So, does this mean we are all having a groupthink about groupthink itself?
If so, I'm not sure what I should think about this.
Perhaps I should consult the thinking group about what I should think about this groupthink.
Any thoughts?
It's like a mobius strip of reasoning.
Thoughts. Yes. Either Arthur Dayne is Jon's Snow's father, or GRRM is not the legendary writer I think he is destined to be remembered as. It's just so perfectly poignant and bitter and cynical and postmodern and Shakespearean that I don't know how it can't be true.
I'd accept that or Ashara being the mother. Hopefully not both...
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Thoughts. Yes. Either Arthur Dayne is Jon's Snow's father, or GRRM is not the legendary writer I think he is destined to be remembered as. It's just so perfectly poignant and bitter and cynical and postmodern and Shakespearean that I don't know how it can't be true.
It would be incredibly, personally painful Agony, really, if Ned killed Lyanna's beloved in a way that made Bran look so horrified. That whole fight scene was about Bran's learning how his father killed Arthur and being horrified by it. That was the very clear point.
And Shakespeare would love it, too.
But I can also see Rhaegar's case. Can't unsee the connections. Or the fact that Arthur said, "our prince wanted us here."I think the killing and emphasis on the sword leans towards Arthur as father, but Rhaegar's still in the running.
In all seriousness though, the last episode was a good day for RLJ. Lyanna's fear of Robert was very well written/acted I thought. I still am of the mind the brothel chapter almost completely negates the idea that Rhaegar was Jon's father, but the question is far from answered.
I would still like to see RLJ be the secret. I don't find it very plausible, but I still like the romance of it. Yes, even voice has a sappy side.
Arthur seems far more applicable to the Long Night (Dawn=Lightbringer, and Jon=Sword of the Morning), which I prefer to the dragon-part of the story, but I admit that is my own personal bias.
I've been thinking more and more that they are setting up Jon and Dany as opposites. As others have pointed out:
Dany lifted up as a deliverer; Jon's clawing up out of death. It's a connection, but also a clear contrast. So, the show seems to be saying they are opposite--at least visually.
It's at least one reason I'm less fussed re: genetic connection.
RLJ would still be cool, even if incredibly cliche.
Amen! And, one way or another, Martin or D&D MUST deliver Harrenhal.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Speaking of Shakespeare, I think #freypies was borrowed from Shakespeare but I can't remember the play at the moment.
Titus Andronicus. One of his earliest plays that he may have written with someone else.
And, quite frankly, not his best. Even Shakespeare has some plays that suck.
Or, in the case of Titus Andronicus, bleed massive amounts of unnecessary horror.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Speaking of Shakespeare, I think #freypies was borrowed from Shakespeare but I can't remember the play at the moment.
Titus Andronicus. One of his earliest plays that he may have written with someone else.
And, quite frankly, not his best. Even Shakespeare has some plays that suck.
Or, in the case of Titus Andronicus, bleed massive amounts of unnecessary horror.
THANK YOU! Read it in '96 and I couldn't figure out how I even remembered that.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I understand GRRM because I am GRRM. I grew up a fat, shy, nerdy kid who was smarter than everyone around him, liked to read books and couldn't get laid if my life depended on it. (And was super bitter about it and used fantasy worlds to escape the pain of the loneliness). The Bran to his Bloodraven, if you will.
And now you have a truckload of money and get laid every 5 minutes?
In all seriousness though, the last episode was a good day for RLJ. Lyanna's fear of Robert was very well written/acted I thought. I still am of the mind the brothel chapter almost completely negates the idea that Rhaegar was Jon's father, but the question is far from answered.
It was a good one for A+L = J, too, though.
Why have a magic sword without a hero to wield it, anyway? Certainly neither Darkstar nor Ned Dayne are going to take it up.
Why have a magic sword without a hero to wield it, anyway? Certainly neither Darkstar nor Ned Dayne are going to take it up.
Not only that, but just look at how they handled the casting of Arthur Dayne. It was a complete secret. And once it leaked, they pretended the character's name was "Alfred Hunrith."
Why the smokescreen for such a minor character?
And why showcase the fight at the tower of joy instead of the gallantry at Harrenhal?
Stirring up the diehard fandom is one thing, but for casual viewers, they have no knowledge of Rhaegar aside from a few fleeting bits of hearsay.
Fans looking for RLJ saw the fight between Ned and Arthur played out far more elaborately than it is written in the books. Arthur was the focus of the tower in episode three, and his sword was featured quite prominently, as you point out, in episode ten.
Yet, Rhaegar was never featured. Why would the showmakers decide that part of the fever dream was more important to film than the lucid accounts of the tourney at Harrenhal?
It only makes sense if Arthur is more relevant than Rhaegar.
And I would argue that this seems to be the case for book-Ned as well. Ned is driven to silent guilt over three people in the series: Lyanna, Jon, and Arthur. He only frightened Catelyn once in all their years of marriage, and that was when the name Ashara Dayne was mentioned in Winterfell. Ned found himself remembering Rhaegar for the first time in years, without passion, yet grew sad when speaking of Arthur Dayne to Bran.
So for me, the casting choice of Arthur and not Rhaegar makes perfect sense.
If the show is going with RLJ, it seems like they would have benefitted far more from filming HH and the blue rose crown than the fight at the tower. Yes, I remember LF's story for Sansa, but that pales in comparison to what they did for Arthur Dayne.
So yes, I agree. A good day for ALJ too. No Rhaegar. No harp. NO BLUE ROSES IN LYANNA'S HANDS, LYANNA'S BED, OR IN LYANNA'S ROOM. Instead, we had a sword. A sword of heroes.
"Valyrian steel," he said, "spell-forged and razor-sharp, nigh on indestructible. A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not. The Halfhand could have killed me as easy as you swat a bug."
Nigh on indestructible, but NOT indestructible.
Dawn notches steel blades, and is thousands of years old. I have a feeling Dawn is indestructible. Jon might be as good as that sword, considering he may end up being indestructible too.
Jon is not Valyrian steel, and neither is Dawn. Dawn is pale as milkglass, like the Wall, like Ice, like Ghost.
Jon's sword-hand keeps opening and closing, just as he guiltily dreams of one day having "his father's" sword.
And the Halfhand could have killed Jon "as easy as" Arthur Dayne swatted Ned.
Many fans saw what they wanted to see this season, regardless of their bias. But the mere fact that we met Arthur Dayne, while Rhaegar remains a memory only remembered every few years, makes for a strong case.
No reason not to film the tourney of HH.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Fans looking for RLJ saw the fight between Ned and Arthur played out far more elaborately than it is written in the books. Arthur was the focus of the tower in episode three, and his sword was featured quite prominently, as you point out, in episode ten.
Well, how else would we know that he was meant to be "Jon" Aegon "Azor Ahai" Stark Targaryan if the sword isn't placed where it is to make it quite clear that he was born "under a bleeding star?" You silly goose, you!