Su5, might want to wander over to the RLJ thread at the W to pick up some objections to your theory and work on rebuttals to them for future discussion. Apparently critique is going to take place over there instead of here in the actual thread for it.
Su5, might want to wander over to the RLJ thread at the W to pick up some objections to your theory and work on rebuttals to them for future discussion. Apparently critique is going to take place over there instead of here in the actual thread for it.
LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Su5, might want to wander over to the RLJ thread at the W to pick up some objections to your theory and work on rebuttals to them for future discussion. Apparently critique is going to take place over there instead of here in the actualthread for it.
I read that this morning and laughed a little. I guess some of them didn't want to join in the debate? Not sure why not. Kingmonkey and Sly Wren are here, and they're doing just fine.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
After reading, I wouldn't characterize that as a critique and if I were Super I'd stick to Kingmonkey and Sly when who seem to get what a critique is.And putting words on Kingmonkey"s mouth by implying he said Super"s essay was weak is the kind of BS i'm speaking of and honestly it explains quite a bit.
Not one of these essays, not one will absent of flaws a credible person would accept that instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
Super that parallel between the kings guard and Penty was a sweet find and bolster's BC's ronin claim as being very plausible.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
After reading, I wouldn't characterize that as a critique and if I were Super I'd stick to Kingmonkey and Sly when who seem to get what a critique is.And putting words on Kingmonkey"s mouth by implying he said Super"s essay was weak is the kind of BS i'm speaking of and honestly it explains quite a bit.
Not one of these essays, not one will absent of flaws a credible person would accept that instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
Super that parallel between the kings guard and Penty was a sweet find and bolster's BC's ronin claim as being very plausible.
Excuse the typos on this danm phone again, out in the middle of nowhere with the worst glare ever.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
And putting words on Kingmonkey"s mouth by implying he said Super"s essay was weak is the kind of BS i'm speaking of and honestly it explains quite a bit.
Is that a new development? I didn't feel like KM called it weak, either. He was just commenting on a section of the essay, but I don't remember right now what.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
And putting words on Kingmonkey"s mouth by implying he said Super"s essay was weak is the kind of BS i'm speaking of and honestly it explains quite a bit.
Is that a new development? I didn't feel like KM called it weak, either. He was just commenting on a section of the essay, but I don't remember right now what.
Im sorry calling it from my phone J Star said it was weak in "his" opinion and UL said he's not Surprised it was weak.....As I said when peoples mines are made up, its made up.I'm not buying Arthur as Jon's daddy but that essay pretty much knocked down the Kingsguard's being there " only" because a legit Jon was there.
Plus that angle on honor with respect of love how it was put further enlightened some aspects of my essay.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
How did Ned know Jon wouldn't grow up looking like a Targ risking Robert's wrath if anyone got suspicious?
Maybe it was already obvious? Jon would have been several months old before he had to make a firm decision, so he would already be able to see his hair colour and eye colour. He could probably already see more Lyanna in him than his father.
That is possible--don't know how old Jon was when he took Jon north.
But I'm wondering if the whole issue of the lie might be simpler--Lyanna was feverish and afraid--not necessarily a moment for high logic. She's dying and begs Ned to hide Jon's identity. Maybe her fears are warranted. Maybe not. But, given how that secret haunts Ned, seems like it doesn't have to be reasonable. Just a secret.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I use this example for possible interpretation of the KG:
This is spectacular. Works really well with Arthur--who also parallels with Arys Oakheart's death-by-combat.
But this parallel works for whatever is going on at the tower. And why the KG only mention Aerys. Not a living king.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Well, Rhaegar seems not to be a very sensual or hedonistic person, like say, Robert Baratheon. He is also not at all brutish. The rape angle seems, frankly, impossible, and indeed like a rumor that got cooked up somewhere along the way, either by someone with an agenda, or by the Westerosi equivalent of the game telephone, where facts become more and more distorted as they pass through each person that recounts the tale.
The point is, people across the realm seemed to THINK Lyanna and Rhaegar were involved. And they certainly were. However it is logical to point out that them being in love and running off together, and him kidnapping her and raping her are not the only possible explanations for this widespread belief. It is an understandable mistake, Rhaegar DID crown her at Harrenhal over his wife. “All the smiles died.” It's hard to interpret it any other way, and yet, there ARE logically other possible explanations. The obvious one being that someone CLOSE to Rhaegar was carrying on with Lyanna, rather than that it was the Dragon Prince himself doing the deed.
Agree that "Rhaegar=brute" doesn't work with given info. Coming up with a "reasonable" scenario for R and L running off or anything else together is a task that seems to have eluded everyone--including me.
But if Arthur and Lyanna were getting googly-eyed at Harrenhal--why on earth was Rhaegar missing, too? Helping out (details to be determined)? Trying to talk Arthur to come back to KL? Scouring books for a way to get Arthur out of his KG oath so he could marry Lyanna?
This gap is no more fatal to ALJ than all the gaps are to RLJ--but it is a big gap. Missing crown prince who lets the whole realm believe he ran off with Lyanna. Not sure how much power Rhaegar had over what people heard, let alone thought. But it is very strange. Easier to deal with if R actually "ran off" with L (reason to be determined). Unless someone is seeing something I'm not (always possible).
