Can CotF create a Wall that they themselves can't penetrate?
Aug 15, 2016 1:17:03 GMT
voice and Wraith like this
Post by kienn on Aug 15, 2016 1:17:03 GMT
Is the Wall a shield against magic?
George has subtly let us know that it is. As George’s favorite character Jon seems to speak with the author’s own voice when he realizes that he had lost his connection with Ghost when crossing the Wall. Don’t forget that Ghost was the first to open his eyes, just like Jon. Jon Snow knows everything!
Too on the nose? No. No this is perfect…
[1] A SoS - Jon V
Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone.
[2] A SoS - Jon VII
Jon sat between two merlons with only a scarecrow for company and watched the Stallion gallop up the sky. Or was it the Horned Lord? He wondered where Ghost was now. He wondered about Ygritte as well, and told himself that way lay madness.
[3] A SoS - Jon VIII
Even beneath the furs, he was cold. Ghost had shared his cell before the ranging, warming it against the chill of night. And in the wild, Ygritte had slept beside him. Both gone now. He had burned Ygritte himself, as he knew she would have wanted, and Ghost . . . Where are you?
[4] A SoS - Jon XII
"Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.”
So the Wall clearly blocks Jon’s warg connection with Ghost, but how does it affect other magic?
[7] A DwD - Melisandre
My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
Melisandre clearly believes her magic is much stronger at the Wall. Possibly irrelevant since she doesn’t mention casting spells through the wall… but interesting nonetheless.
Various rationalizations have been given for each of these occurrences, but in the interest of keeping the magic system simple let’s turn around the assumption. With Jon as the only PoV giving evidence that the Wall blocks any sort of magic… what if he’s wrong? Of course now we must find another explanation for Jon losing his connection to Ghost.
Let us begin with Jon’s first dream as Ghost.
The full sequence is several pages long so I urge you to look it up in order to see the full context of the quote.
[8-10] A CoK - Jon VII
When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.
. . .
"Ghost!" Jon shouted, sitting up. He could still feel the talons, the pain. "Ghost, to me!”
[8]
There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent.
This portion itself has been proposed as a confirmation, albeit from the witness in question, of Jon’s conclusion of the Wall. But one must realize that this portion is before his skinchanging gift has been awoken by Bran and is in fact not even in Ghost’s perspective, but Jon as a different wolf. This is clear from 3 facts:
[9]
A weirwood.
. . .
The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?
Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.
. . .
Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.
Here Bran reaches into Jon’s dream and wakes his skinchanging talent. Note that right now Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell and Jon is north of the Wall…
[10]
And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice.
. . .
This is no army, no more than it is a town. This is a whole people come together.
. . .
Then a sudden gust of cold made his fur stand up, and the air thrilled to the sound of wings. As he lifted his eyes to the ice-white mountain heights above, a shadow plummeted out of the sky. A shrill scream split the air. He glimpsed blue-grey pinions spread wide, shutting out the sun . . .
"Ghost!" Jon shouted, sitting up. He could still feel the talons, the pain. "Ghost, to me!”
Jon finally has his first wolf dream inside Ghost.
Now we can move forward as Jon develops his new skill.
[11] A CoK - Jon VIII
After that, every night seemed colder than the night before, and more lonely. Ghost was not always with them, but he was never far either. Even when they were apart, Jon sensed his nearness. He was glad for that.
Jon immediately develops a sixth sense for Ghost.
Soon after this of course Jon is forced to kill Qhorin and join the wildlings, he meets Mance and begins traveling with them while Ygritte tries to seduce him.
[12] A SoS - Jon II
But he was a man of the Night's Watch, he had taken a vow. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. He had said the words before the weirwood, before his father's gods. He could not unsay them . . . no more than he could admit the reason for his reluctance to Tormund Thunderfist, Father to Bears.
"Do you mislike the girl?" Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants.
"No, but I . . ." What can I say that he will believe? "I am still too young to wed.”
"Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?”
Well Robb does… a code that he and Jon seem to share. Others have argued that Jon and Ygritte were married in the wildling custom since he “stole” her and bedded her. Which brings up something we hear later…
[13] A DwD - Prologue
A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him.
Polygamy is allowed of course… Varamyr controls 3 wolves at once and Robb still seems to have things going on with Grey Wind even after he marries Jeyne…
But let’s get back to Jon
[14] A SoS - Jon II
It was not the horse he wanted so much as Ghost, but the direwolf was nowhere to be seen. He could be leagues away by now, ripping out the throat of some elk. Perhaps that was just as well.
Since the start of SoS there isn’t any solid evidence of Jon skinchanging with Ghost at all. No dreams, no sixth-sense. Has he already lost it? Perhaps his guilt over killing Qhorin is getting to him?
[15] A SoS - Jon II
The smile she gave him was almost shy. "Find another place for Ghost to sleep tonight, Jon Snow. It's like Mance said. Deeds is truer than words.”
Or perhaps it’s Ygritte that’s distracting him?
Recall quotes 1-3
[1]
Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone.
[2]
He wondered where Ghost was now. He wondered about Ygritte as well
[3]
Ghost had shared his cell before the ranging, warming it against the chill of night. And in the wild, Ygritte had slept beside him. Both gone now.
They certainly seem pretty tied up in his head…
Let’s get to the part where Jon climbs the Wall.
[16] A SoS Jon III
"I am going up the hill to look for Ghost," he told the Thenns at the cave mouth, and they grunted and let him pass.
. . .
He found Ghost atop the hill, as he thought he might. The white wolf never howled, yet something drew him to the heights all the same, and he would squat there on his hindquarters, hot breath rising in a white mist as his red eyes drank the stars.
“Thought”!? Shouldn’t you “know” Jon?
[17] A SoS - Jon III
The wildlings called Jon Snow a warg, but if so he was a poor one. He did not know how to put on a wolf skin, the way Orell had with his eagle before he'd died. Once Jon had dreamed that he was Ghost, looking down upon the valley of the Milkwater where Mance Rayder had gathered his people, and that dream had turned out to be true. But he was not dreaming now, and that left him only words.
I agree Jon, you’re a terrible warg.
So Jon climbs the wall and continues his whining about his vows, and Qhorin, and Ygritte, until he crosses back north of the Wall and immediately senses Ghost again. Right?
[18] A SoS - Jon X
Jon took a step toward the tent, thinking of the Horn of Winter, but the shadowcat blocked him, tail lashing. The beast's nostrils flared, and slaver ran from his curved front teeth. He smells my fear. He missed Ghost more than ever then. The two wolves were behind him, growling.
Or not.
George has subtly let us know that it is. As George’s favorite character Jon seems to speak with the author’s own voice when he realizes that he had lost his connection with Ghost when crossing the Wall. Don’t forget that Ghost was the first to open his eyes, just like Jon. Jon Snow knows everything!
Too on the nose? No. No this is perfect…
[1] A SoS - Jon V
Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone.
[2] A SoS - Jon VII
Jon sat between two merlons with only a scarecrow for company and watched the Stallion gallop up the sky. Or was it the Horned Lord? He wondered where Ghost was now. He wondered about Ygritte as well, and told himself that way lay madness.
[3] A SoS - Jon VIII
Even beneath the furs, he was cold. Ghost had shared his cell before the ranging, warming it against the chill of night. And in the wild, Ygritte had slept beside him. Both gone now. He had burned Ygritte himself, as he knew she would have wanted, and Ghost . . . Where are you?
[4] A SoS - Jon XII
"Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.”
So the Wall clearly blocks Jon’s warg connection with Ghost, but how does it affect other magic?
