While we don't know the age of Arthur Dayne he was another member of Rhaegar's young lord coalition.
Actually we do know Arthur's rough age. We can figure it out through a variety of things, mostly being that he's known to be a KG by at least 276 as he wins the Lannisport tourney as one, but basically it works out to be that he's born roughly around 254, and therefore he's 27 in 281 when the Kingswood Brotherhood campaign was happening.
Which also is of course younger than Barristan's 44 years at that time.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I always figured that was something Aerys was more prone to do during the early years of his reign. He was a young man and wanted other young men around him. A new King and a new change of the council. One more thing to consider: after LC Gerold Hightower was injured in a fight against the Kingswood Brotherhood he chose Arthur Dayne to lead the fight against them over say the Hero of the War of Ninepenny Kings Barristan Selmy. While we don't know the age of Arthur Dayne he was another member of Rhaegar's young lord coalition.
I think it helps determine a big reason why Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Rickard Stark all formed their alliance though--they were outside of Aerys' inner circle because he saw them as too old (truth be told Hoster and Rickard were likely only 5 - 10 years older than Aerys--but if my generational breakdown is accurate, that's spans the dividing line between one generation and the next).
However as markg171 noted, it's something he continued doing afterwards when his son's (who I'd estimate was at the other end of Aerys' generation, but just within the confines of it--yes I'm saying father and son are of the same generation socially; that's what happens when you have teenaged parents) cohorts were coming of age.
The only old man we see Aerys associate with is the alchemists--and I think we know the reason why there--that green liquid flame.
But I think you get a picture when you think of things this way:
220 - 239 = Artist (Jaehaerys II, Duncan, Olenna, Barristan, Hoster, Jon, Rickard, Quellon, Tytos) - Jon Arryn, Quellon Greyjoy, & Hoster Tully both display the common trope of elder Artists holding together a wide-consensus that only they can hold together through an intricate series of compromises, deals, and diplomacy, that falls apart upon their deaths, Olenna is also in this camp for much the same abilities. Barristan in his advice to Daenerys is most definitely an Artist archetype. Tytos is the most negative portrayal of the Artist archetype (especially as a parent) in the series with his indecisive and sensitive nature, forcing his son Tywin to forge with blood & a strict vision what Tytos should have been able to forge together with compromise and diplomacy. Duncan & Jaehaerys seem "right" to fill out the generation. Rickard is an Artist archetype (his demand for due process by showing up in armor for his Trial by Combat, his politicking with Hoster & Jon, his presumably stressed relationship with Lyanna, etc.) who thank his lucky stars is succeeded by a Nomad who is more responsible than his elder brother would've been.
They largely fill the Artist (sometimes referred to as Adaptive) archetype role, which in storytelling but also real life is commonly portrayed as the compromising statesmen who are always seeking diplomatic resolutions to issues where possible. A subset of this group are the lone rebels who buck the trend of the otherwise quiet and conformist majority of their peers. Largely they wish to follow in the footsteps of their elders, but are willing to compromise when they recognize that something of their elder's is at fault, but they're not willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater like their younger peers.
"Artist generations are born during a great war or other historical crisis, a time when great worldly perils boil off the complexity of life and public consensus, aggressive institutions, and personal sacrifice prevail. Artists grow up overprotected by adults preoccupied with the crisis, come of age as the sensitive young adults of a post-crisis world, break free as indecisive midlife leaders during a spiritual awakening, and age into empathic post-awakening elders. By virtue of this location in history, such generations tend to be remembered for their quiet years of rising adulthood and their midlife years of flexible, consensus-building leadership. Their principle endowments are often in the domain of pluralism, expertise and due process. These have been sensitive and complex social technicians, advocates of fair play and the politics of inclusion. Positive reputations have revolved around them being thought of as caring, open-minded, and an expert. Negative reputations have revolved around them being thought of as sentimental, complicating, indecisive."
