wealthy nor are they an arrogant or boastful House that would try so hard to have the biggest sword. Something's off...
But I am aware that you are more interested in the other Ice (which, realistically, will probably end up being much more important than the VS version). I just find it curious that on the one hand, VS swords are insanely rare and valuable, and on the other, Houses lose them (Targaryen) or acquire them (Stark) and there is no mention whatsoever of how this occurred.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”