This is a really good read. My personal fav bit is when it suggests that Littlefinger was the one that told Brandon that Lyanna had "gone off" with Rhaegar. I'm so on board with this. I had the same thought myself a few months ago, the poetic elegance is too much for me to resist, icymi, that's kinda my thing The elegance of a theory will almost always trounce "facts" or "textual evidence". I think that only when you take a step back and remember that this all came out of one dude's mind it becomes easier to see the big picture, story-wise. So to return to LF as the dude who basically started Robert's Rebellion, it's a hanging curve ball, belt high. Swing away Georgie, swing away.
A little bird directed me here. Love that this made it outside of Reddit, really interested to hear your guys' thoughts. Please don't hold back, I'm much more interested in the discussion than being right on everything.
Welcome, welcome! And on the bolded, amen!
Arthur and Lyanna is interesting indeed, I've actually never seen that before. I've always thought Jon would wield Dawn in the end, so being eligible for the Sword of the Morning title would be a bonus in that regard.
Amen on Jon's getting Dawn. As others have pointed out, there are other ways he could get it, theoretically. But, so far in the novels, only a worthy Dayne can wield it. So, being a Dayne would be pretty helpful.
Do we think Arthur lives/survived ToJ here?
HA! I'm not sure we have a consensus on anything here. I personally really doubt Arthur survived, much as I'd kinda like it. Ned's regret over Arthur is clear enough for Bran to see. So, really seems like Arthur is dead.
Back for more when I've had time to read properly.
I even buy the Ashara go between to send messages to would be conspirators scenario.It makes sense in that setting if Rhaegar was planning something against his father,and he was being watched he would need someway to communicate.Beatutiful woman dancing with alot of dudes yeah.Your input about the tourney being rigged so Rhaegar could win,was spot on.Alot of us believed that was the case,but i loved your highlighting of the Selmy better Knight V better angle.This coincides well with what he told Dany about Rhaegar being an able fighter.He throwing it so Rhaegar could win in the end a certainty to me.
YUP! Martin takes the time to tell us basically who she danced with, like he takes time to tell us who the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated--and those three have turned out to be potentially significant.
So, Ashara as political operative--that works.
Even fits with our other "conspiratorial trio" in the books--Stannis and Mel and Selyse. Three involved in taking a kingdom and fulfilling a prophecy.
I always thought it was Selmy Ashara danced with but you are right it could have been her brother or another KG's member for all we know.Same with the black brother,he could have been anyone GRRM decides to make relevant later on or not.
Given that Martin keeps bringing Ashara up, I'm thinking it will definitely be relevant.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Can I say that I just absolutely love the idea that Lyanna was in the Vale! I'm not sure how I've never considered this before. It opens up so many possibilities. Plus it is definitely poetic. I've thought for a while now that Tyrion's abduction by Cat was a parallel to Lyanna's abduction. Tyrion was in the North, trying to go South, but was taken east, the opposite direction of home. If Lyanna was in the East, trying to go west, but was actually taken South away from her family, it's just like turning the scenario on its side...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
A little bird directed me here. Love that this made it outside of Reddit, really interested to hear your guys' thoughts. Please don't hold back, I'm much more interested in the discussion than being right on everything.
Arthur and Lyanna is interesting indeed, I've actually never seen that before. I've always thought Jon would wield Dawn in the end, so being eligible for the Sword of the Morning title would be a bonus in that regard.
Do we think Arthur lives/survived ToJ here?
Welcome to the forum! Smart folks like yourself who think outside the box will definitely find a warm welcome here. I think I speak for all of us when I say the discussion is far more fulfilling than the results of the guessing game itself.
I agree that Jon is one of the best candidates to be a Sword of the Morning-type figure, though we may end up having more than just one character fulfill that role in this story. Jaime's story of how Arthur Dayne defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood by winning the love and respect of the local smallfolk is a great parallel to what Jon has done for the Free Folk, and I think it would be tremendously satisfying if our beloved hero of a bastard turned out to be the son and worthy successor of the greatest knight of our generation. Also, based on the excellent character analyses in the parentage section of this forum, I am convinced that Rhaegar is far from Lyanna's "type." (Though your argument that Lyanna was running a honeypot operation is quite plausible as well.) I know this speculation is pretty wild, but from these analyses, it seems that Arthur Dayne has the right combination of honorable and swashbuckling natures to be compatible with someone like Lyanna.
