But he does squash a lot of good ideas in favor of "old heresies"
indeed, some of the squashed take refuge in the last hearth.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
totally, i never gave it a thought. He was at the Wall and that is where the mystery and adventure resided. Do we care who was Frodo's father? (actually if you want to know, his name was.......Drogo!!)
I only got to realise something was amiss when i started reading the boards and saw the threadmoil on the topic.
Ditto for me. The parentage mystery rose to the fore on my second read, and then the "close as brothers" prayer made me remember Lyanna's bed of blood. This was just before season two aired. I googled, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" (like multitudes before me, and since) and lo and behold, I found plenty of articles and threads on the topic.
I was 100% certain of RLJ after about two seconds.
Then, upon subsequent rereads, the waters muddied. While the trail to RLJ is paved with neon lights, I can't help but notice the holes in between (the biggest one of which, for me, is Lyanna's feelings on promiscuity). Rhaegar is way down on my list of liklihood at this point, Arthur is in the lead, and is only a nose ahead of Ned. I'm a big time fanboy of the Old Gods side of the novels, and that makes me want Howland Reed or Benjen as Jon's father, if only to have a living dude tied to the Old Gods to provide Jon with some anwers. But I don't find them likely.
Lyanna is in the lead for mother, followed by Ashara, who is followed by Wylla. Beyond those three, only the fisherman's daughter is plausible in my head-canon.
Early on: the Other, of course is the biggest, how much sci-fi is in this part of the story? why are they capitalised? etc etc. We spent sometime you and I on the Last Hero, but I think the corpse woman is still a mystery.
Then, more compartmentalised stories, like the missing Benjen, who else is missing? let me know i'll have a look!
Recently the early races and their oily stones, I think i have satisfied my curiosity with the green men now though.
So many mysteries! Jon and the crypts, SlyWren helped me turn over just about every cobweb to see through the martin fog. Great fun.
I have seen quite a few PJ videos, i like them, never mind some of his conclusions. The way Arya got to the FaM, who would have thought?
I think we might be experiencing a breakdown in communication when I mention "Jon's story" lol. I simply mean Jon's story, his POVs. As has been noted for years, most of the evidence to find that Jon isn't Ned's bastard comes outside of Jon's chapters, outside of Jon's POVs. You've listed many of them. I'm not disputing that there's not bits and pieces elsewhere that seem to dispute everything, I'm saying that they don't tend to be found in Jon's story. That if you simply read Jon's POVs, there's nothing really that doesn't work perfectly fine as Jon being Eddard Stark's son.
Something needs to come into his own story, his own POVs, that would make all these other hints throughout the text actually truly be hints, and not readers simply reading possibly what they want into the story is what I'm saying, because as things stands, there's nothing between AGOT-ADWD in Jon's POVs that makes it that he can't be Eddard Stark's son. Jon not being Eddard Stark's son does need to matter to Jon, it should end up in his story.
Unlike say Dany's story, which itself is full of holes and hints for herself...
Ah yes, now I getcha.
And I agree. If nothing enters Jon's storyline to make it meaningful, it will have been for cheap thrills.
I have done a few Jon-only rereads. In fact, he and Bran are the only characters I've ever done that with. I keep meaning to do one for Ned but have not. Anyway, I do think there are some things evident in Jon's own POVs that should make us question his parentage, though.
Prepare for a wall of text. I am dumping these, not to convince you markg171 , I know you've heard it all before. I am including them because they adequately demonstrate, in my opinion, that it would not be out-of-character for Jon to wonder if Ned isn't his father, and thus, such a revelation would be an organic development in his story without much being added to it.
1. What is Jon afraid of? A Game of Thrones - Jon IV
"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.
Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.
2. What is Jon asking? A Clash of Kings - Jon VI
Longclaw was not so long or heavy a sword as his father's Ice, but it was Valyrian steel all the same. He touched the edge of the blade to mark where the blow must fall, and Ygritte shivered. "That's cold," she said. "Go on, be quick about it." He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he? "Do it," she urged him after a moment. "Bastard. Do it. I can't stay brave forever." When the blow did not fall she turned her head to look at him.
3. What makes Jon disobey and balk at his orders? A Storm of Swords - Jon V
You must not balk, whatever is asked of you. Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them . . . But this old man had offered no resistance. He had been unlucky, that was all. Who he was, where he came from, where he meant to go on his sorry sway-backed horse . . . none of it mattered. He is an old man, Jon told himself. Fifty, maybe even sixty. He lived a longer life than most. The Thenns will kill him anyway, nothing I can say or do will save him. Longclaw seemed heavier than lead in his hand, too heavy to lift. The man kept staring at him, with eyes as big and black as wells. I will fall into those eyes and drown. The Magnar was looking at him too, and he could almost taste the mistrust. The man is dead. What matter if it is my hand that slays him? One cut would do it, quick and clean. Longclaw was forged of Valyrian steel. Like Ice. Jon remembered another killing; the deserter on his knees, his head rolling, the brightness of blood on snow . . . his father's sword, his father's words, his father's face . . .
