How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)

I know you do. Funny how you and I tend to lock horns more often when we agree on a premise, yet differ on the subtleties of it, than we do when we fundamentally disagree on a topic. LOL

I know you are. LOL And I am simply saying you are misunderstanding my meaning. Though that is likely my own fault. I didn't explain it very carefully. Twas only a quick quip.

Never. To the contrary, I take the world book as an enormous and welcome revelation in this regard. You were not around in those days, but long before the world book arrived I was making a case for Bran the Builder as the man who sought out the children of the forest to learn their ancient ways. So you can imagine my orgasm when I read the new tidbit of info in the world book! Or mayhaps you'd rather not... LOL

Indeed it does not. It adds to the novels though, wouldn't you agree? In the novels we are only told of one man gaining aid from the children of the forest to stop the Others, and that is the Last Hero.

In the world book, the Last Hero's journey is described again, but only after (iirc) we read of Brandon the Builder seeking aid from the children of the forest to stop the Others.



Sure, as I stated at the onset:


Yup. We agree. We also hear (from Benjen) of the Wall being a sword to the east (where Dawn rises... ) of Castle Black, and a snake to the west.

Still, the LH's intent was not to go get a new sword. I agree he ended up with one, but that was not his sole purpose. Instead, we are told, "So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost." I suppose that could refer to swords, but I think not.

This quote from Old Nan is what reminds me of the story of BtB as told by Maester Yandel, as in the 12000 years or so of human history in Westeros only one man is ever said to have received aid from the children of the forest in the fight against the Others. The Last Hero.


Indeed. Though if we dismiss everything characters subscribe to as mere conjecture, then we can assert absolutely nothing with certainty. The Wall might not even exist, after all. Characters have merely subscribed to its existence.

Still, your point is well taken. GRRM does enjoy adding such caveats of uncertainty at every turn, and when it comes to the North, the Wall, the Others, and the connections between them, all we have are bits and pieces of oral history.

Agreed. It doesn't. As I stated, it is only my opinion that the world book seems to marry the two archetypes in a way the novels did not. That is a statement of my personal interpretation and nothing more.

I would only point out, again, that it is very interesting the world book attributed an act to BtB that previously had only been attributed to the Last Hero in the novels. You are well aware of why this interests me.

Was Bran the Builder one of the 13 brave companions? It seems unlikely to me that if he wasn't, all that much importance would have been placed upon the Last Hero. And, if he was, it seems unlikely to me that he was anyone other than the final survivor who lost his dozen brothers.

Then of course, I find it interesting that if this was indeed the case, why Brandon's name was removed from the oral history of the Last Hero's journey...which leads me back to the 13th Lord Commander.


Indeed. As I originally stated, it was only:


LOL well, first and foremost, it is not a "Heretic thing." Heresy has no stake in such claims, contrary to what you might've heard.

As I've told you before, you are a Heretic. And, like many Heretics, you believe the world book is canon. I've made your same argument before as it happens, nearly verbatim, in Heresy. I've argued before that if it bears the Maker's Mark then it is canon. That makes the world book canon. What I do not like about the world book is that it is a collaborative effort, and somewhat tainted by influence from E&L. Not enough to make me discard it completely, of course, but enough to make me place it below the novels in terms of import. There are threads at the W detailing its errors and omissions.

But alas, this is off topic, and the reason I included a link to the appropriate thread for such a discussion.

Yup. Agreed.

Indeed. But as GRRM himself stated "semicanon" is a good word for what it is. It is pretty damn close to canon, but not canon. It was written with the help of "maesters" (E&L) and so their errors have crept in. But again, that is a conversation for the other thread.