Post by SlyWren on Feb 29, 2016 1:02:44 GMT
voice : Okay--long response warning!
Jaime doesn't want to be a crutch, he wants to kill for his king. Clearly, that king is Rhaegar.
And defend the kingdom--which is also what KG do.
But, yes, Jaime's contempt for Aerys starts setting in as soon as he's white-cloaked. He knows why he was "chosen." He just figured it out too late.
Not denying that--but there is a difference between feeling more loyal or even only loyal to one party and actively plotting with said party against another.
Jaime can be loyal to Rhaegar without actively plotting to kill Aerys. I'm just struggling to find "plotting" on Jaime's part re: the killing of Aerys.
It seems to me each and every one of them was doing Rhaegar's bidding, and doing it well. We can assume they merely sought to lay down some woe for the usurper on the battlefield, but that is not the same thing as guarding the king. Unless, Rhaegar was already the king in their minds.
If so, Ned's dream convo with them is buyer's remorse? Just chest-thumping at Ned? Really seems like Hightower especially is Aerys' man. And Jaime is the false brother who should burn in seven hells--for killing Aerys. Just not sure it's this cut and dried for these men--Aerys vs. Rhaegar. For Tywin or Cersei, absolutely. For Jaime or the KG? Jaime believes in honor. And the Tower Trio call him false--for killing Aerys.
None of the kingsguard were guarding the king, they were guarding Rhaegar. Either Jaime acted alone on a whim, or he too was helping Rhaegar usurp his father.
Jaime does say remember that Crakehall didn't seem surprised to see that Jaime had killed the king. But Jaime, before remembering that, remembers that he'd thought it useless to pretend he hadn't killed the king. Thinks there was no way for him to vanish and "let some braggart steal the praise or take the blame."
Which sounds like
A. He did think of running and not letting people know what he'd done.
B. He was somewhat ambivalent in what he thought of what he'd done.
Which sounds less like he was in cahoots with Tywin than he ended up doing something Tywin liked.
Also,
Why would Jaime lie about this to Brienne? And this really sounds like "we" were lost (the King's Landing consortium) vs. "Yay!!! We won! I'm in charge of the king and can take him out!" And it sound like Jaime only decided to take out Aerys after Rossart told him that Aerys wouldn't yield--meaning he'd burn the city. Only then does he kill the pyromancer and the king.
Though one thing in potential favor of your overall argument: when Jaime goes after Ned, he won't kill him after Ned's wounded. Jaime finds out later that Tywin's not mad that Jaime attacked Ned. He's angry Jaime didn't finish it once he had Ned in his power. And Jaime is clearly a pawn of Cersei on minimal info at times. So--Jaime as perhaps knowing his father has a "plan B." But only follows through HIS way--after he knows himself that Aerys is going nuclear.
Though some of his convo with Brienne seems off if this is the case. . .
But Jaime's telling Brienne all sorts of things she doesn't "require." She ends up understanding him. But he thinks more than once "why am I saying this to her?"
As for not sullying Rhaegar's rep--even in his own thoughts? And since he paints Aerys as so vile, describes the maps of the wildfire, etc., might that not serve to show Brienne that Rhaegar was "justified?" Especially since Jaime's telling everything?
Or the one softening the blow for Mad Dad by giving Jaime a good reason why Rhaegar can't persuade Aerys otherwise. Even Jaime notes, after Rhaegar's gone, that Aerys insists on keeping him close. . . Aerys wanted him to stay. At best, Rhaegar agreed with and helped enforce the king's desires.
Perhaps--and you might have an echo when Jaime tells the KG not to obey the king in everything--that their honor matters more. They should obey him and Cersei and Tywin instead.
Wait--so you're assuming Rhaegar didn't know about the wildfire maps and caches? Jaime knows about them in enormous detail. If Rhaegar didn't know, I'd buy the argument. But if he did know AND actively chose to leave his family in place (instead of being coerced into it by Aerys)--he's losing his "Best Dad Ever!" mug and going straight to hell.
Remember this is the Mad King. He has already forsaken Rhaegar as his heir, and denied him his rights of primogeniture. He has taken his wife and children hostage.
If they marched Rhaegar up to their king, shackled for treason, I think Wisdom Hallyne would be summoned for Rhaegar, Elia, and their children... not Jaime and Jonothor.
Very possible. But--I said "risk" not "certainty." And who in their right minds wants to risk a wildfire playdate with Aerys?
Plus--Aerys only made Viserys the heir after Rhaegar died on the Trident, right?
Actually, he laments letting Robert in, not Ned.
But yes, Jaime is conflicted in that scene--but conflicted, uncertain. he wants more of his rep included, but still knows there isn't much to enter.
If he's a 16-year-old that thought of vanishing, but stayed because he couldn't, I'm going with "sarcastic defiance."
Yes--losing lions. But Jaime says "It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms."
Jaime may be a lion, but he's also an inmate of the lost keep. Lost to Tywin. "We were lost."
Not a vote. Not an impeaching. A usurpation () with the consent of the people. Showing his father mercy might even have helped his legitimacy, given people's reactions to Aerys' appearance at Harrenhal.
