I'm leaning toward the unlisted "none of the above" option. I mean, I'm totally on board with blood magic being part of the WW breeding ritual or whatever, but I don't believe for a second that the shadows have anything to do with it.
Back on Heresy a few of us had a discussion about the "types" of magic and whether they were all independent magics, magics sharing a single origin but diverging into different forms along the way, or the types being in one single magical pool but merely used in different ways.
I lean more toward #2 with a smidge of #1 thrown in....ice magic and shadow magic share a root system but have evolved into their own 'things' that happen to oppose each other. GRRM is clearly fond of inverse parallels and this is just another one, IMO. Getting into shadowbabies that take corporeal form once they get north of the equator and turn into dessicated WWs with Predator armor is just murking up the story waaaaaaay to much for me. I apply the KISS principle here - they are two different things that happen to utilize similar practices, and most of the origin and/or the purpose will remain unknown because IT'S MAGIC.
Yes I also agree that we may never fully find out the origin and purpose behind some of the events that are related to magic because it will be "magic" and that is the only explanation we will get. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on my speculation
The Shadows would be combined with the bodies of the person/baby to form the White Walkers.
I suggested something very similar many Heresies ago. My idea was that a Mel-like icy-woman was serving as queen of a race akin to ants or bees, being cared for by her drones. These drones bring her human infants that she does some unspeakable thing to in order to change them into white walkers. I imagined the process, at that time, as an act of reverse birth (which is kind of cool, considering the 1993 letter and "neverborn" term that came later).
Rather than exiting the Icy Woman's womb, they were being placed inside of it. That's why she requires newborns.
Anyway, it was rather crackpot to begin with, then took another leap towards the boobyhatch when I speculated that a "father" for the infant would then appear as she writhed in the Ice.
Somewhat sexual, somewhat child-labor, all carnal and quite scary for 7 year old Bran to witness when he looked north and north and north.
It would not matter who the parents are of the baby/ person being sacrificed. All that matters is that it is human blood. It does not necessarily have to be King's Blood or Craster's Blood etc.
The Shadows would go into the body of the baby/person and take it over as the body is transformed.
The show certainly portrayed it as something like that. It would be something if there were Child-Others. One more disturbing faction for the Watch to face...
Thank you for commentating! I like the bolded part a lot too!
I liked JNR's theory in an abstract sense. The parallels between the shadows and the Others are undeniable. I'm just not at all sold on a literal connection between what Stannis does and what we see in the north.
Though having men bear ultimate responsibility for their own problems does seem a GRRM-ish thing.
Thank you for commenting! Yeah I am just spitballing mostly here, all speculation
Totally agree with the bolded. To me I hope the White Walkers are in some way connected to men considering how often GRRM talks about the true conflict in the human heart!
The Shadows would be combined with the bodies of the person/baby to form the White Walkers.
I suggested something very similar many Heresies ago. My idea was that a Mel-like icy-woman was serving as queen of a race akin to ants or bees, being cared for by her drones. These drones bring her human infants that she does some unspeakable thing to in order to change them into white walkers. I imagined the process, at that time, as an act of reverse birth (which is kind of cool, considering the 1993 letter and "neverborn" term that came later).
Rather than exiting the Icy Woman's womb, they were being placed inside of it. That's why she requires newborns.
Anyway, it was rather crackpot to begin with, then took another leap towards the boobyhatch when I speculated that a "father" for the infant would then appear as she writhed in the Ice.
Somewhat sexual, somewhat child-labor, all carnal and quite scary for 7 year old Bran to witness when he looked north and north and north.
It would not matter who the parents are of the baby/ person being sacrificed. All that matters is that it is human blood. It does not necessarily have to be King's Blood or Craster's Blood etc.
The Shadows would go into the body of the baby/person and take it over as the body is transformed.
The show certainly portrayed it as something like that. It would be something if there were Child-Others. One more disturbing faction for the Watch to face...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
In a lot of ways I agree with your speculation that Craster's sons are used to become the others. My problem has always been and will always be a series of things.
First, despite Craster and the name's association to red herrings, I don't believe that it's a tongue in cheek way of Martin telling us not trust what he does. There is enough doubt and mistrust already written on the page without that little titbit. That mistrust is purposeful. There are authors that hide the truth by putting in the most unlikely of places.
Martin goes out of his way to set up a cult compound in which the wives can be seen as uneducated, brainwashed and generally unreliable narrators. Yet he gives them the line, 'they'll be here soon, the sons'. They are claiming that all their sons are white walker. How would they know this? We don't know. But to them, there is no doubt.
