voice, do you think GRRM distrusts all of religion, or do you think he is just trying to point out the downside?
I think he distrusts all religion. Or, at least, I think he views it as a rival among equals... the other equals being science, history, and mythology. But that might be giving religion a bit too much weight from his POV. He punishes piety and unquestioning-faith with great regularity in the 1000 worlds series.
I get the impression that he is wired for awe, and is quick to feel "spiritual," but that he's simply too smart to accept any religion at face value. The downside quickly emerges, and his writings seem to often be about precisely that conflict. I think this is his version of the heart in conflict with itself -- magic/spiritual inspiration vs cold hard logic and science.
You could make a Jonestown point with your quote above.
Definitely. What is interesting, is that I think GRRM is treating secularism (Tyrion, Petyr Baelish) as yet another form of faith. This is where the waters are further muddied, imo, as it seems that man can offend the "gods" by both mysticism and secularism.
If my Weirwood Ghost/miasma stuff is at all correct, then Mankind offended the old powers by simply being Human.
And yes, I think GRRM is that cynical. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I think that "box" approach that is the balancing point for a lot of people. I'm an art teacher who was a science teacher, both for a while, and THAT freaked some people out. Didn't fit in their preconceived notions. I know some very hardcore scientists who are religious; some who are irreligious; some who are atheists; and some pagans, too. They have different boxes because some contain their science and religion together and some separately. Which box is bigger? YMMV
For reals. It fits in pretty well with my Weirwood Ghost theory too I think, and the idea that rather than greenseers being to blame for man's self destruction, that the trees themselves are driving man to self-destruct.
If anything I see the Greeshka as more of a parallel to the weirwodds than the CotF. But I'm not sure if that's right or not. The Shkeen do protect the Greeshka similarly to the way that the CotF protect the weirnet. In the end Robb decides that this isn't meant for him or humankind, thinking that something bigger and better is out there for humans, even though the draw is there and quite strong. Is the same thing true for humans and the weirnet. Or is the parallel the use of magic in general?
People seem to glance right past the faculty of weirwoods and focus upon the humanoid race that dwells among them, but that is a mistake methinks.
YES YES YES to all of this!! Now go reread Seven Times Never Kill Man and tell me it's not the exact same message (just substitute a pyramid for the Greeshka/weirwoods)!! Wow. Time to burn the weirwoods.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
YES YES YES to all of this!! Now go reread Seven Times Never Kill Man and tell me it's not the exact same message (just substitute a pyramid for the Greeshka/weirwoods)!! Wow. Time to burn the weirwoods.
As much as you have shrunken my hope that the cotf/weirwoods are beneficial, I clutch it like blue roses. Though my hands may bleed, the smell is just soooo sweet. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
As much as you have shrunken my hope that the cotf/weirwoods are beneficial, I clutch it like blue roses. Though my hands may bleed, the smell is just soooo sweet. LOL
LOL. Why don't you ask Lyanna how those roses worked out for her.
I hear you though - it's not a conclusion I wanted to come to. I think that's why it's taken us so long to even consider it - we want the trees to be good! And yet there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting they are not... I'll see you over in the Seven Times thread.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I hear you though - it's not a conclusion I wanted to come to. I think that's why it's taken us so long to even consider it - we want the trees to be good! And yet there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting they are not...
I'm seeing more an more that agrees with this. I really think it was the adverse effect of the protection of those trees, combined with the trees protection of themselves. that started all of these crazy things. If you tear apart the part where Jon fight's Othor in Mormont's chambers, I think there may very well be a second story hidden behind this that in a way describes the pre-history of Planetos. I think that some of those same echoes can be found in Arya's chapter where she's with Yoren and fight's Lorch and his men from the holdfast. I just can seem to put it all together coherently.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?