In one sense, it does make it easier to kill the king. No doubt. But Robert undermined himself with pardoning Jaime. One assumes Rhaegar, as Aerys' father, would be in the same boat with the Lannisters. Perhaps Tywin would have embraced it and expected Jaime to so the same. Though he does not say so to Jaime. But it's a risk. Depends on where Rhaegar wanted to go.
It was either one hell of a risk to take, a desperate hope, or a perfect plan.
And if Jaime had thought anything of the sort when describing when he stabbed the king. . . I know using absence of evidence as evidence is tricky at best. But he thinks about "we were lost." He says so. He says he only killed Rosary AFTER Aerys refused to make terms with Tywin. And Jaime knew it meant he'd burn the city.
Perhaps Rhaegar told him, "hold your sword until you see the red of his matches!" But really seems like Jaime waited until other options were gone. Snapping.
I can't prove it, but I guarantee Tywin was behind the Defiance of Duskendale. Lions roar defiance, and one need only look at the Red Wedding to see how Tywin disguises treachery behind guest right when capturing kings.
Oh, absolutely. And I could absolutely see Jaime's convincing Aerys to make terms, only to have Tywin kill the freak. If Tywin killed him, absolutely. But Jaime. . . .harder to see that with what were given. It still really looks like a snapping. Like Jaime often sort of "snaps" and acts impulsively.
Amen.
I'm trying to think of an echo here, and I can't find one. Plus, Tywin doesn't always seem to be the best judge of his children. Sometimes, yes, But not always.
That's precisely why I have drawn this conclusion. Jaime wants to go with Rhaegar. And where is Rhaegar going?
Jaime doesn't want to be a crutch, he wants to kill for his king. Clearly, that king is Rhaegar.
And defend the kingdom--which is also what KG do.
But, yes, Jaime's contempt for Aerys starts setting in as soon as he's white-cloaked. He knows why he was "chosen." He just figured it out too late.
But it is rather apparent that Jaime is Rhaegar's man, and Rhaegar is not Aerys' man. Rhaegar is speaking treason, and rather than balk or bat an eye, Jaime is begging to go fight for him.
Not denying that--but there is a difference between feeling more loyal or even only loyal to one party and actively plotting with said party against another.
Jaime can be loyal to Rhaegar without actively plotting to kill Aerys. I'm just struggling to find "plotting" on Jaime's part re: the killing of Aerys.
Or were they?
It seems to me each and every one of them was doing Rhaegar's bidding, and doing it well. We can assume they merely sought to lay down some woe for the usurper on the battlefield, but that is not the same thing as guarding the king. Unless, Rhaegar was already the king in their minds.
If so, Ned's dream convo with them is buyer's remorse? Just chest-thumping at Ned? Really seems like Hightower especially is Aerys' man. And Jaime is the false brother who should burn in seven hells--for killing Aerys. Just not sure it's this cut and dried for these men--Aerys vs. Rhaegar. For Tywin or Cersei, absolutely. For Jaime or the KG? Jaime believes in honor. And the Tower Trio call him false--for killing Aerys.
Tywin suspected Jaime would kill Aerys. We must ask ourselves why. Why would Tywin suspect such treachery from his son? His son, who was Rhaegar's man and knighted by Arthur Dayne himself.
None of the kingsguard were guarding the king, they were guarding Rhaegar. Either Jaime acted alone on a whim, or he too was helping Rhaegar usurp his father.
Jaime does say remember that Crakehall didn't seem surprised to see that Jaime had killed the king. But Jaime, before remembering that, remembers that he'd thought it useless to pretend he hadn't killed the king. Thinks there was no way for him to vanish and "let some braggart steal the praise or take the blame."
Which sounds like
A. He did think of running and not letting people know what he'd done.
B. He was somewhat ambivalent in what he thought of what he'd done.
Which sounds less like he was in cahoots with Tywin than he ended up doing something Tywin liked.
Also,
"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant. Storm, Jaime V
Why would Jaime lie about this to Brienne? And this really sounds like "we" were lost (the King's Landing consortium) vs. "Yay!!! We won! I'm in charge of the king and can take him out!" And it sound like Jaime only decided to take out Aerys after Rossart told him that Aerys wouldn't yield--meaning he'd burn the city. Only then does he kill the pyromancer and the king.
Though one thing in potential favor of your overall argument: when Jaime goes after Ned, he won't kill him after Ned's wounded. Jaime finds out later that Tywin's not mad that Jaime attacked Ned. He's angry Jaime didn't finish it once he had Ned in his power. And Jaime is clearly a pawn of Cersei on minimal info at times. So--Jaime as perhaps knowing his father has a "plan B." But only follows through HIS way--after he knows himself that Aerys is going nuclear.
Though some of his convo with Brienne seems off if this is the case. . .
Well, I'm not sure that is a detail Brienne would require. Brienne is sworn to rebels: Renly and Catelyn (individuals from two houses that united against Rhaegar's intentions - who betrothed and married a third). And Jaime is a Rhaegar-loyalist. It might be that he does not wish to sully the reputation of his king.
