Wow. All I can say is wow. @morrigansraven, please tell me that you checked and Bowen Marsh had six other men with him.
Yes, and no. There are Jon, Horse, and Rory who go out together, specifically named. There are 7 other "actors" in the scene: Bowen Marsh, Wick Wittlestick , Leathers, WunWun, Ser Patrek, Yarwick and the fourth unnamed knife.
Also, I forgot to add that Jon thinks that he has to take charge, lest the queensguard be drawn in to revenge Ser Patrek. So an inversion there, too.
And the whole scene starts with Jon thinking that only he will be breaking his vow. "Promise me" vs. "No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone."
Well I mean actually if you want to get into it it would probably be two towers and two tents, seeing as while Val is guarding Monster, everybody thinks she's actually guarding Aemon, who was born in Mance's tent.
I had not though of it that way--but you're right. Val's guarding a misdirect. "This is not the child you're looking for."
Like Rhaego is a misdirect? Dany and the Dosh Khaleen and all the rest think Rhaego's the Stallion. But his death is the impetus for the Dragon with Three Heads to be "born."
And I know you like the idea that Arthur's Jon's dad, and Jon guarded that tent with Longclaw in hand. Hell he even drew it off his shoulder just like Arthur did at the TOJ.
Yes--I'm still struggling what to do with this moment. A defense, yes. But also a split loyalty (driven in part by the woman Jon loved). Hmmm.
Yes, you're right, two tents and two towers. And One Ring...no, sorry, wrong story. :eek: But I think they might all be part of SlyWren 's fractured theory.
Or "One Sword."
But wait--are you saying my theory is fractured or that my theory is about a fracture?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Jon is distracted by Ser Patrek's cloak, which is White and Silver, with Blue stars (of death). He notices the red blood spraying like daisy petals. Is Arthur distracted by Lyanna?
Yes--I've been trying to figure out what to do with Patrek's blue stars. . .it feels like a parallel put in on purpose because otherwise, his sigil could be anything at all. He's just a troublesome toad--any sigil would do story-wise.
women of power in attendance at births: Mirri and Val
So, maybe Ashara has elements of this role of the woman of power? Mirri is sacrificed to bring about the real "birth"--the birth of Dany as dragon queen. And Ashara is thrown (by self or other) from a tower. Oy. This doesn't bode well for Val. . . or perhaps Mel.
SlyWren, If Jon isn't Arthur's son, at the very least he's echoing him.
The handprints might never disappear.
The Last Hearth. Our sigil is a face palm.
Pull up to the fire, and the warmth and handprints will never leave.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
RE: Patrick's blue field silver star sigil - The only reason this was added to the book is due to a bet by GRRM (Giant's fan) and a friend of his (Cowboys fan) on a football game. Ser Patrick was ripped apart by Wun Wun because the Giants beat the Cowboys in the game, and therefore Sir Patrick's sigil was based on the Star logo of the Dallas Cowboys. i don't recall what the bet was for on the other outcome...
i wouldn't use the symbolism of this sigil as anything overly noteworthy, apart from it being a football bet that came into aDwD...
really like the parallels and inversions that you guys are looking at through these... gives me many ideas for my own work (and that is why i lurk on fansites like this )
If so, if the tragedy at the tent (dancing flames and dead baby) and the misery at the tower (blue-eyed death and blood streaked sky) are lead ins to what is born AFTERWARDS, who/what is born after the tower fight? Dany's the Dragon with Three Heads. The Stallion that Mounts the World only AFTER the one she thought was the Stallion dies.
So, if Jon is born after the tower fight, who is he being born AS? And how did the tower fight potentially help bring about his future role?
I'm of the opinion that the ToJ ritual failed, while the tent ritual succeeded. Dany, after all, got dragons.
This may be because there was a second part to the tent ritual that never took place at the ToJ -- the sacrifice on the fire. This might perhaps explain some of the oddities of the ToJ, notably why the fight ever took place, given that the war was over and it was too late for the Targs. Perhaps the 3KG were still fighting because the ritual had not yet been completed, and Ned & co were stopping the ritual, just as in the inverse the 3 bloodriders were trying to stop the ritual.