Second, the issue of the shadows developing a consciousness, self-awareness, language, and physical form, complete with accoutrements, is for me way too far a stretch. Much more likely that they are their own beings. Does this prove or disprove that they are Craster's sons? No. It does neither. But it does rule out that Shadows act independently.
There is no evidence that Shadows have any of the above things when they are born. They have a mission, and upon completion they end. They are a spell, and spells are not everlasting unless they are cast to be so. And we have no evidence of that being the case.
Third, is the issue of the blood sacrifice. Here is the main problem with combining the two. Shadows are not blood magic. Stannis surrendered nothing but his seed. By doing so, he gave up part of his physical essence since we see him diminished through Davo's eyes, and Melisandre tells us outright that his internal fires are burning so low, one more try at a Shadow would kill him. No one ever says a thing about Stannis being bled, or the use of leeches or anything of the sort to do with blood in the creation of Shadows.
While we have no evidence that Craster's boys are involved in blood magic either, and I maintain that they are not sacrificed in that way, it does not in any way mean that the two are alike. It would be the same as likening the Faceless men's face changing to Varys' changing identities. Mel using a glamour on Mance does not support the idea of the white walkers using glamours. We have no evidence of this. Disappearing from view or shifting like shadows so that they become hard to see does not mean they are Shadows/shadows or using glamours when they are described as having reflective armour.
/soapbox. sorry, lol.
No need to apologize or anything like that. I want comments on my speculation. You know I just had an interesting idea. There should be a Heresy Project on the White Walkers! We have really great minds here on The Last Hearth! There could be various theories such as the COTF created them, separate species, The original gods of the First Men. Any thoughts of on having a Heresy Project on the Others? I know we still are going through all the Alternatives to RLJ, but like for the future?
No need to apologize or anything like that. I want comments on my speculation. You know I just had an interesting idea. There should be a Heresy Project on the White Walkers! We have really great minds here on The Last Hearth! There could be various theories such as the COTF created them, separate species, The original gods of the First Men. Any thoughts of on having a Heresy Project on the Others? I know we still are going through all the Alternatives to RLJ, but like for the future?
We did do a special 100th anniversary project in which we talked about the white walkers. The OP was done by Grey Words, a member I wish we had here. Let me see if I can find it in a wee while.
Thanks for not taking my remarks about your ideas personal. I can get wee passionate about things and I sometimes feel I go too far. I threw just about everything but the kitchen sink into my reply.
As to the idea about making separate threads about Heretical ideas, I'm all for it. Doesn't matter if they've been done before because there are always new insights to be found when old ideas are brought up.
Sounds good and I don't get offended easily haha. Your critiques were well thought out and not personal at all Thank you for finding that old Heresy thread btw.
armstark was the one to originally think of the idea of the shadow and baby/blood sacrifice to create the bodies for the white walkers connection. My apologies to all. I have updated the OP to reflect that it was thought of already.
Damn I forgot the option of "Men twisted by magic" in the poll. I am warming up to that idea as well!
Well, seeing how GRRM is totally borrowing from LOTR, I would not be at all surprised to learn that Walkers are the ASOIAF version of the Nazgul.
"They were once men. Great kings of men. Then Sauron the deceiver gave to them nine rings of power. Blinded by their greed, they took them without question. One by one, they fell into darkness and now they're slaves to His will. They are the Nazgûls, Ringwraiths. Neither living nor dead. At all times, they feel the presence of the Ring. Drawn to the power of the One, they will never stop hunting you."
Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Úlairi, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death. — The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"
Sound familiar? Night's Queen, anyone?
Hmmm, and to continue, the Ringwraiths are mostly invisible and need to wear cloaks to take form, they have horrible terrorizing cries, Frodo's view of them while wearing the One Ring is of pale withered figures in white robes and crowns, the Witch King carries a long pale sword and uses black magic to break the gates of Minas Tirith.
Yup, I'm convinced now - WWs = Nazgul. On to the balrog beneath Winterfell! :heavy breathing:
Damn I forgot the option of "Men twisted by magic" in the poll. I am warming up to that idea as well!
Well, seeing how GRRM is totally borrowing from LOTR, I would not be at all surprised to learn that Walkers are the ASOIAF version of the Nazgul.
"They were once men. Great kings of men. Then Sauron the deceiver gave to them nine rings of power. Blinded by their greed, they took them without question. One by one, they fell into darkness and now they're slaves to His will. They are the Nazgûls, Ringwraiths. Neither living nor dead. At all times, they feel the presence of the Ring. Drawn to the power of the One, they will never stop hunting you."
Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Úlairi, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death. — The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"
Sound familiar? Night's Queen, anyone?
