Doing a search, I found the first mention on "queen of love and beauty" in Clash when Jorah remembers his victory at Lannisport where he met Lynesse, and all other tourney queens are "queen of love and beauty". The only two I could find with "queen of beauty" is this for Catelyn and Ned for Lyanna.
So, does that mean Martin expanded on the title from the second book (and had a bad proof reader), or is there a difference? Personally I'm not fully convinced Littlefinger ever loved Catelyn, it might just be desire. Either for her, her body or her station.
Love is a difficult thing, especially for stupid teens. I think he thought he was in love with her but the tragic thing is he thought she was in love with him but she actually wasn't.
This, he didn't love her and nice find! I don't think it's an omission on Martin's part. It's possible that Littlefinger's use of the term informs Ned's use of the term; since we know more about Littlefinger than Rhaegar.
Sheesh that is a sad state of affairs considering how little we know about Baelish.
Now that I think of it again, he does challenge Brandon nearly losing his life. That does lack a certain amount of judgement considering that LF was so outmatched. He must have thought he had some kind of claim on her.
Love is a difficult thing, especially for stupid teens. I think he thought he was in love with her but the tragic thing is he thought she was in love with him but she actually wasn't.
Oh, on many ways that is the worst during the teens! I just can't decide what I think about it.
On one side we get the majority of the information through Catelyn and Sansa, both pretty deluded in some ways. So I don't trust them very much. On the other we do have the duell with Brandon, which suggests some sort of feelings and strong ones at that. Still, it's that nagging suspicion that it's not Cat herself he wants. Perhaps an image in his head and/or her station etc. Basically I doubt he loved Cat, as he loved an image instead.
Personally I'm not fully convinced Littlefinger ever loved Catelyn, it might just be desire. Either for her, her body or her station.
I don't know what to think. There's this curious little passage from Cat's memories in ACOK
"Last night I dreamed of that time Lysa and I got lost while riding back from Seagard. Do you remember? That strange fog came up and we fell behind the rest of the party. Everything was grey, and I could not see a foot past the nose of my horse. We lost the road. The branches of the trees were like long skinny arms reaching out to grab us as we passed. Lysa started to cry, and when I shouted the fog seemed to swallow the sound. But Petyr knew where we were, and he rode back and found us . . ."
In the Alayne chapters he clearly sees Alayne as the daughter he and Cat should have had, even to arranging a fantastic marriage for her. Also, we're never informed of his reaction to Cat's death, are we.
Personally I'm not fully convinced Littlefinger ever loved Catelyn, it might just be desire. Either for her, her body or her station.
I don't know what to think. There's this curious little passage from Cat's memories in ACOK
"Last night I dreamed of that time Lysa and I got lost while riding back from Seagard. Do you remember? That strange fog came up and we fell behind the rest of the party. Everything was grey, and I could not see a foot past the nose of my horse. We lost the road. The branches of the trees were like long skinny arms reaching out to grab us as we passed. Lysa started to cry, and when I shouted the fog seemed to swallow the sound. But Petyr knew where we were, and he rode back and found us . . ."
In the Alayne chapters he clearly sees Alayne as the daughter he and Cat should have had, even to arranging a fantastic marriage for her. Also, we're never informed of his reaction to Cat's death, are we.
Well, on one side we get a glimpse of a very romantic young Petyr in several places. On the other he braggs about bedding both Tully sisters... Who blackens the name and reputation of the one you claim love??
So that's why I wonder if he truly loved her, or only the image he had made of her (at the time or later on). It might have been lust for power and position, but not so sure about that. Of course he might have loved her at first, then grown resentful after the shit hit the fan.
That we never get his reaction to her death is a good point, and something that might have informed us. He seems to loose his cool for a second when being offered Harrenhal, if Tyrion is to be trusted (he might not be), and could have done so when hearing this as well.
What he tells Sansa/Alayne I take with about 20 pounds of salt at least! Lies with a hint of truth there I think. He is getting her under his unquestioning control after all! He learns early on her romantically inclined mind, and plays on it at every turn he can.
I don't know what to think. There's this curious little passage from Cat's memories in ACOK
In the Alayne chapters he clearly sees Alayne as the daughter he and Cat should have had, even to arranging a fantastic marriage for her. Also, we're never informed of his reaction to Cat's death, are we.
Well, on one side we get a glimpse of a very romantic young Petyr in several places. On the other he braggs about bedding both Tully sisters... Who blackens the name and reputation of the one you claim love??
So that's why I wonder if he truly loved her, or only the image he had made of her (at the time or later on). It might have been lust for power and position, but not so sure about that. Of course he might have loved her at first, then grown resentful after the shit hit the fan.
That we never get his reaction to her death is a good point, and something that might have informed us. He seems to loose his cool for a second when being offered Harrenhal, if Tyrion is to be trusted (he might not be), and could have done so when hearing this as well.
What he tells Sansa/Alayne I take with about 20 pounds of salt at least! Lies with a hint of truth there I think. He is getting her under his unquestioning control after all! He learns early on her romantically inclined mind, and plays on it at every turn he can.
As far as Baelish's bragging I have a theory. We have been shown throughout history that the whims and attitudes of the king determines that of the court. King Robert liked 3 things: fighting, hunting, and fucking. Baelish isn't good at the first two and not everyone can claim that they took the maidenhead of the daughter an LP.
Everyone assume (incorrectly IMO) that he don't see his emotional response to Cat's death, my response is thus. Which of our POV's he is going to pour his heart out to in KL? Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion no no no. Sansa would make more sense but he is trying to put on a brave face for her after the escape/start manipulating her.
Martin has admitted there is a bit of Jay Gatsby in Baelish and I think it paints him in a better light. Not a good one certainly but a more understandable one. We do stupid things for love or what we think is love.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
As far as Baelish's bragging I have a theory. We have been shown throughout history that the whims and attitudes of the king determines that of the court. King Robert liked 3 things: fighting, hunting, and fucking. Baelish isn't good at the first two and not everyone can claim that they took the maidenhead of the daughter an LP.
Everyone assume (incorrectly IMO) that he don't see his emotional response to Cat's death, my response is thus. Which of our POV's he is going to pour his heart out to in KL? Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion no no no. Sansa would make more sense but he is trying to put on a brave face for her after the escape/start manipulating her.
First part, good point. And not only taking the maidenhead of an LP's daughter, but the very daughter he lost a duel over. In a way one could argue he's telling the court that "I might have lost that duel to Brandon, but I had her first". Still think it's a shitty thing to say if he truly loved her.
Second part, agree that he probably wouldn't show his true feelings to any of these. And even if we did see a reaction from Sansa's POV, I probably wouldn't trust it anyway. Even if it was truthfull I would see it through "Littlefinger is manipulating her"-glasses, and so be just as far. That's the fundamental problem with shady characters like this, I end up mistrusting 99,99% of what they say and do.
Martin has admitted there is a bit of Jay Gatsby in Baelish and I think it paints him in a better light. Not a good one certainly but a more understandable one. We do stupid things for love or what we think is love.
I do recall reading that somewhere. My Gatsby is very poor, as I never did English higher than High School (that being a foreign language class, your classic litterature wasn't a heavy feature), so I'll have to refresh myself on that. I think I saw the movie many years ago, but I hardly remember it, LOL!
Now that I think of it again, he does challenge Brandon nearly losing his life. That does lack a certain amount of judgement considering that LF was so outmatched. He must have thought he had some kind of claim on her.
Sorry, lynn , for some reason I haven't seen this post before now!
While it's possible he thought love was a good enough claim, if he thought he'd taken her maidenhead it would make that claim stronger. At least in his head. IIRC he never said he took it at the time, and I'm not sure how that would turn out if he did. He did make a move that could've turned out to me suicidal, as he probably knew he would never beat a man with several years of training on him. Not sure if Brandon would've killed him if Catelyn hadn't begged for mercy or not, but it is possible he wouldn't have.
Second part, agree that he probably wouldn't show his true feelings to any of these. And even if we did see a reaction from Sansa's POV, I probably wouldn't trust it anyway
Only Cat
I'm really looking forward to how the Vale story will unfold.
Not sure if Brandon would've killed him if Catelyn hadn't begged for mercy or not, but it is possible he wouldn't have.
I'm not a real fan of Brandon. The way he's reported to have dissed his betrothed to Barbrey Dustin doesn't sit well. Still, would he have been enough of a brute to have killed Hoster Tully's foster-child?
I'm really looking forward to how the Vale story will unfold.
Haha, it probably won't be as most/any of the characters suspect, nor readers for that matter. As always, the wild card is that damnable little finger, who might have thought about most outcomes.
I'm not a real fan of Brandon. The way he's reported to have dissed his betrothed to Barbrey Dustin doesn't sit well. Still, would he have been enough of a brute to have killed Hoster Tully's foster-child?
Oh, I don't trust that Barbed (wire) Dustin at all! I take her words well salted, considering how jealous she seems to be sooooo many years later. While I'm not the biggest fan of womanizers in general, Brandon might have been a decent, though hot-tempered, young man. "Gallant fool" as Hoster calls him could be pointing to a better light to see him in. His future father-in-law could've used any number of words that would be less flattering, and he doesn't seem like one to mince his words that much, so I think it's worth keeping in mind. But with so little information to go on, it's really hard to say!
But your second point here is the crux, isn't it? We really have no reason to suspect he would've killed Petyr, who was barely a man grown. Ned seems to think highly of his late brother, even if he was a bit wild. Catelyn might take the credit, but she's far from reliable imo.
We do have one instance to compare with:
He knew the man only by reputation, to be sure . . . but the reputation was fearsome. When he was no more than sixteen, Prince Oberyn had been found abed with the paramour of old Lord Yronwood, a huge man of fierce repute and short temper. A duel ensued, though in view of the prince's youth and high birth, it was only to first blood. Both men took cuts, and honor was satisfied. Yet Prince Oberyn soon recovered, while Lord Yronwood's wounds festered and killed him. Afterward men whispered that Oberyn had fought with a poisoned sword, and ever thereafter friends and foes alike called him the Red Viper.
Tyrion V, Storm
While Petyr isn't of high birth, he is even younger than Oberyn was at the time. And Petyr is fostered by Hoster as you say, so would he allow a killing to take place? Somehow I think not, in both cases. Neither Brandon or Hoster was prepared to go that far, I'm inclined think.
First part, good point. And not only taking the maidenhead of an LP's daughter, but the very daughter he lost a duel over. In a way one could argue he's telling the court that "I might have lost that duel to Brandon, but I had her first". Still think it's a shitty thing to say if he truly loved her.
He may have lose the battle but won the war. Part of me wants to think that he did think that she loved him prior to the duel. Then after the duel I think his romantic view of the world was completely shattered.
By the point he is in KL I am sure his ambition > his lost love for Cat. Either way a shitty thing to say but Westeros is a very shitty place.
Second part, agree that he probably wouldn't show his true feelings to any of these. And even if we did see a reaction from Sansa's POV, I probably wouldn't trust it anyway. Even if it was truthfull I would see it through "Littlefinger is manipulating her"-glasses, and so be just as far. That's the fundamental problem with shady characters like this, I end up mistrusting 99,99% of what they say and do.
Varys and Baelish what I would give for a POV from either of them.
I do recall reading that somewhere. My Gatsby is very poor, as I never did English higher than High School (that being a foreign language class, your classic litterature wasn't a heavy feature), so I'll have to refresh myself on that. I think I saw the movie many years ago, but I hardly remember it, LOL!
Martin has mentioned several times that he feels sympathy for Gatsby. I see Baelish as his mirror of Gatsby in Westeros.
While Petyr isn't of high birth, he is even younger than Oberyn was at the time. And Petyr is fostered by Hoster as you say, so would he allow a killing to take place? Somehow I think not, in both cases. Neither Brandon or Hoster was prepared to go that far, I'm inclined think.
While I don't think Brandon intended to kill him the Wolf's blood is a fickle thing. Also no one is going to care if he killed Baelish, much like no one cared when when the Hound killed Mycah.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
While I don't think Brandon intended to kill him the Wolf's blood is a fickle thing. Also no one is going to care if he killed Baelish, much like no one cared when when the Hound killed Mycah.
I think Ned cared about what happened to "Arya's butcher boy", but perhaps felt unable to overrule this directive from the Queen. It does make me think we have a cruel parallel in either Rhaella or Elia that will serve as a mirror from the past. It really seems unlikely that it was Elia, but we only hear of how sweet and gentle and kind she was from Oberyn, so this view might be very skewed.
Arya also cared about Mycah, and she was hateful and kept the Hound on her list for a long time. When it came down to killing him, however, she did not. Now, it's possible she just wasn't willing to give him the gift of mercy and wanted him to suffer a while before death, or it's possible that the Hound had already found a bit of redemption in her eyes. If so, could this mirror a type of redemption for Petyr Baelish?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
While I don't think Brandon intended to kill him the Wolf's blood is a fickle thing. Also no one is going to care if he killed Baelish, much like no one cared when when the Hound killed Mycah.
I think Ned cared about what happened to "Arya's butcher boy", but perhaps felt unable to overrule this directive from the Queen. It does make me think we have a cruel parallel in either Rhaella or Elia that will serve as a mirror from the past. It really seems unlikely that it was Elia, but we only hear of how sweet and gentle and kind she was from Oberyn, so this view might be very skewed.
Arya also cared about Mycah, and she was hateful and kept the Hound on her list for a long time. When it came down to killing him, however, she did not. Now, it's possible she just wasn't willing to give him the gift of mercy and wanted him to suffer a while before death, or it's possible that the Hound had already found a bit of redemption in her eyes. If so, could this mirror a type of redemption for Petyr Baelish?
Mayhaps I misused the word care. What I meant is while some people would have been upset no one cared enough to do anything about it. No one would have raised their banners if Baelish would have been killed. Maybe Lysa would have plotted some kind of revenge but Hoster wouldn't have done anything.
When Ned was officially Hand he could have done something but he didn't. Arya of course wasn't in position to do anything at the time. Could be that she got her revenge by denying him the gift.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Mayhaps I misused the word care. What I meant is while some people would have been upset no one cared enough to do anything about it. No one would have raised their banners if Baelish would have been killed. Maybe Lysa would have plotted some kind of revenge but Hoster wouldn't have done anything.
You are probably correct that if Petyr had been killed in that duel, there would have been no great outcry because of it, although it certainly might have made a mess of Catelyn's marriage to Brandon. Still, that's a road not taken. And it's doubtful that Hoster would have not done anything either, but we really know very little about him. After all, Petyr might have come from a poor, minor house, but he was still a ward under Hoster's care, and if the boy had been killed under his care, then I would think there might have been some outcry about the fact that this duel was allowed and a fight to the death happened under Hoster's nose.
When Ned was officially Hand he could have done something but he didn't. Arya of course wasn't in position to do anything at the time. Could be that she got her revenge by denying him the gift.
I don't really know if Ned could have done anything about this. The Hound was working under direct orders of the Queen, and if the King was not going to contradict her order, or punish the Hound, then what is Ned going to do about it? His power derives from the King. Yes, as Hand, he has a lot of power, but he was very new to his position and didn't have power in KL that outweighed Lannister influence. Perhaps in a couple years, if he establishes his own power base in the south,, but not at the current time of our story.
And honestly, we hear from Jaime's POV later that what Cersei had demanded was that Arya lose her hand, and she and Robert argued into the night about this. And it the end, Arya kept her hand, so in a way, Robert won that confrontation, and if Ned was going to chose between the safty of his own daughter and a peasant boy, I am sure he would favor Arya's life and hand. GRRM gives us very complicated situations, which is one of the reasons the story is so compelling!
I reserve judgement on Arya and the Hound, since I don't think that story is over. But it's hard to say what could have been going through Arya's mind. And, if the Hound is the Gravedigger, which I would bet money that he is, then in the sense of Valar Morghulis, then it was not the Hound's time to die. Or, let me correct myself, it was the Hound's time to die, but it was not Sandor Clegane's time to die! That was always an interesting distinction in Arya's prayer. She never used the Hound's true name, like she did with Gregor!
Every night Arya would say their names. "Ser Gregor," she'd whisper to her stone pillow. "Dunsen, Polliver, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Amory, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." -Arya Stark
She did not know the Tickler's real name (I am interested about this, still) so she could not use his name, but she does know the Hound's real name, but makes a choice not to use it.
However, in the sense that Sandor set aside his Hound helm and persona, the Hound was then reborn, and has become something much worse when Rorge dons the helm, and even Lem becomes a much darker, colder version of himself. I am very interested with the story GRRM is weaving about the Hound's helm and the power it might contain.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
As most of you know I spend much of my time looking for hidden Targs and i think i found one in Dorne . I believe Rhaella had an affair with Oberyn Martell and their child was born in 274 . His name was Jaehaerys and he was reported to have died later that year . However , i believe that infant was born with a dark streak of hair which was a clear sign that she had cheated on Aerys . Fearing for the child's life and her own , Rhaella confides in her close friend, The Princess of Dorne , and the baby is smuggled to Dorne for his protection . That child grows up as Gerold Dayne . I believe Rhaegar himself brought his baby brother to Starfall in 274 and returned to KL after stopping in the Stormlands at Lord Connington's Castle . The timeline matches for Oberyn being around to be his father as he fought his duel with Lord Yronwood in 274 when he was 16 . This is why Doran calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne . I will provide several quotes to back up my theory and support its viability . Any takers out there ? Could this be part of Doran's master plan in your opinion ? If Oberyn is his father , this could explain why Oberyn never kills him as Daemon wonders . Perhaps this is when Rhaegar met Arthur Dayne and became best buddies ? We know Rhaegar was in Dorne around this time according to Jon Connington .