This raises an interesting possibility -- that Jon (& Lyanna instead of MMD?) was meant to be sacrificed to 'wake a dragon' -- perhaps to bring Rhaegar back to life, just as Rhaego was going to be sacrificed to bring Drogo back to life.
As for what Jon was born AS? Some people aren't going to like this, but Dany's stillborn child was literally half-dragon. I'm going to say that's what Jon was born as too.
Of course if it's true that Jon was meant to be sacrificed, that fits in nicely with the pyre after the tent and the "two kings to wake the dragon" thing, which we saw with Drogo and Rhaego. Rhaegar was dead, Jon survived. Until FTW, of course. Which may have just belatedly completed the ritual. No surprise then that there should be some echoes to be seen in the ides of march chapter too, then.
I'm of the opinion that the ToJ ritual failed, while the tent ritual succeeded. Dany, after all, got dragons.
This may be because there was a second part to the tent ritual that never took place at the ToJ -- the sacrifice on the fire. This might perhaps explain some of the oddities of the ToJ, notably why the fight ever took place, given that the war was over and it was too late for the Targs. Perhaps the 3KG were still fighting because the ritual had not yet been completed, and Ned & co were stopping the ritual, just as in the inverse the 3 bloodriders were trying to stop the ritual.
Possible. And would fit with why the tent ritual seemed to require 2 steps. And didn't get Dany what she'd wanted from the initial tent ritual. She ended up with a weapon and her identity and The Dragon, but not the Drogo she first wanted.
Whatever is happening in the tower fight, I wouldn't be surprised if "Act II"--or the part where the "weapon" and/or identity was found--came later. And that the tower fight, like the fight at the tent--was only a precursor to getting something they didn't know they could get--like Dany doesn't know how to wake the dragon until after the tent.
This raises an interesting possibility -- that Jon (& Lyanna instead of MMD?) was meant to be sacrificed to 'wake a dragon' -- perhaps to bring Rhaegar back to life, just as Rhaego was going to be sacrificed to bring Drogo back to life.
Interesting! And I'm wondering if mystery around Ashara might tie into this. Arya has that line about the stupid woman throwing herself from her stupid tower because her stupid prince is dead. I'm of the mind that this is a reference to Ashara. If my mind is not insane (always a risk), then seems possible she was tied to Rhaegar. It's a stretch, but possible. And if that holds--I could see her wanting him back at any cost. . .
As for what Jon was born AS? Some people aren't going to like this, but Dany's stillborn child was literally half-dragon. I'm going to say that's what Jon was born as too.
One way or another, I think Jon is a "mixed" being. I tend more toward Wolf (Stark) and Sword (Dyane), but Wolf-Dragon, or winged wolf could work well.
Of course if it's true that Jon was meant to be sacrificed, that fits in nicely with the pyre after the tent and the "two kings to wake the dragon" thing, which we saw with Drogo and Rhaego. Rhaegar was dead, Jon survived. Until FTW, of course. Which may have just belatedly completed the ritual. No surprise then that there should be some echoes to be seen in the ides of march chapter too, then.
Yup! The delay could have been much longer for Jon than for Dany's "completed" ritual. A "finished" birthing.
That said, Jon's rising from the dead (like Dany's walking from the pyre) could be more of a parallel than a copy: Dany rises as The Dragon with Three Heads. But Jon rises as something else--not a dragon at all.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Ooh, we don't know the Dayne sigil, right? Maybe a winged sword, "We Rise Above"? I know, most likely, that Jon's winged wolf would have dragon wings. But he will "break the chains" of death if he rises from FTW. Dany is also this type of "breaker of chains".
Ooh, we don't know the Dayne sigil, right? Maybe a winged sword, "We Rise Above"? I know, most likely, that Jon's winged wolf would have dragon wings. But he will "break the chains" of death if he rises from FTW. Dany is also this type of "breaker of chains".
We have been told the Dayne sigil, though I don't think we've seen it yet in the novels:
So, not a winged sword, but a falling star. Still flying, just downward.
And no, we don't have their words. "We rise above" would work.
Or "Good Day Sunshine, " "Here Comes the Sun," etc.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.