I argue the above cohorts as an Artist archetype generation because their childhood was marked by the following:
Wildling Invasion, Battle at Long Lake, Peake Uprising, Great Council of 233, Second Red Spring, Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, Betrothal Scandals, Aegon V faces inabilities to pass reforms due to lacking dragons in his opinion and far too conservative and rebellious lords.
After 241, while there are rebellions they're spread farther apart and far more minor.
They are the leaders and commanders by the time the Ninepenny Kings War rolls around, in the prime of middle age or just entering middle age. They are largely skipped over in a chance to rule on a National level, though they usually prove to be (where they rise to be lords of their own lands) capable compromisers and coalition builders, keeping the more radical, idiotic, and splintery elements of their juniors in check. This is the generation that attempts to filter out the follies of the younger generations, unfortunately they are not wholly successful, and death does come to claim them eventually.
I then break down the next generational age grouping as such:
240 - 260 = "The Mad" Generation - Prophet (Aerys II, Tywin, Elia, Oberyn, Bonnifer, Rhaegar, Arthur, Kevan, Gemma, Gerion, Tygett, Mace, Balon, Doran, the High Sparrow) - So named because they're almost all characterized as "mad" or "obsessed" about something (the other meaning of "mad"). To some extent they seem to come off as a critique of Baby Boomers by a Boomer (Martin is one himself) who dislikes what they've become with age, while admiring the potential that they held in their youth. Tywin, as I mentioned above, had to do double duty for his ineffective father, but what marks him as a Prophet rather than an Artist is that he does so with an uncompromising vision in his mind's eye of what House Lannister should be. An Artist would accept multiple views of how things ought to be, but Tywin's singular driving vision is what really makes him stand out as a Prophet archetype. The High Sparrow is more typical of the type of character which gives this generation the name of the Prophet archetype. Balon is a Prophet who's succored heavily on religion and conservative rebelliousness.
Prophet (sometimes referred to as Idealist) -- commonly portrayed as the Wise Old Man/Woman in literature, OR the obviously morally right young protagonist campaigning against a corrupt old system headed by an old king who sacrifices the young to an outright evil monster (essentially Perseus; or Marina from Shakespeare's Pericles); unlike bland Heroes (listed below) these protagonists have moral convictions to lead them on the path that they know must be done--it isn't a matter of "duty" for them, but one of what is morally the "right thing to do"--with often the "right thing to do" being what THEY define as "right", not what society defines as "right".
"Prophet generations are born after a great war or other crisis, during a time of rejuvenated community life and consensus around a new societal order. Prophets grow up as the increasingly indulged children of this post-crisis era, come of age as narcissistic young crusaders of a spiritual awakening, cultivate principle as moralistic midlifers, and emerge as wise elders guiding another historical crisis. By virtue of this location in history, such generations tend to be remembered for their coming-of-age passion and their principled elder stewardship. Their principle endowments are often in the domain of vision, values, and religion. These were principled moralists, summoners of human sacrifice, and wagers of righteous wars. Positive reputations have revolved around them being thought of as principled, resolute, and creative. Negative reputations have revolved around them being thought of as narcissistic, presumptuous, and ruthless."
The "Mad" Generation largely has most of the negative traits of a Prophet Generation, with very few of them having the redeeming better qualities. The admitted and labelled "best" of the crop of their generation seems to have been killed off during Robert's Rebellion (Ser Arthur, Elia, Rhaegar, etc.).
Post by whitewolfstark on Mar 23, 2016 3:00:25 GMT
The more:
You can tell there's a dividing line between the generations around 240 somewhere in small samples like the difference between Hoster and the Blackfish. But also in proclamations like Aerys getting rid of all the old men who aren't of his generation and then proceeding to begin depending upon Steffon, Tywin, etc.
There's then the similarity in personalities between Aerys' cohorts and the differences found in those just a bit older that you see in their actions, beliefs, and legacies between each.
Those born in the 230s are more subtle and behind the scenes folks--willing to work together and keep things and people together. Those born in the 240s are more forward, direct, forceful, and striving for some form of ideal greatness--even if that ideal greatness is already a single vision in their mind (Tywin) or they attempt to find it but fail many many times at doing so (Aerys).
As we saw in her first chapter, she says that they ran from Braavos and then went to a bunch of different places. But never once that they returned to Braavos. Yet here’s Dany, I don’t know, maybe age 4 or 5, or something like that, on a trip to Braavos. How? Did she just forget to include in her first recalling of everywhere she’d been that she’d been to Braavos multiple times and that her memory of their wanderings isn’t correct? Or is it more likely that she actually remembers the one, and only trip she ever made to Braavos. And it’s obviously not when she was a newborn child.
1. Well done!
2. I had missed this specific point completely. Yes--a trip TO Braavos seems odd for dragonlordlings. Though we have a hint of something like this with what Lady Dyanna noticed here: thelasthearth.freeforums.net/post/24512/thread.
3. On the quote though:
Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a greatgreensail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish." Storm, Dany I
We get a lot of talk about colorful sails in the novels. But green sails? In all of the books (including World Book) the only other mention of green sails is from Davos.
"Lysa Arryn's dead," Lord Godric said, "murdered by some singer. Lord Littlefinger rules the Vale now. Wherearethepirates?" When Davos did not answer, he rapped his spoon against the table. "The Lyseni. Torrent spied their sails from Littlesister, and before him the Flints from Widow's Watch. Orangesails, andgreen, andpink. Salladhor Saan. Where is he?" Dance, Davos I
It may be nothing, but it's gotten stuck in my head so I figured I'd inflict it on you. ::silly::
Dany's green sailed ship--a Lyseni pirate ship? At the very least, seems like it's Lyseni.
If nothing else, it might fit with your travelogue breakdown.
But it might also set up for the Lyseni and/or pirates being involved.
And they are in the area for lemons, yes???? Back in a bit to dig into the rest of your ideas--again: Fabulous. :::
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
And while this is an aside, credit should be made to I believe the user Voice for pointing out that Viserys’ “ship with black sails” sounds quite a lot like a smuggler’s ship as Davos describes his own smuggler’s ship exactly like this, and not any official royal ship. Which we know that Rhaella at least took, because the ship was waiting for her in King’s Landing’s harbour and everything. Rhaella at the very least left King’s Landing officially, but Viserys seems to have been smuggled out.
A smuggler, yes. But perhaps also a pirate? Salladhor Saan and his family have a long history of smuggling and pirating, no? And the only known green sails in the book. And they abandon Stannis cause when they realize there is no hope for payment (right before the loan comes through) . . . .
Could Salladhor and/or his family have been involved?
His ship is called the Valyrian. He knows and tells the story of Lightbringer, other things, too. May be nothing, but may also be something.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It may be nothing, but it's gotten stuck in my head so I figured I'd inflict it on you.
A great find! I'll admit I skipped right over the sails because I figured hey, some Tyroshi or Qartheen lots of people probably had green sails and it was nothing. But if only Lyseni, and possibly Saan have them, then that's a great catch.
If nothing else, it might fit with your travelogue breakdown.
Well just spitballing but off the top of my head some implications could be
- Viserys just picked up "Dany" from Lysene and she's just some random slave girl - Lysene isn't that far off from Dorne, and it's possible that Dany just got picked up from Dorne on a Lyseni ship - Dany could've been in Lysene the whole time no matter who she was, and Lys does grow lemons - I pegged Dany somewhere between 4-5, or at least young, but Dany "supposedly" doesn't go anywhere near Lys until she's probably like 12 years old based on her travelogue where Lys is the second last stop before being in Pentos, where she's either 12 turning 13, or just turned 13 given that she's 13 years old but had been there for 6 months - No real time that they ever go Lys -> Braavos, they go Lys -> Pentos. Which is below Braavos
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
It may be nothing, but it's gotten stuck in my head so I figured I'd inflict it on you.
A great find! I'll admit I skipped right over the sails because I figured hey, some Tyroshi or Qartheen lots of people probably had green sails and it was nothing. But if only Lyseni, and possibly Saan have them, then that's a great catch.
If nothing else, it might fit with your travelogue breakdown.