Hmmm, and to continue, the Ringwraiths are mostly invisible and need to wear cloaks to take form, they have horrible terrorizing cries, Frodo's view of them while wearing the One Ring is of pale withered figures in white robes and crowns, the Witch King carries a long pale sword and uses black magic to break the gates of Minas Tirith.
Yup, I'm convinced now - WWs = Nazgul. On to the balrog beneath Winterfell! :heavy breathing:
=Starks of old? ::direwolf::
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
armstark was the one to originally think of the idea of the shadow and baby/blood sacrifice to create the bodies for the white walkers connection. My apologies to all. I have updated the OP to reflect that it was thought of already.
No need to apologize! I guess everything was already thought of somewhere by someone
I want to point out though that my theory is a little bit different from the one I posted in JNR's thread. That was just an attempt to combine the two.
I never thought of the shadowbabies in context with the Others - that was all JNR. My thinking is that instead of shadows it are old souls from the Heart of Winter that get the newly created ice bodies from some kind of magical ritual sacrifice of Craster's sons. Think for example of the Last Hero and his 12 companions whose souls endured after death in the Heart of Winter for thousands of years.
I think it is much more elegant than Black Crow's interpretation of the sons (= they get magically changed into Others, they are the Others) because it does not require them to learn a bunch of things like swordplay, language and a common purpose. These old souls from the Heart of Winter already know how to fight and how to speak that language - they just need to get a feeling for their new body and are ready to go.
Also we have several examples already of souls being stored in Hearts: the blue, corrupted Heart of the Undying and the Heart Trees. I think in general a persons soul resides in his heart in Martin's world. Which is also the reason btw. why Daenerys has to eat the stallion's heart and why Varamyr still has Haggon's voice in his thoughts (he ate his heart). This also gives more meaning to the threat to Jon in the infamous pink letter: I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.
Then there is of course Stannis' burning Heart and Melisandre says to Jon Snow: The heart is all that matters.
Some day I need to write this all down in one coherent theory and call it "The Heart of the story", which is maybe a little ambitious ^^
So kind of like reincarnation, but you don't forget your past life?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
armstark was the one to originally think of the idea of the shadow and baby/blood sacrifice to create the bodies for the white walkers connection. My apologies to all. I have updated the OP to reflect that it was thought of already.
No need to apologize! I guess everything was already thought of somewhere by someone
I want to point out though that my theory is a little bit different from the one I posted in JNR's thread. That was just an attempt to combine the two.
I never thought of the shadowbabies in context with the Others - that was all JNR. My thinking is that instead of shadows it are old souls from the Heart of Winter that get the newly created ice bodies from some kind of magical ritual sacrifice of Craster's sons. Think for example of the Last Hero and his 12 companions whose souls endured after death in the Heart of Winter for thousands of years.
I think it is much more elegant than Black Crow's interpretation of the sons (= they get magically changed into Others, they are the Others) because it does not require them to learn a bunch of things like swordplay, language and a common purpose. These old souls from the Heart of Winter already know how to fight and how to speak that language - they just need to get a feeling for their new body and are ready to go.
Also we have several examples already of souls being stored in Hearts: the blue, corrupted Heart of the Undying and the Heart Trees. I think in general a persons soul resides in his heart in Martin's world. Which is also the reason btw. why Daenerys has to eat the stallion's heart and why Varamyr still has Haggon's voice in his thoughts (he ate his heart). This also gives more meaning to the threat to Jon in the infamous pink letter: I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.
Then there is of course Stannis' burning Heart and Melisandre says to Jon Snow: The heart is all that matters.
Some day I need to write this all down in one coherent theory and call it "The Heart of the story", which is maybe a little ambitious ^^
I would love to read this essay if/when you write it This is now one of my favorite theories!
Also we have several examples already of souls being stored in Hearts: the blue, corrupted Heart of the Undying and the Heart Trees. I think in general a persons soul resides in his heart in Martin's world. Which is also the reason btw. why Daenerys has to eat the stallion's heart and why Varamyr still has Haggon's voice in his thoughts (he ate his heart). This also gives more meaning to the threat to Jon in the infamous pink letter: I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.
Then there is of course Stannis' burning Heart and Melisandre says to Jon Snow: The heart is all that matters.
Gaaaah, I love this interpretation. Please write your theory! (And repost your theory on keeping Lyanna away from the trees - love that one too.)
I like the idea of the White Walkers being men who are twisted/changed by magic. Given how often GRRM talks about the conflict of the human heart it would be very interesting if The Night's Watch was actually fighting humans (twisted by magic).