But Jaime's telling Brienne all sorts of things she doesn't "require." She ends up understanding him. But he thinks more than once "why am I saying this to her?"
As for not sullying Rhaegar's rep--even in his own thoughts? And since he paints Aerys as so vile, describes the maps of the wildfire, etc., might that not serve to show Brienne that Rhaegar was "justified?" Especially since Jaime's telling everything?
Rhaegar is definitely the one calling the shots.
Or the one softening the blow for Mad Dad by giving Jaime a good reason why Rhaegar can't persuade Aerys otherwise. Even Jaime notes, after Rhaegar's gone, that Aerys insists on keeping him close. . . Aerys wanted him to stay. At best, Rhaegar agreed with and helped enforce the king's desires.
Mayhaps it did not take his sworn brothers as long to see that Tywin's plan was the right one.
Perhaps--and you might have an echo when Jaime tells the KG not to obey the king in everything--that their honor matters more. They should obey him and Cersei and Tywin instead.
Not if Rhaegar knew his royal sire wouldn't be alive much longer.
Wait--so you're assuming Rhaegar didn't know about the wildfire maps and caches? Jaime knows about them in enormous detail. If Rhaegar didn't know, I'd buy the argument. But if he did know AND actively chose to leave his family in place (instead of being coerced into it by Aerys)--he's losing his "Best Dad Ever!" mug and going straight to hell.
Would they? I don't think Rhaegar would have much room for denial considering Aerys had acted upon this same rumor to surprised his son at the Tourney of Harrenhal but two years prior.
Remember this is the Mad King. He has already forsaken Rhaegar as his heir, and denied him his rights of primogeniture. He has taken his wife and children hostage.
If they marched Rhaegar up to their king, shackled for treason, I think Wisdom Hallyne would be summoned for Rhaegar, Elia, and their children... not Jaime and Jonothor.
Very possible. But--I said "risk" not "certainty." And who in their right minds wants to risk a wildfire playdate with Aerys?
Plus--Aerys only made Viserys the heir after Rhaegar died on the Trident, right?
Actually, he laments letting Robert in, not Ned.
But yes, Jaime is conflicted in that scene--but conflicted, uncertain. he wants more of his rep included, but still knows there isn't much to enter.
If one kills the king, sits on the throne, and flies the roaring Lion of Lannister over the ramparts...which is that?
If he's a 16-year-old that thought of vanishing, but stayed because he couldn't, I'm going with "sarcastic defiance."
Yup. I think House Lannister was on the losing side, and it clearly wasn't the Mad King's. Once Robert defeated Rhaegar on the Trident, the lion had to salvage the situation with false concessions.
Yes--losing lions. But Jaime says "It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms."
Jaime may be a lion, but he's also an inmate of the lost keep. Lost to Tywin. "We were lost."
If it was a caucus race, maybe. Not in a monarchy. One does not impeach a tyrant. One does not hold a primary to challenge a king, let alone a Mad King.
Again, this only works if we are talking about a popular election.
Not a vote. Not an impeaching. A usurpation () with the consent of the people. Showing his father mercy might even have helped his legitimacy, given people's reactions to Aerys' appearance at Harrenhal.
In one sense, it does make it easier to kill the king. No doubt. But Robert undermined himself with pardoning Jaime. One assumes Rhaegar, as Aerys' father, would be in the same boat with the Lannisters. Perhaps Tywin would have embraced it and expected Jaime to so the same. Though he does not say so to Jaime. But it's a risk. Depends on where Rhaegar wanted to go.
Jaime snap? No, Rhaegar trusted his father to snap, and he trusted the Young Lion to be a young lion. After all, it had promised to obey...
It was either one hell of a risk to take, a desperate hope, or a perfect plan.
And if Jaime had thought anything of the sort when describing when he stabbed the king. . . I know using absence of evidence as evidence is tricky at best. But he thinks about "we were lost." He says so. He says he only killed Rosary AFTER Aerys refused to make terms with Tywin. And Jaime knew it meant he'd burn the city.
Perhaps Rhaegar told him, "hold your sword until you see the red of his matches!" But really seems like Jaime waited until other options were gone. Snapping.
Quickly and repeatedly, we see Tywin and Rhaegar's interests aligned. Even Barristan remarks on this connection, and he isn't exactly the best of detectives.
I can't prove it, but I guarantee Tywin was behind the Defiance of Duskendale. Lions roar defiance, and one need only look at the Red Wedding to see how Tywin disguises treachery behind guest right when capturing kings.
Oh, absolutely. And I could absolutely see Jaime's convincing Aerys to make terms, only to have Tywin kill the freak. If Tywin killed him, absolutely. But Jaime. . . .harder to see that with what were given. It still really looks like a snapping. Like Jaime often sort of "snaps" and acts impulsively.
LOL! Indeed. But, I do think Tywin and Rhaegar had many mutual goals.
Amen.
Did he have faith in his son's mental instability, or his son's loyalty to Rhaegar Targaryen?
I'm trying to think of an echo here, and I can't find one. Plus, Tywin doesn't always seem to be the best judge of his children. Sometimes, yes, But not always.