When it comes to Arthur's survival, I desperately want to believe, but haven't seen a really convincing case for it yet...
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Post by kinglittlefinger on Aug 22, 2016 5:46:16 GMT
Man, I'm completely blown away at some of the posts I've read here that were entirely unknown to me beforehand. I'm pretty much convinced that Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents, and I think there's a better than average chance they are Allyria's parents as well, and that Rhaegar was the man that "dishonored" her at Harrenhal. I'm also open to the fact that Elia was on board and that Ashara could've been a "surrogate" mother for Aegon since Rhaenys's birth put her on bedrest for 6 months. This would make Ashara the dark-haired woman holding Aegon in Dany's HotU vision, and would explain why he looks straight at Dany and says there must be one more, essentially referring to her being the third head of the dragon born of Rhaegar and Ashara.
My mind has been completely blown tonight. I only wish I had read all this before writing Part IV, this would've made a hell of a conclusion! Assuming it hasn't been pieced together like that already somewhere on these boards, which wouldn't surprise me. And the Tower of Joy not actually being where Lyanna was, like holy shit!
Post by kinglittlefinger on Aug 22, 2016 6:39:41 GMT
Except Aegon was born a couple months after the tourney, so Allyria couldn't have been conceived at the tourney. But we have no idea of Allyria's age either, so I guess it's still possible for R + A = A + A + D.
My hype was at defcon 5 there for a second though.
This is a really good read. My personal fav bit is when it suggests that Littlefinger was the one that told Brandon that Lyanna had "gone off" with Rhaegar. I'm so on board with this. I had the same thought myself a few months ago, the poetic elegance is too much for me to resist, icymi, that's kinda my thing The elegance of a theory will almost always trounce "facts" or "textual evidence". I think that only when you take a step back and remember that this all came out of one dude's mind it becomes easier to see the big picture, story-wise. So to return to LF as the dude who basically started Robert's Rebellion, it's a hanging curve ball, belt high. Swing away Georgie, swing away.
Its and interesting notion on Baelish being the one to spread the tale to Brandon. Much like Joffrey's notion of killing Ned it could be something that Baelish was behind but I don't think we will ever get proof. I mean the guy was still half dead.
This reminded me of something from the timeline that always through me off. Ned married Cat on the same day that Brandon was supposed to. Yet Brandon is at Riverrun just prior to the wedding and is going to meet his father who is also on the way for the wedding which presumably shouldn't be that far off.
Then Brandon charges off to KL gets arrested. Letters get sent to Rickard to answer for his son. Rickard comes to KL. They all die sans Ethan. Letters get sent to the Eyrie. Arryn calls his banners. Ned leaves the Vale goes North, calls the banners. Raises the banners and then comes South and marries Cat all before the Battle of the Bells. Raises a big red flag to me. Someone is wrong about something.
There is a really good timeline on the Rebellion here on the forum but I can't remember where it is.
Man, I'm completely blown away at some of the posts I've read here that were entirely unknown to me beforehand. I'm pretty much convinced that Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents, and I think there's a better than average chance they are Allyria's parents as well, and that Rhaegar was the man that "dishonored" her at Harrenhal. I'm also open to the fact that Elia was on board and that Ashara could've been a "surrogate" mother for Aegon since Rhaenys's birth put her on bedrest for 6 months. This would make Ashara the dark-haired woman holding Aegon in Dany's HotU vision, and would explain why he looks straight at Dany and says there must be one more, essentially referring to her being the third head of the dragon born of Rhaegar and Ashara.
My mind has been completely blown tonight. I only wish I had read all this before writing Part IV, this would've made a hell of a conclusion! Assuming it hasn't been pieced together like that already somewhere on these boards, which wouldn't surprise me. And the Tower of Joy not actually being where Lyanna was, like holy shit!
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Martin confirmed in an SSM that the HotU vision was Rheagar and Elia Martell.
I think that Barristan seeing Ashara's eyes in Dany is a red herring.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Can I say that I just absolutely love the idea that Lyanna was in the Vale! I'm not sure how I've never considered this before. It opens up so many possibilities. Plus it is definitely poetic. I've thought for a while now that Tyrion's abduction by Cat was a parallel to Lyanna's abduction. Tyrion was in the North, trying to go South, but was taken east, the opposite direction of home. If Lyanna was in the East, trying to go west, but was actually taken South away from her family, it's just like turning the scenario on its side...
True--but it makes the "disappearing from the Riverlands" story really odd. . . but are you assuming she was going to the Riverrun wedding from the Eyrie?
Man, I'm completely blown away at some of the posts I've read here that were entirely unknown to me beforehand. I'm pretty much convinced that Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents, and I think there's a better than average chance they are Allyria's parents as well, and that Rhaegar was the man that "dishonored" her at Harrenhal.
Yes--a lot of things make more sense if Dany is Rhaegar and Ashara's kid. Have you seen markg171 analysis of how Dany's backstory is a mess? thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany
I'm also open to the fact that Elia was on board and that Ashara could've been a "surrogate" mother for Aegon since Rhaenys's birth put her on bedrest for 6 months.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Martin confirmed in an SSM that the HotU vision was Rheagar and Elia Martell.
Yes--Elia is very much the mother of the first two kids.
But I could see her "agreeing'" to Ashara as surrogate--Martin has also said in SSM that Elia and Rhaegar's relationship was "complicated." It might have been "easier" for her to go along with Rhaegar's having his third child with someone Elia at least knew and trusted somewhat.
Though that would probably also have been rather painful for Elia.
Except Aegon was born a couple months after the tourney, so Allyria couldn't have been conceived at the tourney. But we have no idea of Allyria's age either, so I guess it's still possible for R + A = A + A + D.
My hype was at defcon 5 there for a second though.
HA! Defcon Hype is half the fun!
Illyria has to be at least in her mid to late teens given her now multi-year betrothal to Beric and the fact that she's older than Edric Dayne. So, she could be Rhaegar and Ashara's too, at least theoretically.
But I'm thinking that if Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents, that 'relationship" started with his wanting a third child after Aegon's birth. It would fit with that vision.
I think that Barristan seeing Ashara's eyes in Dany is a red herring.
Maybe--but he brought that up out of literally nothing. Apropos of nothing. No need to bring up Ashara in that "thought monologue" of Barristan's unless it matter.
Ashara and/or her suicide show up in every single book. She matters somehow. If she's Dany's mother--that would matter. A lot.
But it's obviously not the only possible answer.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes--a lot of things make more sense if Dany is Rhaegar and Ashara's kid. Have you seen markg171 analysis of how Dany's backstory is a mess?
Yeah that was what got the hype train in motion last night, stumbling on that thread.
I've got to wade through the ALJ stuff tonight, I just don't see much textual evidence for it other than the fact I've always had the hunch that Jon would wield Dawn and lead the realm through the Long Night, thus being a literal Sword of the Morning, and being a Dayne would make that all the better. There's just the logistical issue of getting him all the way down to Starfall.
If it weren't for the (I think?) SSM that confirms Dawn is at Starfall, I would be a huge proponent of Dawn being in Lyanna's crypt, and Jon being the one to find it there, thus being a kind of sword in the stone allusion.
I've got to wade through the ALJ stuff tonight, I just don't see much textual evidence for it other than the fact I've always had the hunch that Jon would wield Dawn and lead the realm through the Long Night, thus being a literal Sword of the Morning, and being a Dayne would make that all the better. There's just the logistical issue of getting him all the way down to Starfall.
1. If "wading" is a chore, only read what you enjoy. Forming should be fun, not slog-oriented.
That quote really makes it sound like another Sword of the Morning is rising. And only Jon has had any strong associations with Dawn and the Sword of the Morning.
And he seems likely to "arise" soon--in more ways than one.
Now, I will stop derailing your argument and come back when I've had time to read it all.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes--a lot of things make more sense if Dany is Rhaegar and Ashara's kid. Have you seen markg171 analysis of how Dany's backstory is a mess?
Yeah that was what got the hype train in motion last night, stumbling on that thread.
