I think he wouldn't have to, so long as he thought marriage was possible. As his fake/real sister, Dany would have been his only living heir by all customs, but he was rather misogynistic. I don't think he ever afforded her that respect.
It seems obvious that she was his heir until he got married and a son was born. BUT there hasn't been a Queen on the IT in her own right. Rhaenyra did for a short period and that came at great cost and her father was regularly questioned on his line of succession despite having high Lords swear to make sure she succeeds him.
I think he wouldn't have to, so long as he thought marriage was possible. As his fake/real sister, Dany would have been his only living heir by all customs, but he was rather misogynistic. I don't think he ever afforded her that respect.
It seems obvious that she was his heir until he got married and a son was born. BUT there hasn't been a Queen on the IT in her own right. Rhaenyra did for a short period and that came at great cost and her father was regularly questioned on his line of succession despite having high Lords swear to make sure she succeeds him.
A new crackpot just came to mind in considering this. What if Viserys fathered bastards? GRRM could still present us plenty more dragonseeds.
I always assumed he was so angry bc he sexually frustrated and anything about him getting it on was made up. LOL
Not sure if it means anything for sure or not, but Daenerys was introduced as the Princess of Dragonstone, I believe, at the party where she is introduced to Khal Drogo. IIRC, didn't that title signify the Targaryen heir in past generations?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
It seems obvious that she was his heir until he got married and a son was born. BUT there hasn't been a Queen on the IT in her own right. Rhaenyra did for a short period and that came at great cost and her father was regularly questioned on his line of succession despite having high Lords swear to make sure she succeeds him.
I always assumed he was so angry bc he sexually frustrated and anything about him getting it on was made up. LOL
Not sure if it means anything for sure or not, but Daenerys was introduced as the Princess of Dragonstone, I believe, at the party where she is introduced to Khal Drogo. IIRC, didn't that title signify the Targaryen heir in past generations?
Oh right, good catch!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
As Lady Dyanna has since pointed out, yes Dany, is called the Princess of Dragonstone in AGOT
Inside the manse, the air was heavy with the scent of spices, pinchfire and sweet lemon and cinnamon. They were escorted across the entry hall, where a mosaic of colored glass depicted the Doom of Valyria. Oil burned in black iron lanterns all along the walls. Beneath an arch of twining stone leaves, a eunuch sang their coming. "Viserys of the House Targaryen, the Third of his Name," he called in a high, sweet voice, "King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. His sister, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone. His honorable host, Illyrio Mopatis, Magister of the Free City of Pentos."
So she sat in her wedding silks, nursing a cup of honeyed wine, afraid to eat, talking silently to herself. I am blood of the dragon, she told herself. I am Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror.
The Prince/Princess of Dragonstone is the title given to the heir to the throne (as opposed to the less title of Prince of Summerhall, indicating someone further done the succession). So Dany was Viserys' acknowledged heir given that she possesses the title Princess of Dragonstone.
markg171 - what are your thoughts on Dany being the heir?
I think it makes all the sense. Aerys made Viserys his heir. Viserys was crowned King Viserys III on Dragonstone by Rhaella after Aerys died. Viserys then made Dany his heir. Dany was then crowned Queen Daenerys I after Viserys' death. Dany is the rightful heir because she's the heir of the last king. Legally speaking, Dany is the heir and the monarch.
Course, you then get into primogeniture, which would favour a male Targaryen over her. But as Elio pointed out on this very issue, primogeniture is NOT law, it's simply a custom that the eldest male generally inherits. There is nothing making primogeniture binding, and certainly not to a king who literally is the source of law in the realm. Viserys said Dany was his heir, therefore Dany is unquestionably his heir.
It's just whether or not anybody will actually listen to the decree of the dead king, given that the king no longer has any power once they're dead. But that's not an issue of succession, that's an issue of rebellion and treason. The king made his will clear, anything else is rebellion and treason (unless you win)
GRRM himself even lists the Targaryen monarchs as going Aerys II -> Viserys III -> Dany I in this SSM
So I've never had any problem whatsoever with the notion that Dany is the heir. She is. She was declared it by the last king, and she was crowned upon his death. She's it.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
So I've never had any problem whatsoever with the notion that Dany is the heir. She is. She was declared it by the last king, and she was crowned upon his death. She's it.
Awesome thanks!
I really appreciate everyone's insight and discussion. This has been enlightening and educational. (BUT STILL R+L=J 4 EVA!)
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
SlyWren , Do you still have your original Jon as SotM OP from Westeros saved? Or actually any of those Death to Dawn threads. If you're willing to repost them over here I'd gladly help out with the formatting, etc.