Well just spitballing but off the top of my head some implications could be
- Viserys just picked up "Dany" from Lysene and she's just some random slave girl - Lysene isn't that far off from Dorne, and it's possible that Dany just got picked up from Dorne on a Lyseni ship - Dany could've been in Lysene the whole time no matter who she was, and Lys does grow lemons - I pegged Dany somewhere between 4-5, or at least young, but Dany "supposedly" doesn't go anywhere near Lys until she's probably like 12 years old based on her travelogue where Lys is the second last stop before being in Pentos, where she's either 12 turning 13, or just turned 13 given that she's 13 years old but had been there for 6 months - No real time that they ever go Lys -> Braavos, they go Lys -> Pentos. Which is below Braavos
I find it far more likely that Dany could have spent her early years in Tyrosh rather that Lys.
Also Dany seems to have fond memories of Tyrosh and speaks with a Tyroshi accent.
"When I was a little girl, I loved to play in the bazaar," Dany told Ser Jorah as they wandered down the shady aisle between the stalls. "It was so alive there, all the people shouting and laughing, so many wonderful things to look at … though we seldom had enough coin to buy anything … well, except for a sausage now and again, or honeyfingers … do they have honeyfingers in the Seven Kingdoms, the kind they bake in Tyrosh?"
The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. "My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?"
"My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms," Dany told him.
And while this is an aside, credit should be made to I believe the user Voice for pointing out that Viserys’ “ship with black sails” sounds quite a lot like a smuggler’s ship as Davos describes his own smuggler’s ship exactly like this, and not any official royal ship. Which we know that Rhaella at least took, because the ship was waiting for her in King’s Landing’s harbour and everything. Rhaella at the very least left King’s Landing officially, but Viserys seems to have been smuggled out.
A smuggler, yes. But perhaps also a pirate? Salladhor Saan and his family have a long history of smuggling and pirating, no? And the only known green sails in the book. And they abandon Stannis cause when they realize there is no hope for payment (right before the loan comes through) . . . .
Could Salladhor and/or his family have been involved?
His ship is called the Valyrian. He knows and tells the story of Lightbringer, other things, too. May be nothing, but may also be something.
Also don't forget that a former Saan was a member of the Band of Nine that helped in the last Blackfyre Rebellion. Saamaro Saan aka the Last Valyrian. The world of Ice and Fire notes that he is an ancestor of Sallador Saan. Also one of Sallador's ships was named Old Mother's Son. Old Mother is the name of another Band of Nine member. An interesting connection to say the least.
Nine-and-twenty ships had set sail from the Wall. If half of them were still afloat, Davos would be shocked. Black skies, bitter winds, and lashing rains had hounded them all the way down the coast. The galleys Oledo and Old Mother's Son had been driven onto the rocks of Skagos, the isle of unicorns and cannibals where even the Blind Bastard had feared to land; the great cog Saathos Saan had foundered off the Grey Cliffs.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I find it far more likely that Dany could have spent her early years in Tyrosh rather that Lys.
Well I mean this is what we're told. Dany says she went Dragonstone -> Braavos -> Myr -> Tyrosh, so she should end in Tyrosh while young.
As to the whole "Dany remembers Tyrosh, not Braavos and this is what was originally intended" thing, that in itself doesn't really work seeing as the published version has Braavos, and GRRM has ran with it ever since. So ultimately, maybe he might've thought to have her be from Tyrosh, but he changed everything and he's never looked back.
In fact we can even see it seeing as as I covered, this itinerary
They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.
Makes zero sense.
This itinerary from the magazine
They had wandered since then, from Tyrosh to Myr, from Myr to Braavos, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place."
Actually makes perfect sense.
So he didn't just change Tyrosh/Braavos, he changed the order of places she goes, and added in new ones. It's a fundamental difference that vastly changes things. What he published doesn't add up, and continues to not add up as he writes more and more. What he first had, is just that, an itinerary.
Rather I would argue that the change from Tyrosh to Braavos is a massively important change, it's where he decides that "something" isn't right with Dany's story. Because otherwise her story's fine, there's nothing to see here, and George could've just reprinted the novels saying Tyrosh and that itinerary, and had all the later novels focus on that red door in Tyrosh. It's intentional.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Rather I would argue that the change from Tyrosh to Braavos is a massively important change, it's where he decides that "something" isn't right with Dany's story. Because otherwise her story's fine, there's nothing to see here, and George could've just reprinted the novels saying Tyrosh and that itinerary, and had all the later novels focus on that red door in Tyrosh. It's intentional.
Definitely intentional. He inserted "Braavos" as Dany's point of origin. And then goes on to describe Braavos in great detail from other POVs. None of these other POVs lead us to believe it is a place known for its open windows through which one might enjoy the scent of ripening lemons. That's 100% Red Door(ne).
I think your citation below all but proves this discrepancy is not only not-nothing, but completely purposeful with telling consequences:
And GRRM himself has recently noted that this is a great observation by the user Victarionchainbreaker while corresponding with the user in a private message:
V: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees really shouldn’t grow in Braavos’ cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepancy significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past? Thank you so much
GRRM: Very perceptive of you. Yes it does point to… well that would be telling.
And while this is an aside, credit should be made to I believe the user Voice for pointing out that Viserys’ “ship with black sails” sounds quite a lot like a smuggler’s ship as Davos describes his own smuggler’s ship exactly like this, and not any official royal ship. Which we know that Rhaella at least took, because the ship was waiting for her in King’s Landing’s harbour and everything. Rhaella at the very least left King’s Landing officially, but Viserys seems to have been smuggled out.
Yup that was me. Thanks for the hat tip.
Viserys was shipped like Stannis' onions - under cover of darkness on a ship with moonlight shimmering upon its black sails. Who sails in darkness to Dragonstone...with black sails? Most like those oars were a-muffled m'lord.
We even have a recreation of young Viserys' flight 'to Dragonstone' in the flight of another King's young son 'from Dragonstone' -- Edric Storm. Onions and heirs, both are contraband in times of rebellion.
But that aside, it’s quite clear from the different descriptions, as well as lack of similar details, that not only did Viserys and Rhaella NOT go to Dragonstone together, but that Darry wasn’t with either of them as nobody ever mentions him except Ned.
Which actually could make sense because if you read Ned’s line like so
"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."
That Ned is saying that he thought the Kingsguard would’ve sailed with Darry and not Viserys and Rhaella. As in, Darry later joined them on his own.
Indeed. And Ned isn't claiming Darry sailed with anyone at all, let alone Viserys. Ned is asking the KG absolutely nothing. His statement is an informed barb at the three knights for neglecting their duties. Darry sailed to go protect the royal family, unlike these three, who are strangely and conspicuously out of place -- guarding a pile of rocks Ned wants to tear down in the Red Mountains of Dorne. ::flag wave::
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
markg171, voice, Two things: Tyrosh is one of the closest Free Cities to Dorne. Also there was some kind of pact between Doran and the Archon of Tyrosh.
I often wondered if the green haired daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh could just be young Dany in disguise. After all Arianne had no idea who she was.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I often wondered if the green haired daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh could just be young Dany in disguise. After all Arianne had no idea who she was.
Interesting idea, but is Dany old enough?
Hard to say I can't find the quote on the ages of the kids in the Water Gardens. I honestly don't think its true but it would fit in with the whole Dorne/Tyrosh/Braavos connection.
She goes from Dorne to Tyrosh to Braavos etc.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
A great find! I'll admit I skipped right over the sails because I figured hey, some Tyroshi or Qartheen lots of people probably had green sails and it was nothing. But if only Lyseni, and possibly Saan have them, then that's a great catch.
Unless asearchoficeandfire is off, those really are the only two references.
And the Sistermen seem to know/assume/insist that orange, pink, or green sails mean not only Lyseni, but Salladhor Saan.
Might also explain Sarlladhor's continued presence. So, I now need to do a re-read and see if there's any more to his presence. :::
Also don't forget that a former Saan was a member of the Band of Nine that helped in the last Blackfyre Rebellion. Saamaro Saan aka the Last Valyrian. The world of Ice and Fire notes that he is an ancestor of Sallador Saan. Also one of Sallador's ships was named Old Mother's Son. Old Mother is the name of another Band of Nine member. An interesting connection to say the least.
HA! I was only looking for green sail--forgot to look for "Saan"--good catch!
Plus, Salladhor carries people to and from Dragonstone in their plot to "restore" the "true king." Though he's no idealist--tells the story of AA for the express purpose of warning Davos from the dangers of seeking that kind of light/heat. He works for gold. Though he does like Davos.
So, I'm now wondering if he might be an echo of the past. And if the Band of Nine is part of the hint, too. And echo of how the sea voyages were accomplished. Even the fleet--when Stannis' fleet is destroyed in the Blackwater, Saan was outside the bay, out of the fight, because they weren't true believers. markg171 's broken down the holes in the "destroyed fleet then flight" story. So, . . . might a Lyseni pirates have been involved? One outside the storm. Assuming someone had enough gold to pay him.
Lysene isn't that far off from Dorne, and it's possible that Dany just got picked up from Dorne on a Lyseni ship
Multiple options are open, as you say. But given Saan's role, I'm thinking this option has legs. Or sails.
And, just as we've been getting hints that people know things about Jon Snows origin in surprising places (IE Edric Dayne), seems like there's a chance someone like Salladhor might have some information. He's a pirate and NOT an idealist. Seems like he'd transport anyone for the right amount of gold. But Martin brings him in multiple times in colorful detail. And he gets Davos out of tight spots and needed travel.
I'm thinking he either may have done something re: the crossings or know something about it.
And I am now wondering where he heard this AA story. . . an developed his opinions on it.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Its amazing how much things are revealed if you go back from scratch with unbiased eyes.
This is rather a big thing. I don't necessarily have a problem with anything RLJ, I just think a lot of the fandom now has seemingly forgotten that there's still holes in the theory, or worse don't see any at all. Because again, I don't think that RLJ couldn't be possible or anything, I just think that when you look at the holes, then look at the other stuff going on in Dany's chapters, it just seems that if anyone had to be Rhaegar's secret kid, it would be Dany of all people. The clues seem to much more naturally fit with Dany than with anybody else IMO.
I know i'm saying i'm glad that you found a space with us and it goes to show it pays to to let people "do their thang."You touched on a very good point about the inability it seems to discern with something is amiss.I agree with you the clues are there one of the jump ot moments was the vision in the HOTU.
For me and a lot of us have been hitting this over and over.How much Info dump Rhaegar get in Dany's chapter and GRRM even gave us that Starwars parallel with mask scene and still people gloss that over.
Dany seeing herself as Rhaegar is big, but like I mentioned in the essay, Dany sees herself as Rhaegar... while Rhaegar is inside the house with the red door. And she sees this while she's birthing Rhaego, who she named after Rhaegar. Like this seems enormous to me here, that Dany sees herself as him, she sees them both in the house with the red door, while a birth is happening.
Yeah this is one of the things that are trippy and i'm almost buying that she's a reincarnation of Rhaegar or some genetic memory from parent to parent.
ultimately it comes down to inconsistencies being recognized
Indeed. And they should be. The holes are all there that at least SOMETHING isn't right. Whether it's (f)Dany, Dany's an idiot, or whatever, undoubtedly IMO SOMETHING isn't right.
People focus on the lemon tree, but that's really just the most overt thing wrong.
You get no arguement here and what i'm finding more by just browsing elsewhere *cough* Westeros.org the term " GRRM made a mistake or he didn't think things through." is the fall back for these "holes."
This is the same architecture seen in Dorne surrounding the Greenblood River. So now we have the lemon tree tied to Dornish Architecture.
See this is probably why I should do re-reads and research before I write essays instead of just writing them based off what I remember off the top of my head lol. Lot of great connections here that has been discussed/thrown around before, can't believe I forgot these
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"