4. Deafeated Kings of Winter shun and lament Jon's company. A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII
He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here.Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . .
5. Jon slays the King of Winter. A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII
That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees. "Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed. They are all gone. They have abandoned me. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … … and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.
Couple these with the "You know nothing, Jon Snow" mantra that Ygritte taught him, and you have yourself a ripe old case of identity crisis. It's already a part of his story, and he already doubts that he is Ned's son, doubts himself when attempting to do what Ned would do, and already feels his allegiance to Winterfell is false. Not only is his "am no Stark" identity crisis already a part of his POV, it is the very impetus for his evolution as a character.
Jon's turmoil as a non-Stark of Winterfell evelopes his past (Catelyn), his present (Ygritte), and his future (winter is coming). Remaining forever Ned's bastard can certainly prolong that, but it cannot amend it.
But again, Ned and Ashara do that same thing. There is no sudden reason to instead pair Lyanna and Arthur. It's the same situation really, Stark or Dayne.
Same genetics, I agree, but a completely different situation.
Ned+Ashara or any woman would only affirm for Jon that he, Jon, is the solitary stain upon Lord Stark's honor. X+Lyanna would not only exonorate Ned of that stain, it would make Ned into an uncle even more epic than Benjen.
A beautiful dead mother named Ashara does little and less in terms of Jon reconciling his place within the realms of men. But Arthur on the other hand does much and more. Jon can be proud of his "notable achievements," without feeling like he is betraying Robb/Ned/WF.
Lyanna's credentials need no repeating, but I think we can agree that Jon would find Lyanna more impactful as a dead mother than he would Ashara or Wylla or the fisherman's daughter.
I mean in the sense that there's no reason to change what's presented, if the end result can't also simply be achieved by being Ned's son.
If say the extent of Jon's "specialness" is that he's a warg, then there's no reason to make him Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna, or Rickard's son, when all of Ned's own children are wargs too. Changing the parent is nothing more than a shock decision at that point, as it does nothing to actually change who Jon actually is. Jon still can be a warg simply by being Ned's son. Nothing was changed here.
As presented, there are changes in Jon's identity afoot. And he has already asked himself if he is Eddard's son. That alone should adequately demonstrate that it wouldn't be shock for shock's sake. Add in his own dreams, and the POVs of others, and it is anything but shocking.
If George doesn't do obvious, Ned+? seems unlikely.
I don't actually dispute it, I simply remain mindful of the fact that Ned brought home two boys unrequited, not one, and that none of the boys in question are mentioned beyond Robb, who grew close to both.
Technically speaking, even Robb is not mentioned. But I too am mindful of that, in the days since your suggestion. Still, I must point out that without GRRM's authoritative interjection, the prayer reads as follows:
"… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them, and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"
If Ned is praying for Robb and Theon, the inclusion of Catelyn seems odd. Catelyn never begrudged Ned's fostering of Theon.
Howland Reed or Benjen as Jon's father, if only to have a living dude tied to the Old Gods to provide Jon with some anwers.
I am not sure if Benjen can qualify because of his age, but certainly a couple of things he said to Jon at the 'royal' reception raise at least one eyebrow. As far as Howland Reed, now that i have studied the crannogmen, it seems very unlikely, but he was there at the famous tourney.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
and if it was not lit by martin, certainly the fandom has erected plenty of lights. But it is a mystery and we like mysteries, right?
On that topic, i think as much as the colour of hair, eyes etc, we need to keep in mind the character of the subject, inherited or acquired. Why is Dany a misha, freeing slaves? surely she does not get this from a targ ancestry? happy to be proven wrong. Why does Jon have such strong excesses of temper? where does he get his natural leadership from (he does very well organising the watch, negotiating with Stannis)?
From early on, i have been suspecting martin to provide us with ropes to hang ourselves on; i got the feeling that what characters saw north on the wall where heavily influenced by the ancient tales they heard from their mums or nans. The proverbial boogy man. Prejudices, superstitions are traits present in a number of, say 'common folks', characters. Sometimes we need to demystify the text, the way Jon eventually demystifies the wildlings, to avoid falling into martin's traps as he plays on our own preconceived ideas.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
As to labour,her going into labour right when Ned showed up is just real crappy writing.The KGs picking a fight with Lyanna's brother with her in that condition again doesn't indicate that their was a royal heir there.