Okay--I saw this and voice's post--so, am assuming you all want me to post it now?
If so, since I can now log on, I'll do it.
If you've changed your minds, feel free to delete.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
SlyWren , Do you still have your original Jon as SotM OP from Westeros saved? Or actually any of those Death to Dawn threads. If you're willing to repost them over here I'd gladly help out with the formatting, etc.
Okay--I saw this and voice's post--so, am assuming you all want me to post it now?
If so, since I can now log on, I'll do it.
If you've changed your minds, feel free to delete.
I put it in general, but if you want to move it to the Parentage Threads, that's obviously fine, too.
I'll be back to play this afternoon when I should have a bit more free time..
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
SlyWren , Do you still have your original Jon as SotM OP from Westeros saved? Or actually any of those Death to Dawn threads. If you're willing to repost them over here I'd gladly help out with the formatting, etc.
Okay--I saw this and voice 's post--so, am assuming you all want me to post it now?
If so, since I can now log on, I'll do it.
If you've changed your minds, feel free to delete.
I'm going to delete that last sentence from my mind. It's one of my FAVE theories!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
- Gerold Hightower was sent to Dorne to retrieve Rhaegar, and is sworn to protect the King. Yet instead of doing so, he hangs around the Red Mountains of Dorne to protect Rhaegar's Stark mistress and illegitmate son from fellow northmen? Such behavior in no way matches the words spoken in Ned's fever dream.
This has been bugging me for some time. How do we know this? I was unable to find it in the books or TWoIaF. Is it from the app? Or is it an assumption (fairly reasonable) that got factified?
We know a fight occurred, leaving only Ned and Howland to live to ride away:
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.
And GRRM has not diverged from this representation in subsequent SSMs, and he seems to ever only reiterate that only Ned and Howland rode away from the tower of joy.
Lastly,per GRRM's own words only Ned and Howland live to ride away from toj,soooo Ned and Howland killed those who were helping Lyanna with delivery?
Can you guys please quote those words? The book passage does say that, but it's also quite clearly speaking about the battle participants, rather than any other people who might have been present. And SSM-wise, the last time something like this came up, it turned out to refer to this, which is a far cry from him confirming that only Ned and Howland left the ToJ. So, if there's new info, please share the source
I have looked once at what did Ned actually promised Lyanna. What I found is the conversation he had with Robert in the crypts of WF where he said he was with her when she died:
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.
Having read much about 'broken promises' i have even wondered whether he did take her bones back...but he also said he paid for having kept his promises...so this promise being as canon as anything can be, i will take it that Lyanna's memories are in the crypt.
Still, I have not found yet that he promised anything else to his sister, but perhaps i have not looked hard enough.
This is important because, if that is the only promise, then is there a baby? or as discussed elsewhere, a fatal wound caused by some other 'gore'.
During or after the brothel visit Ned thinks of the price he paid to keep his promises to Lyanna. That pretty much implies that there was more than one, even if we don't know what they are, except for her wish to be buried at home.
Also, didn't he only start to think about broken promises in the black cells? A failed coup and subsequent imprisonment can prevent one from keeping a great number of promises...
We know these 3 men had loyalty to Rhaegar over Aerys
Do we? Hightower was the one who warned Jaime not to judge Aerys when he killed Brandon/Rickard, and the dream-dialogue (unreliable as it might be) also makes him sound more like Aerys's man. Am I missing something?
Anyway, nice set of possible explanations Not that they're completely unproblematic, but the problems are certainly not bigger than the ones the standard "protect Lyanna and Jon who were hiding in the tower" on raises (even without the secret marriage/trueborn son part added).
And Ran responded to affirm that in fact, this was not an error in the World Book, but a reporting of historical records at the time...
Not an error. Primogeniture is customary, but not binding... especially not to a king. We have other examples of people being passed over, or potentially passed over, for others.
Maester Yandel is merely reporting based on historical records on events of the time.
...
So when the world book revealed that yes, Viserys was indeed Aerys' heir even while Rhaegar's actual son Aegon was alive and well (this is prior to the Sack of KL and Gregor's murder of the children), that means that Rhaegar's children had been removed from the line of succession entirely.
Favouring Viserys over Aegon after Rhaegar's death is not nearly the same as disinheriting Rhaegar, or removing his children from the line of succession. For all we know, he might have just swapped their positions in he queue.
Note that for all his supposed mistrust for Rhaegar, it was Rhaegar he sent after the KotLT, he appointed Rhaegar's man as his new Hand and put Rhaegar in charge of dealing with the Rebellion, and there's no evidence that he was disinherited during all this. He did dislike Rhaegar's 'Dornish' offspring, though, even before the Dornish supposedly betrayed Rhaegar. So, rather than disinheriting Rhaegar posthumously, I think it makes more sense to assume that it was specifically Aegon (or at worst both children by Elia) that he removed from (or pushed back in) the line.
This has been bugging me for some time. How do we know this? I was unable to find it in the books or TWoIaF. Is it from the app? Or is it an assumption (fairly reasonable) that got factified?
Hi Nan. Yup, it's from the app so its veracity is highly suspect and I would call its likelihood of being a fan theory or an artifact of wiki-errors rather high. I was playing devil's advocate on that point. Even if we allow that Aerys sent Hightower after Rhaegar for the purpose of leading the Dornish forces, it seems odd that he would be at the tower of joy based upon that order for several reasons.
By the time Ned found Gerold at the toj, Rhaegar had already been summoned, and, Rhaegar was of course already dead. You'd think his best friend and the LC of the KG would have wanted to prevent that.
Gerold was awol, as he was neither protecting the king, nor was he protecting the king's heir. If he was at the toj on orders, it seems unlikely they were from Aerys.
Rather than accompany the prince whom he was sent to summon into battle, Gerold is hanging around a tower in the Red Mountains of Dorne, far from any combat.
Unless it was planned for Gerold and his two fellows to obstruct Eddard Stark's cold rage tour in the Red Mountains, they seem to have been about a fool's errands, or setup for failure.
But if we take the fevered transcript to bear, they seem rather confident and obstinate:
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
If Lyanna's loyalties to House Stark had withered beneath her love for Rhaegar's dynasty, I might be able to reconcile the manner in which the KG treat Ned. Otherwise, it is difficult to reconcile, because we know that Lyanna not only had wolf-blood, and that she had no fondness for men who do not keep to one bed, we also know she was loyal to her usurper-blooded brothers and retained loyalty to Winterfell.
This seems odd if she were at the tower of joy by choice. Combined with the attitude of the KG above, it makes me think that if Lyanna were indeed at the tower of joy, she was there as a political abductee and not as a lady Rhaegar loved. Otherwise, why deny her brother access after the fall and exile of the dragons?
Would like to hear your thoughts on this kingmonkey.
Can you guys please quote those words? The book passage does say that, but it's also quite clearly speaking about the battle participants, rather than any other people who might have been present. And SSM-wise, the last time something like this came up, it turned out to refer to this, which is a far cry from him confirming that only Ned and Howland left the ToJ. So, if there's new info, please share the source
I know this was directed at wolfmaid7, but that is indeed all the available info.
So you are leaning toward the idea that there were other people present at the tower of joy?
During or after the brothel visit Ned thinks of the price he paid to keep his promises to Lyanna. That pretty much implies that there was more than one, even if we don't know what they are, except for her wish to be buried at home.
Also, didn't he only start to think about broken promises in the black cells? A failed coup and subsequent imprisonment can prevent one from keeping a great number of promises...
Ned does indeed reflect upon the "price paid" at the brothel:
"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.
While he does not explictly mention breaking these promises, he is burdened by the rain, and likens it to warm "blood" and "old guilts".
"Chataya runs a choice establishment," Littlefinger said as they rode. "I've half a mind to buy it. Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else." Lord Petyr chuckled at his own wit. Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face. "Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
Do we? Hightower was the one who warned Jaime not to judge Aerys when he killed Brandon/Rickard, and the dream-dialogue (unreliable as it might be) also makes him sound more like Aerys's man. Am I missing something?
Well, I'd argue we know beyond any doubt that Gerold and Jaime were Rhaegar's men, not Aerys', but that is another theory.
Favouring Viserys over Aegon after Rhaegar's death is not nearly the same as disinheriting Rhaegar, or removing his children from the line of succession. For all we know, he might have just swapped their positions in he queue.
Rhaegar need not have been disinherited. He was dead.
But yes, naming Viserys his heir did indeed remove Rhaegar's children from the line of succession. Viserys was King at that point, and his future sons would have been next in the line of succession.
Aerys didn't appoint Aegon as Vice-President. He stripped Aegon of his birthright and title. Rhaegar was by all custom next in line. His son(s) would have come next in the line of succession, if not for Aerys' decree.
That decree meant that Viserys was the hier, which meant that future claims to the throne would have come from Viserys, rather than Rhaegar/Aegon. It's a significant distinction that validates much of the perspective in the smackdown dialogue at the tower of joy. The kingsguard abandoned the king, and Willem Darry was "a good man and true" in his protection of the heir.
This, again, seems to demonstrate that they are not Aerys' kingsguard, but Rhaegar's. Unless Aerys had a hidden interest or heir in Dorne (one that was of Aerys' own body rather than Rhaegar's), then they were not serving Aerys.
Note that for all his supposed mistrust for Rhaegar, it was Rhaegar he sent after the KotLT, he appointed Rhaegar's man as his new Hand and put Rhaegar in charge of dealing with the Rebellion, and there's no evidence that he was disinherited during all this.
I would argue that Rhaegar installed Jon Con as his (Rhaegar's) Hand. If Rhaegar was the usurper, it would explain Jaime's assassination, the attitude of the KG at the toj, Jon Con's appointment, Aerys' mistrust, and the capture of Elia and children as hostages.
In truth, we have more reason to assume Rhaegar had siezed control of the KG than we do reason to assume the KG were loyal to Aerys.
He did dislike Rhaegar's 'Dornish' offspring, though, even before the Dornish supposedly betrayed Rhaegar. So, rather than disinheriting Rhaegar posthumously, I think it makes more sense to assume that it was specifically Aegon (or at worst both children by Elia) that he removed from (or pushed back in) the line.
We agree regarding the posthumous disinheritance.
But no, successions do not work that way. By naming Viserys heir, Aerys did not simply discriminate against Aegon and delay his ascent to the throne. Aerys decreed that the sovereignty of his house would stem from Viserys' progeny.
And really, this entire part of the debate is moot. Viserys died in 298 AC (~fifteen years after the showdown at the tower of joy). Thus regardless, at the time of the confrontation between Ned and the kingsguard, Viserys had already been the heir apparent and was at that time the one true king of the Seven Kingdoms.
By the time he fled, Willem Darry was the one and only true knight of the true-king's guard. Prince Lewyn, Jonothor Darry, and Ser Barristan may have been true until the end of the Battle of the Trident. The rest were either dogs belonging to the prince-usurper, or roadies looking to party on the cold rage tour.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Do we? Hightower was the one who warned Jaime not to judge Aerys when he killed Brandon/Rickard, and the dream-dialogue (unreliable as it might be) also makes him sound more like Aerys's man. Am I missing something?
Gerold Hightower and Elia Martell get ambushed and robbed by the Kingswood Brotherhood.
"Aye. I will." Ulmer, stooped and grey-bearded and loose of skin and limb, stepped to the mark and pulled an arrow from the quiver at his waist. In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups.
The campaign against the Kingswood Brotherhood occurs right in 281, only months before Harrenhal would occur, seeing as Jaime earns his knighthood against the Brotherhood at 15 and is then summoned to the Kingsguard, and invested only a few months later at Harrenhal, again at 15. So Gerold Hightower is guarding Elia very near to Harrenhal, while she's transporting large amounts of money.
So then the question is, why is Elia carting around massive quantities of gold right before Harrenhal, which was offering massive prizes to draw out the crowds so that Rhaegar could propose his coup before the lords of the realm, and why is Gerold Hightower the one escorting her? Gerold has to be in on the plan, and one of Rhaegar's men, if he's helping Rhaegar's wife move funds for the tourney.
Then I mean just look at the fact that the 3 KG at the TOJ are Oswell, Arthur, and Gerold. We know from Barristan that Oswell is the one who arranged for his brother Lord Whent to throw the tourney in the first place. And we know once more from Barristan that Rhaegar entrusted Arthur with something important at Harrenhal. Oswell and Arthur are demonstrably Rhaegar's men, aiding him to overthrow Aerys with Harrenhal. they then wind up at the TOJ. Then there's Gerold. Gerold then becomes the odd man out if he was never one of Rhaegar's men, and wasn't in league with him for Harrenhal, yet is at the TOJ. Yet we know that Gerold was helping Elia move funds right around the time that Harrenhal was being orchestrated. Which then links all 3 KG who are found at the TOJ to Rhaegar's plans at Harrenhal.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
The campaign against the Kingswood Brotherhood occurs right in 281, only months before Harrenhal would occur, seeing as Jaime earns his knighthood against the Brotherhood at 15 and is then summoned to the Kingsguard, and invested only a few months later at Harrenhal, again at 15. So Gerold Hightower is guarding Elia very near to Harrenhal, while she's transporting large amounts of money.
So then the question is, why is Elia carting around massive quantities of gold right before Harrenhal, which was offering massive prizes to draw out the crowds so that Rhaegar could propose his coup before the lords of the realm, and why is Gerold Hightower the one escorting her? Gerold has to be in on the plan, and one of Rhaegar's men, if he's helping Rhaegar's wife move funds for the tourney.
This makes a lot of sense. And makes me wonder again about the potential echoes in Elia's being attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood with Lyanna potentially been attacked by men sent by Tywin and the Brave Companions we know were sent by Tywin.
Could Tywin have been involved some way in all of these attacks? Getting rid of Elia would help Tywin get Cersei on the throne as Rhaegar's queen.
Then I mean just look at the fact that the 3 KG at the TOJ are Oswell, Arthur, and Gerold. We know from Barristan that Oswell is the one who arranged for his brother Lord Whent to throw the tourney in the first place. And we know once more from Barristan that Rhaegar entrusted Arthur with something important at Harrenhal. Oswell and Arthur are demonstrably Rhaegar's men, aiding him to overthrow Aerys with Harrenhal. they then wind up at the TOJ. Then there's Gerold. Gerold then becomes the odd man out if he was never one of Rhaegar's men, and wasn't in league with him for Harrenhal, yet is at the TOJ. Yet we know that Gerold was helping Elia move funds right around the time that Harrenhal was being orchestrated. Which then links all 3 KG who are found at the TOJ to Rhaegar's plans at Harrenhal.
This was not just about prophecy and blue roses--this was political messiness. Which is all the more reason for them not to risk it all by hiding out in the highway in Dorne.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
This seems odd if she were at the tower of joy by choice. Combined with the attitude of the KG above, it makes me think that if Lyanna were indeed at the tower of joy, she was there as a political abductee and not as a lady Rhaegar loved. Otherwise, why deny her brother access after the fall and exile of the dragons?
Or if they aren't "protecting" Lyanna from her brother or anyone else at all. If they are protecting another woman and her impending child, they can't negotiate over Lyanna. They would be protecting someone else. So, no need for them to bring Lyanna up.
One thing that struck me on the wording go the 3KG at the tower--it echoes this exchange between the Hound and 3 of the Brotherhood Without Banners--including Beric, who is replete with Arthur Dayne imagery.
"We are brothers here," Thoros of Myr declared. "Holy brothers, sworn to the realm, to our god, and to each other."
"The brotherhood without banners." Tom Sevenstrings plucked a string. "The knights of the hollow hill." "Knights?" Clegane made the word a sneer. "Dondarrion's a knight, but the rest of you are the sorriest lot of outlaws and broken men I've ever seen. I shit better men than you."
"Any knight can make a knight," said the scarecrow that was Beric Dondarrion, "and every man you see before you has felt a sword upon his shoulder. We are the forgotten fellowship."
"Rocks and trees and rivers, that's what your realm is made of," the Hound was saying. "Do the rocks need defending? Robert wouldn't have thought so. If he couldn't fuck it, fight it, or drink it, it bored him, and so would you . . . you brave companions."
Outrage swept the hollow hill. "Call us that name again, dog, and you'll swallow that tongue." Lem drew his longsword.
The Hound stared at the blade with contempt. "Here's a brave man, baring steel on a bound captive. Untie me, why don't you? We'll see how brave you are then." He glanced at the Mad Huntsman behind him. "How about you? Or did you leave all your courage in your kennels?"
Huntsman behind him. "How about you? Or did you leave all your courage in your kennels?"
"No, but I should have left you in a crow cage." The Huntsman drew a knife. "I might still."
The Hound laughed in his face.
"Robert is the king of the worms now. Is that why you're down in the earth, to keep his court for him?" "The king is dead," the scarecrow knight admitted, "but we are still king's men,though the royal banner we bore was lost at the Mummer's Ford when your brother's butchers fell upon us." He touched his breast with a fist. "Robert is slain, but his realm remains. And we defend her."
"Her?" The Hound snorted. "Is she your mother, Dondarrion? Or your whore?" Dondarrion? Beric Dondarrion had been handsome; Sansa's friend Jeyne had fallen in love with him. Even Jeyne Poole was not so blind as to think this man was fair. Yet when Arya looked at him again, she saw it; the remains of a forked purple lightning bolt on the cracked enamel of his breastplate. (Storm, Arya VI).
They are very defiant--just like the 3KG.
Plus, note that Arya, the Lyanna-Like Stark Maid is there. Not a prisoner, got there by accident, but not free to leave. Because they have their mission.
And also note that Arya is the one that focuses on Beric, bringing up his Dayne-like imagery for the reader.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.