arrysfleas , there's a lot to get through here, but wow. Amazing stuff!
thanks! and i am glad you are finally getting there! looking forward to some serious...and not so serious comments
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Regarding towers, I was reminded of This Tower of Ashes by GRRM. Have you read it?
i have now. There is not a lot said about the tower itself save that it likely comes from sentient beings - possibly long gone. (There is lots about lost love and dream-spider venom!).
When thinking about the various ancient structures of Westeros: Pyke, Winterfell, Storm's End, the Hightower base, the Nightfort, Standfast, they are all quite different from each other, each unique in its own way. As if they were not built by the same people at all. Only Winterfell and Standfast have anything remotely common (gargoyles, grotesques). Much mystery still to resolve.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Regarding towers, I was reminded of This Tower of Ashes by GRRM. Have you read it?
i have now. There is not a lot said about the tower itself save that it likely comes from sentient beings - possibly long gone. (There is lots about lost love and dream-spider venom!).
When thinking about the various ancient structures of Westeros: Pyke, Winterfell, Storm's End, the Hightower base, the Nightfort, Standfast, they are all quite different from each other, each unique in its own way. As if they were not built by the same people at all. Only Winterfell and Standfast have anything remotely common (gargoyles, grotesques). Much mystery still to resolve.
Seems like the blocks or mortar were made of obsidian right? Mayhaps I'm mistaken tho. Haven't read it in a while.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Seems like the blocks or mortar were made of obsidian right? Mayhaps I'm mistaken tho. Haven't read it in a while.
My tower is built of bricks, small soot-gray bricks mortared together with a shiny black substance that looks strangely like obsidian to my untrained eye, though it clearly cannot be obsidian.
I do not think it was built by men, for one. It clearly predates Port Jamison, and I often suspect it predates human spaceflight. The bricks (which are curiously small, less than a quarter the size of normal bricks) are tired and weathered and old, and they crumble visibly beneath my feet. Dust is everywhere and I know its source, for more than once I have pried loose a brick from the parapet on the roof and crushed it idly to fine dark powder in my naked fist. When the salt wind blows from the east, the tower flies a plume of ashes.
A spiral stair, built of the same ancient brick as the rest, is part of the wall; around and around it circles, like the threading on a screw, before it reaches roof level. Squirrel, who is quite small as cats go, finds the stairs easy climbing, but for human feet they are narrow and awkward.
Each night I return from the cool forests, my arrows black with the caked blood of the dream-spiders
We were standing near one side of a small clearing, below a shiny black ebonfire, but even the flames of its red-veined wood seemed cool in the faint blue light
“Feel the dust,” I told him. I was not going to stoop this time. “And when you’re back at the tower, crush one of my bricks and feel that. It’s the same thing, a sort of powdery ash.” I made an expansive gesture. “I’d guess there was a city here once, but now it’s all crumbled into dust. Maybe my tower was an outpost of the people who built it, you see?”
The soot-grey bricks crumble into some sort of powdery ash. The ebonfire tree looks shiny black; perhaps some connection.
I think the mortar between the crumbling bricks is dream spider venom. There is some imagery between dreams and dust but not sure how it hangs together: our dreams turn into dust? Somehow it has to fit in the context of the lost-love story.
Another ridlle to add to the collection!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
When thinking about the various ancient structures of Westeros: Pyke, Winterfell, Storm's End, the Hightower base, the Nightfort, Standfast, they are all quite different from each other, each unique in its own way. As if they were not built by the same people at all.
You're right. They differ not only in location, materials and shape/structure/design, but their builders utilized completely different technologies each time! Storm's End is known for its curtain wall of extremely well-fitted stones; if this was so successful, why not use it in any other castle? If black stone technology was available (as it clearly was to whoever built the Hightower base), why bother fitting together all those rocks at all? The black stone seems superior to all other materials, both in terms of hardness/resistance to attacks and in terms of long term stability (i.e. the Valyrian Roads are still perfect after thousands of years). Why would any builder who had access to it use anything else? Winterfell has a double wall which allows it to be defended with just 50 men. Why do we see NO other castles with this design (and especially not the ones in question)? The arched stone bridges make Pyke unique, and I agree they make me think of Essos. And then there is the Nightfort... which only has a wall on one side and a well with a shortcut to the other side.
Yes, I definitely agree. These castles were not built by the same society, and it almost seems like the various builders who designed them had either never traveled the world and seen the other castles (suggesting societies that were cut off from each other), or they simply had access to very different technologies and materials and therefore couldn't copy each other's designs.
So where does that leave us? Different ancient advanced societies in different areas of Westeros? Or just different magical individuals intervening in early First Men cultures in different parts of the world during the Age of Heroes (i.e. Bran the Builder in the North, Garth Greenhand in the Reach, the Grey King for the Ironborn)? I think I prefer the second scenario, since it would help explain the decline in knowledge/technology once these special individuals had passed away. It also explains why not more major artifacts are found around westeros (unlike Essos which is littered with ancient ruins) : there were never whole societies who could routinely build structures such as these, but rather they were each helped with one or a few structures by one special individual (and by special individual what I mean is greenseer ).
Only Winterfell and Standfast have anything remotely common (gargoyles, grotesques). Much mystery still to resolve.
Dragonstone also has gargoyles. Which makes this even weirder, doesn't it? Dragonstone and Winterfell are also both located in areas with volcanic activity/underground heat.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Dragonstone also has gargoyles. Which makes this even weirder, doesn't it? Dragonstone and Winterfell are also both located in areas with volcanic activity/underground heat.
Fort Hold inspired? too lazy to check the dates...
Dragonstone also has gargoyles. Which makes this even weirder, doesn't it? Dragonstone and Winterfell are also both located in areas with volcanic activity/underground heat.
yes, but i think we are told that Dragonstone in a 'recent' construction of the Targaryiens. It is pre-Doom but that does not necessarily make it 8000+ years old.
Certainly Winterfell has the dragonlords flavour and Standfast must have been an ancient Essosi outpost, just like Pyke. My feeling on this is that dragonlords and others of the GED had holds all around the coasts of Westeros, pre 'FM'. Winterfell may never have been on the coast, but the presence of volcanic activity would have attracted dragon breeders who obviously need plenty of 'warmth' for their hatching purposes.
Is that the Fort Hold in the Pern fantasy? you need to elaborate ( i have nor read these books that far!)
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
yes, but i think we are told that Dragonstone in a 'recent' construction of the Targaryiens. It is pre-Doom but that does not necessarily make it 8000+ years old.
I know that's what we're told, but there is also evidence against this. For one, the Targaryens don't build ANY "Valyrian" type structures once they are on the mainland. None. Not even a little chair or anything. All they can do is fuse some swords together into the IT, which nobody has ever claimed was artistic or fancy, or used any technology except bare dragon flame. In other words, I see no reason to believe that House Targaryen was among those Valyrian families who knew how to fuse stone to make fancy structures (or any structures at all. They didn't even build a single valyrian road, anywhere). King's Landing is in no way a "special" castle in terms of technology or materials.
Of course the Targaryens could have paid another family to build their castle on DS. However, such elaborate types of castles are extremely rare even in Valyrian "free" cities. In fact, where do we see fancy fused stone at all? We are told they had it in Valyria, but from what we've seen of the rest of the world (especially Essos, which was ruled by Valyria for thousands of years) we don't really see much typical Valyrian architecture. Funny that they would invest so much effort into DS, which was just an outpost for one family, when they didn't bother building such structures in the free cities.
Lastly, and this is probably the strongest argument for my case, Davos specifically notices how worn down the gargoyles are when he returns to DS after the Blackwater Battle (early ASOS). They are barely recognizable, in fact. He blames it on the action of the waves and salt water, but we know the fused stone is extremely strong. Would a few hundred years really eat away the gargoyles' features?
So in summary, I personally believe that DS is much older than the people of Westeros think it is, and that it was not built by the Targaryens. But I realize that still doesn't necessarily place it in the truly ancient category with these other castles...
My feeling on this is that dragonlords and others of the GED had holds all around the coasts of Westeros, pre 'FM'.
I agree, this seems likely.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
). 