I don't think she was in labor during the fight. IMO Jon was a few hours to days old, 1 week at the most.
Lastly,per GRRM's own words only Ned and Howland live to ride away from toj,soooo Ned and Howland killed those who were helping Lyanna with delivery?
This was something that always bothered me. Surely there was some sort of household at the ToJ. Even LF has a few people keeping his sheep and rocks in line. I understand it as only 2 rode away in reference to the 9 fighter's in the beginning. The household was inconsequential.
But if they are there for the pregnant Ashara--think of the miserable pit of agony Arthur is in: the finest knight must choose to defend his sister and paramour of his prince. Defend their child. But if he does so, he must fight and likely kill the brother of his beloved and the uncle of his child.
That SUCKS! And it's a misery that Ned would sympathize with. And could very well be part of why Ned would mourn Arthur above Whent and Hightower--at least according to Bran.
Nice! I think that no matter who the parents are and who is in the tower Ned is a rebel as Lady Dyanna pointed out.
That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.
This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.
Love this! This makes the most sense to me. Thank you!!!
Word. That's what it's all about. RLJ is a very, VERY good theory. I still quite like it, and it wasn't long ago that I was arguing in favor of it.
But much of its support and popularity comes from ignoring discrepancies rather than investigating them. The KG at the toj is an excellent part of the theory to examine. It is one of the stronger points in favor of RLJ, as 3 KG were loyal to Rhaegar instead of their King.
Added to this, we have Ned's lucid account of the tower of joy. He pulled it down himself afterward. That seems rude if there were other people aside from Lyanna and the KG using its rooms.
And the pulling-down of the tower for the sole purpose of cairns seems a rather insane and trivial exercise if Lyanna's corpse and baby Jon are now in his custody.
IMO part of the "wolf blood" is having a temper. And all Starks have a tempers. Ned was better at controlling his but still lost it from time to time (LF at the brothel). Does that mean he hulked out and pulled down a tower? No. I think this is more than likely hyperbolic. He probably pulled some stones from it for the cairns.
I submit that it requires far less invention on our part if Lyanna was simply not at the tower of joy, and was instead at a location (such as Starfall) where she would have been tended by a maester (as highborn ladies typically are in childbirth) and where Howland would have likely been accompanied by non-combatants to remove Lyanna's hand from Ned's.
This makes sense too.
I'm still catching up. I'll read and post more shortly.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
lol! Yes, imagine that- I convinced voice to lean toward the dark side in a PM about a year ago. I still never finished my reread. I figured I could just keep watching prestonjacobs videos to refresh my memory.
Something needs to come into his own story, his own POVs, that would make all these other hints throughout the text actually truly be hints, and not readers simply reading possibly what they want into the story is what I'm saying, because as things stands, there's nothing between AGOT-ADWD in Jon's POVs that makes it that he can't be Eddard Stark's son. Jon not being Eddard Stark's son does need to matter to Jon, it should end up in his story.
Unlike say Dany's story, which itself is full of holes and hints for herself..
Oooo i think plenty evidence has been introduced in Jon's POV.He ofcourse don't know it.But to say that is absent?Noooo.If one thing the parentage project has shown me is that what people percieve as clues are varied and many.Ultimately,this is what's been the debate.
This was something that always bothered me. Surely there was some sort of household at the ToJ. Even LF has a few people keeping his sheep and rocks in line. I understand it as only 2 rode away in reference to the 9 fighter's in the beginning. The household was inconsequential.
Nuh uh,not if you want this kept secret.You trust that,that's if all this went down as common thinking asserts.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Howland Reed or Benjen as Jon's father, if only to have a living dude tied to the Old Gods to provide Jon with some anwers.
I am not sure if Benjen can qualify because of his age, but certainly a couple of things he said to Jon at the 'royal' reception raise at least one eyebrow. As far as Howland Reed, now that i have studied the crannogmen, it seems very unlikely, but he was there at the famous tourney.
I think FFR had the Howland theory, I always liked it. Or at least wrote the essay, IRC.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
SlyWren , Do you still have your original Jon as SotM OP from Westeros saved? Or actually any of those Death to Dawn threads. If you're willing to repost them over here I'd gladly help out with the formatting, etc.
It isn't slow or naive. It is simply a non-issue for most readers. I've seen it with my friends/family/students over the years many times. The question of Jon's parentage never even seems like a question... unless the reader is practiced in the field of Fantasy Literature. Such readers see the question screaming from the page from the very first chapter (Bran I: "but they did not look alike..." "I am no Stark, father") and have been trained by the genre itself to look for a hidden prince/king. Often, the hidden heir is downtrodden, an outcast, an orphan, a loner... the list goes on... and it reads like a description of Jon.