- Wight magic - Recall in AGoT when the 2 blue-eyed corpses are brought south of the Wall on Mormont’s orders and wake in the middle of the night? There have been many speculations that the wights are controlled by the Others by a form of mass-skinchanging. But apparently their version is able to cross through the Wall - if we’re safe in the assumption that the Others all reside to the north of course.
- Warg sibling connections
[5] A SoS - Bran I
He had a pack as well, once. Five they had been, and a sixth who stood aside. Somewhere down inside him were the sounds the men had given them to tell one from the other, but it was not by their sounds he knew them. He remembered their scents, his brothers and his sisters. They all had smelled alike, had smelled of pack, but each was different too.
His angry brother with the hot green eyes was near, the prince felt, though he had not seen him for many hunts. Yet with every sun that set he grew more distant, and he had been the last. The others were far scattered, like leaves blown by the wild wind.
Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back . . . all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.
Bran/Summer is clearly able to sense his other siblings, even Ghost despite the Wall being between them at this time.
He had a pack as well, once. Five they had been, and a sixth who stood aside. Somewhere down inside him were the sounds the men had given them to tell one from the other, but it was not by their sounds he knew them. He remembered their scents, his brothers and his sisters. They all had smelled alike, had smelled of pack, but each was different too.
His angry brother with the hot green eyes was near, the prince felt, though he had not seen him for many hunts. Yet with every sun that set he grew more distant, and he had been the last. The others were far scattered, like leaves blown by the wild wind.
Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back . . . all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.
Bran/Summer is clearly able to sense his other siblings, even Ghost despite the Wall being between them at this time.
- Varamyr & Orell’s Eagle
[6] A SoS - Jon X
The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.”
"So we know," said Mance. "We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We know. And now you know we know." He opened the flap of the tent. "Come inside. The rest of you, wait here.”
It seems as if Varamyr is able to fly over the Wall to scout Castle Black.
The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.”
"So we know," said Mance. "We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We know. And now you know we know." He opened the flap of the tent. "Come inside. The rest of you, wait here.”
It seems as if Varamyr is able to fly over the Wall to scout Castle Black.
- Melisandre
[7] A DwD - Melisandre
My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
Melisandre clearly believes her magic is much stronger at the Wall. Possibly irrelevant since she doesn’t mention casting spells through the wall… but interesting nonetheless.
- Bloodraven has been spying on the world south of the Wall from north of the Wall for decades!
Various rationalizations have been given for each of these occurrences, but in the interest of keeping the magic system simple let’s turn around the assumption. With Jon as the only PoV giving evidence that the Wall blocks any sort of magic… what if he’s wrong? Of course now we must find another explanation for Jon losing his connection to Ghost.
Let us begin with Jon’s first dream as Ghost.
The full sequence is several pages long so I urge you to look it up in order to see the full context of the quote.
[8-10] A CoK - Jon VII
When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.
. . .
"Ghost!" Jon shouted, sitting up. He could still feel the talons, the pain. "Ghost, to me!”
[8]
There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent.
This portion itself has been proposed as a confirmation, albeit from the witness in question, of Jon’s conclusion of the Wall. But one must realize that this portion is before his skinchanging gift has been awoken by Bran and is in fact not even in Ghost’s perspective, but Jon as a different wolf. This is clear from 3 facts:
- This dream is in a forest whereas Jon & Ghost are both above the tree line in the mountains
- This dream takes place at night whereas Jon falls asleep just before noon and wakes only several hours later
- This wolf vocalizes a howl whereas Ghost is silent
[9]
A weirwood.
. . .
The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?
Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.
. . .
Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.
Here Bran reaches into Jon’s dream and wakes his skinchanging talent. Note that right now Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell and Jon is north of the Wall…
[10]
And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice.
. . .
This is no army, no more than it is a town. This is a whole people come together.
. . .
Then a sudden gust of cold made his fur stand up, and the air thrilled to the sound of wings. As he lifted his eyes to the ice-white mountain heights above, a shadow plummeted out of the sky. A shrill scream split the air. He glimpsed blue-grey pinions spread wide, shutting out the sun . . .
"Ghost!" Jon shouted, sitting up. He could still feel the talons, the pain. "Ghost, to me!”
Jon finally has his first wolf dream inside Ghost.
Now we can move forward as Jon develops his new skill.
[11] A CoK - Jon VIII
After that, every night seemed colder than the night before, and more lonely. Ghost was not always with them, but he was never far either. Even when they were apart, Jon sensed his nearness. He was glad for that.
Jon immediately develops a sixth sense for Ghost.
Soon after this of course Jon is forced to kill Qhorin and join the wildlings, he meets Mance and begins traveling with them while Ygritte tries to seduce him.
[12] A SoS - Jon II
But he was a man of the Night's Watch, he had taken a vow. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. He had said the words before the weirwood, before his father's gods. He could not unsay them . . . no more than he could admit the reason for his reluctance to Tormund Thunderfist, Father to Bears.
"Do you mislike the girl?" Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants.
"No, but I . . ." What can I say that he will believe? "I am still too young to wed.”
"Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?”
Well Robb does… a code that he and Jon seem to share. Others have argued that Jon and Ygritte were married in the wildling custom since he “stole” her and bedded her. Which brings up something we hear later…
[13] A DwD - Prologue
A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him.
Polygamy is allowed of course… Varamyr controls 3 wolves at once and Robb still seems to have things going on with Grey Wind even after he marries Jeyne…
But let’s get back to Jon
[14] A SoS - Jon II
It was not the horse he wanted so much as Ghost, but the direwolf was nowhere to be seen. He could be leagues away by now, ripping out the throat of some elk. Perhaps that was just as well.
Since the start of SoS there isn’t any solid evidence of Jon skinchanging with Ghost at all. No dreams, no sixth-sense. Has he already lost it? Perhaps his guilt over killing Qhorin is getting to him?
[15] A SoS - Jon II
The smile she gave him was almost shy. "Find another place for Ghost to sleep tonight, Jon Snow. It's like Mance said. Deeds is truer than words.”
Or perhaps it’s Ygritte that’s distracting him?
Recall quotes 1-3
[1]
Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off. Even with Ygritte sleeping beside him, he felt alone. He did not want to die alone.
[2]
He wondered where Ghost was now. He wondered about Ygritte as well
[3]
Ghost had shared his cell before the ranging, warming it against the chill of night. And in the wild, Ygritte had slept beside him. Both gone now.
They certainly seem pretty tied up in his head…
Let’s get to the part where Jon climbs the Wall.
[16] A SoS Jon III
"I am going up the hill to look for Ghost," he told the Thenns at the cave mouth, and they grunted and let him pass.
. . .
He found Ghost atop the hill, as he thought he might. The white wolf never howled, yet something drew him to the heights all the same, and he would squat there on his hindquarters, hot breath rising in a white mist as his red eyes drank the stars.
“Thought”!? Shouldn’t you “know” Jon?
[17] A SoS - Jon III
The wildlings called Jon Snow a warg, but if so he was a poor one. He did not know how to put on a wolf skin, the way Orell had with his eagle before he'd died. Once Jon had dreamed that he was Ghost, looking down upon the valley of the Milkwater where Mance Rayder had gathered his people, and that dream had turned out to be true. But he was not dreaming now, and that left him only words.
I agree Jon, you’re a terrible warg.
So Jon climbs the wall and continues his whining about his vows, and Qhorin, and Ygritte, until he crosses back north of the Wall and immediately senses Ghost again. Right?
[18] A SoS - Jon X
Jon took a step toward the tent, thinking of the Horn of Winter, but the shadowcat blocked him, tail lashing. The beast's nostrils flared, and slaver ran from his curved front teeth. He smells my fear. He missed Ghost more than ever then. The two wolves were behind him, growling.
Or not.
Muahahahahahaa!!!