I've got to wade through the ALJ stuff tonight, I just don't see much textual evidence for it other than the fact I've always had the hunch that Jon would wield Dawn and lead the realm through the Long Night, thus being a literal Sword of the Morning, and being a Dayne would make that all the better. There's just the logistical issue of getting him all the way down to Starfall.
If it weren't for the (I think?) SSM that confirms Dawn is at Starfall, I would be a huge proponent of Dawn being in Lyanna's crypt, and Jon being the one to find it there, thus being a kind of sword in the stone allusion.
I agree; there isn't much in the way of explicit textual support for ALJ, especially when compared to RLJ. It requires quite a bit of digging into GRRM's characterizations and how they factor into individual motives and decisions. However, once the human element (so often lacking in fantastical mysteries) is taken into account, I believe the logistical argument for Arthur as Lyanna's baby daddy holds up just well enough to be worth considering as an equal possibility with Rhaegar.
Disclaimer: This is the heavily biased opinion of a huge Arthur Dayne fan. Not to mention someone who thinks the Targaryens as a whole have been more trouble than they're worth, and it's time to give someone else a shot at bringing peace to Westeros.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
I agree; there isn't much in the way of explicit textual support for ALJ, especially when compared to RLJ. It requires quite a bit of digging into GRRM's characterizations and how they factor into individual motives and decisions. However, once the human element (so often lacking in fantastical mysteries) is taken into account, I believe the logistical argument for Arthur as Lyanna's baby daddy holds up just well enough to be worth considering as an equal possibility with Rhaegar.
Disclaimer: This is the heavily biased opinion of a huge Arthur Dayne fan. Not to mention someone who thinks the Targaryens as a whole have been more trouble than they're worth, and it's time to give someone else a shot at bringing peace to Westeros.
Same here RE: biased Arthur Dayne fan and Targaryen trouble.
If you think about it, Arthur is just as likely to be the father timeline/location-wise because he's in the same places as Rhaegar during this entire time. The only thing you don't have with ALJ is the crowning, which is why everyone thinks Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, which is a gross oversimplification of a character like Rhaegar, and the blue flower/wall of ice in Dany's vision, which RLJ loves to quote, but IMO really only associates Jon with Lyanna, not necessarily with Rhaegar.
(side notes: where in the HELL did they find winter roses around Harrenhal for the crown if it was a spontaneous decision? And was Lyanna associated with the winter rose before Harrenhal or only thereafter? Would the Bael symbolism have been caught by those in attendance if Jon, a northerner, wasn't even aware of it until Ygritte told him the story? So many questions there with the crowning at Harrenhal...)
Two more parts on the way but most of the theory is here. I need to read it again but very interesting and shows the various groups/conspiracies that were happening at Harrenhal.
This definitely sounds up my alley kinglittlefinger. I'll dig in asap. Is it posted here?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Man, I'm completely blown away at some of the posts I've read here that were entirely unknown to me beforehand. I'm pretty much convinced that Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents, and I think there's a better than average chance they are Allyria's parents as well, and that Rhaegar was the man that "dishonored" her at Harrenhal. I'm also open to the fact that Elia was on board and that Ashara could've been a "surrogate" mother for Aegon since Rhaenys's birth put her on bedrest for 6 months. This would make Ashara the dark-haired woman holding Aegon in Dany's HotU vision, and would explain why he looks straight at Dany and says there must be one more, essentially referring to her being the third head of the dragon born of Rhaegar and Ashara.
My mind has been completely blown tonight. I only wish I had read all this before writing Part IV, this would've made a hell of a conclusion! Assuming it hasn't been pieced together like that already somewhere on these boards, which wouldn't surprise me. And the Tower of Joy not actually being where Lyanna was, like holy shit!
Oh yes... there be many and more a hole in the notion that Lyanna was ever even at the tower long fallen, let alone that she gave birth there...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
This definitely sounds up my alley kinglittlefinger. I'll dig in asap. Is it posted here?
Only on Reddit for now, mainly for formatting/length reasons. I may tweak it some and re-post it here at some point after reading some of the theories here. I think I can intersect a lot of it with ideas from here, especially regarding Tywin and some Tower of Joy stuff. I think it would really round it all out if/when I get a chance and a new bout of inspiration.