Laura Ingalls Wilder never made me work this hard. LOL
The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The End
Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.
As the son of the dead heir, Aegon should be The Heir, due to the custom of primogeniture:
Primogeniture is the right, by law or custom, of the legitimate, firstborn son to inherit his parent's entire or main estate, in preference to daughters, elder illegitimate sons, younger sons and collateral relatives. The son of a deceased elder brother inherits before a living younger brother by right of substitution for the deceased heir.
As "mrlopez" at the W pointed out (link) this at first reads like an editing error, because Rhaegar's son Aegon was still alive at the time, and Rhaegar was the previous heir:
I have another error - in the passage in the book discussing Robert's rebellion, Viserys is referred to as King Aerys II's "new heir" after the death of Rhaegar when the babe Aegon is still alive (this would be after the Battle of the Trident but before the Sack of King's Landing).
For example, King Edward III of England was succeeded by his 8 year old grandson Richard II. Edward had other sons, but Richard was the son of Edward's son & heir, Edward the Black Prince, who had pre-deceased King Edward III.
So, primogeniture demands that VIserys would NOT be the heir so long as Rhaegar's son Aegon was alive, baby or not. Viserys would be AFTER Aegon.
And Ran responded to affirm that in fact, this was not an error in the World Book, but a reporting of historical records at the time...
Not an error. Primogeniture is customary, but not binding... especially not to a king. We have other examples of people being passed over, or potentially passed over, for others.
Maester Yandel is merely reporting based on historical records on events of the time.
Thus, this setting-aside of Rhaegar's children is very much in accord with pretty much everything we've ever learned about Aerys. Viserys really was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and that means Dany, if she really is Viserys' sister (and even IF Aegon is real) ... is now the only heir of King Aerys II.
Did Viserys ever refer to Dany as his heir? Wouldn't he have to? There hasn't been a woman on the IT and the one time a King named his daughter his heir it ruffled a few feathers. markg171 - what are your thoughts on Dany being the heir?
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I have done a few Jon-only rereads. In fact, he and Bran are the only characters I've ever done that with. I keep meaning to do one for Ned but have not. Anyway, I do think there are some things evident in Jon's own POVs that should make us question his parentage, though.
This all has my head spinning with a thousand questions and ideas I was just going to suggest a Jon re-read. I've done a Bran one on W. How about we go with Ned first? It'll be short.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Happy to oblige. I couldn't remember it all myself until Mark dug up the link to that thread. But yes, the passage in question is interesting because Aerys removed Rhaegar's eldest true born son from the line of succession. Thus Rhaegar's youngest son would not have been a part of it either. Jon's bastardy would also mean that Viserys is the heir, even without the primogeniture debate, because a trueborn son of the King comes long before a bastard grandson.
That being said, the KG at the tower would make a lot of sense if they said to hell with Aerys' line of succession, and were instead following the true usurper, King Rhaegar Targaryen.
This is why in spite of my argument that they are not guarding an heir, I still feel the presence of the KG strengthens the argument for R+L=J. And while that wasn't the intent of my Catspaw theory, RLJ makes some sense with it. If his children from Elia were too Dornish-smelling to be heirs, and Rhaegar knew his father would disinherit them and use them as political prisoners, then he may have felt the need to steal the crown and sire a new heir.
Did Viserys ever refer to Dany as his heir? Wouldn't he have to? There hasn't been a woman on the IT and the one time a King named his daughter his heir it ruffled a few feathers.
I think he wouldn't have to, so long as he thought marriage was possible. As his fake/real sister, Dany would have been his only living heir by all customs, but he was rather misogynistic. I don't think he ever afforded her that respect.
A new crackpot just came to mind in considering this. What if Viserys fathered bastards? GRRM could still present us plenty more dragonseeds.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
This all has my head spinning with a thousand questions and ideas I was just going to suggest a Jon re-read. I've done a Bran one on W. How about we go with Ned first? It'll be short.
Sounds fun!
Poor Ned.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I have done a few Jon-only rereads. In fact, he and Bran are the only characters I've ever done that with. I keep meaning to do one for Ned but have not. Anyway, I do think there are some things evident in Jon's own POVs that should make us question his parentage, though.
This all has my head spinning with a thousand questions and ideas I was just going to suggest a Jon re-read. I've done a Bran one on W. How about we go with Ned first? It'll be short.
Start a thread in the Forensic Files section; doesn't have to be in order, we analyze specific chapters there.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones