Lucifer actually does mean Lightbringer!

I suspect martin took some inspiration from Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's books written in the mid 70s. Not sure if you have read them.

The Mote in God's Eye: a sun in front of another sun, a parable about not judging others, aliens who breed like flies and so end up recycling their civilisation on a regular basis.

Of course, Lucifer's Hammer, which is all about the impact of a seriously large comet on the earth.

Don't forget Tyrion is also a giant... of Lannister. Makes me wonder if he is the actual giant that Sansa will slay. Robin's toy is a joke. Baelish is a red herring. Tyrion is becoming more and more villainous.  Probably not but its interesting to think about it.

Sorry if its off topic but you got me thinking about the many things Tyrion is called. 

Yes, I'm always thinking about magic and symbolism. I do not think there is an in-world connection between Dawn the Visenya creating the KG, no. I was talking about symbolism only.

Yeah I am aware of the Monkey show but shamefully I haven't looked it up to watch. 

I only dipped into the dragon links to Winterfell, because it was not the main point of the essay. But perhaps re-read that one section again and see if you can see my side of it. Not as fact, but as a possibility. 

I do think the Battle Isle fortress was built by Dawn Age dragonlords, In fact, I am pretty sure I was the first motherfucker to suggest that, which I did in my most popular Westeros.org essay ever, Fingerprints of the Dawn. I will be revamping that for a joint pod with History of Westeros. 

I need to read your green men post, link?

Monkey Knife Fight!

LmL--

First up--this is amazing!! I'm going through it in pieces due to time constraints and the struggle to read with a migraine, but some initial questions:



I agree that the scene is consistent with Evenstar--but it's also a counterfeit. A comet is "impersonating" the constancy of the Evenstar/Morningstar.

So, that perhaps would reinforce the idea that "Lightbringer" was a counterfeit of the original idea on ending the Long Night, yes? That the Lightbringer myth may have been created later as a counterfeit to the "real" sword and the "real" way dawn returned after a real morning and evening star?





Though I need clarification on what you mean by a "pair" of swords. Seems like Dawn is the original and Lightbringer is the counterfeit--like the Red Comet is acting as a counterfeit evenstar, a fleeting thing that Dany takes as a sign when she wakes her dragons with blood sacrifice--power, yes.

But not power in line with nature--like evening and morningstars, or dusk and dawn--natural processes. The blood magic is an abominable version of that kind of natural, transformative power.

So, less a pairing and more a. . . false shadow???



Agreed--but it the light begins cold and white--it would still potentially be transformative into all colors--as all white light does. Vs only the one color.

And that puts me in mind again of this:


It's as if the "long pale flame" is the instigator of the rest of the light (light in this case which wakes both Rickon and the symbolic Stark dead)--the transformative light. But it can then turn into other colors.

So, I wonder what happens with Dawn when it's in "transformational" mode.



And may fit very well with the metaphor of the "fallen" star--the "star" warrior/defender who fell/failed from his destiny:

As you quoted: "Oh Lucifer, thou son of the morning, how thou art fallen."

So, the sword Dawn, as voice argues, not from a physical star, but taken from a fallen "star"--fallen defender and hero.

Or. . . both.



YUP!



On the bolded--a lot of Biblical scholars now think John of Patmos was writing about his own day and promising that the Second Coming of Christ would save the faithful from the trials of the Roman Empire. He also seems to have thought that the Second Coming would be in his lifetime.

I'm pretty sure this interpretation of Revelation had been around for a while by the time Martin started writing his series.

So, the idea of multiple calamities, and happening more than once and the savior and the morning star--the stars as salvation and heralds of the dawn.

If so, are you open to the option that the fallen star idea in the novels is strictly metaphorical, too? Or is that a bridge too far?

Will be back for more when my brain finishes playing with all of this.