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Well, Rhaegar seems not to be a very sensual or hedonistic person, like say, Robert Baratheon. He is also not at all brutish. The rape angle seems, frankly, impossible, and indeed like a rumor that got cooked up somewhere along the way, either by someone with an agenda, or by the Westerosi equivalent of the game telephone, where facts become more and more distorted as they pass through each person that recounts the tale.
The point is, people across the realm seemed to THINK Lyanna and Rhaegar were involved. And they certainly were. However it is logical to point out that them being in love and running off together, and him kidnapping her and raping her are not the only possible explanations for this widespread belief. It is an understandable mistake, Rhaegar DID crown her at Harrenhal over his wife. “All the smiles died.” It's hard to interpret it any other way, and yet, there ARE logically other possible explanations. The obvious one being that someone CLOSE to Rhaegar was carrying on with Lyanna, rather than that it was the Dragon Prince himself doing the deed.
Agree that "Rhaegar=brute" doesn't work with given info. Coming up with a "reasonable" scenario for R and L running off or anything else together is a task that seems to have alluded everyone--including me.
But if Arthur and Lyanna were getting googly-eyed at Harrenhal--why on earth was Rhaegar missing, too? Helping out (details to be determined)? Trying to talk Arthur to come back to KL? Scouring books for a way to get Arthur out of his KG oath so he could marry Lyanna?
This gap is no more fatal to ALJ than all the gaps are to RLJ--but it is a big gap. Missing crown prince who lets the whole realm believe he ran off with Lyanna. Not sure how much power Rhaegar had over what people heard, let alone thought. But it is very strange. Easier to deal with if R actually "ran off" with L (reason to be determined). Unless someone is seeing something I'm not (always possible).
I have a different take on this and its something i said before.Let's look at some quotes and the last conversation Rhaegar had:
“Tell me, then - when he touched a man on the shoulder with his sword, what did he say? ‘Go forth and kill the weak’? Or ‘Go forth and defend them’? At the Trident, those brave men Viserys spoke of who died beneath our dragon banners - did they give their lives because they believed in Rhaegar’s cause, or because they had been bought and paid for?” Dany turned to Mormont, crossed her arms, and waited for an answer.”
“My queen,” the big man said slowly, “all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”
“Stay here my Royal Sire is more afraid of your father than our cousin Robert.”
"When this battle is done, I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago but... Well it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when we return."
My first question is Rhaegar's cause,what did people think it was when they fought?
Secondly,and someone correct me if i'm wrong.From Rhaegar's quote about his cousin Robert. Does anyone get from this dude that he kidnapped anyone, farless even knew that a kidnapping had taken place?You supposedly just kidnapped your cousin's woman and his mind is on a political angle that he could possibly salvage IF HE KIDNAPPED Lyanna. There's no fixing this,not by HIM.
I stake a big toe on this statement. The idea that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna was something cooked up to get Bandon to act rash and this idea was spread after the Rebellion was over to make all the crap palatable after. Who would think about babies getting their heads smashed in and mothers getting raped and cleaved in two when there are songs about a man fighting a war for the woman he loved?
Next to nobody knew Lyanna was missing and i stake my other big toe that Rhaegar had no clue either. Poor sap was just....a Wicker man( i'll explain that in essay).
This is spectacular. Works really well with Arthur--who also parallels with Arys Oakheart's death-by-combat.
If we're looking for evidence that the KG might have been trying to pull a Cortnay Penrose and find a way to resign as KG with their honour intact (AKA fight to the end even though they know they can't win)
In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist. They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind.
We've got a 7 on 3 fight which is bad odds as it is for even the greatest swordsmen which at least Arthur is. But not only are the KG outnumbered, they're on foot while Ned's party is mounted. And not only are they outnumbered, and not mounted like their opponents, they're out in the open where Ned's horses are even more of an advantage as Ned and his men can simply ride them down out in the open. And not only are they outnumbered, out horsed, and out in the open, they've seemingly lost their wits as
They found the Golden Company beside the river as the sun was lowering in the west. It was a camp that even Arthur Dayne might have approved of—compact, orderly, defensible. A deep ditch had been dug around it, with sharpened stakes inside. The tents stood in rows, with broad avenues between them. The latrines had been placed beside the river, so the current would wash away the wastes. The horse lines were to the north, and beyond them, two dozen elephants grazed beside the water, pulling up reeds with their trunks.
Arthur Dayne always made sure he kept his defences in order, yet here he is not using this tower while he's outnumbered and on foot facing mounted men. AKA this doesn't make sense.
Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone.
Then we have Oswell Whent greet Ned's party with open steel. And how would Ned interpret this? Well thankfully he's answered that question many times
And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel. Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers … but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."
Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and Hallis Mollen stood behind him. A dozen guardsmen lined the grey stone walls beneath tall narrow windows. In the center of the room the dwarf stood with his servants, and four strangers in the black of the Night's Watch. Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors. "Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword. "Any man of the Night's Watch," the dwarf repeated, "but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?"
"My lord father used to say a man should never draw his sword unless he means to use it."
Greeting Ned with steel is akin to asking for death if he's your liege (and as basically Robert's Hand at the moment Ned is liege to everyone in Westoros), as an explicit denial of guest right and that you are there against their wish and not welcome, and that they mean to use their sword.
AKA greeting Ned with your sword drawn is asking for a fight.
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
Note that Arthur Dayne is the first to start arming himself of all the combatants. The KG and Ned's party are having their parley, and then Arthur dons his helmet. Next thing you know Ned's men have all drawn their swords.
AKA Arthur started the fight by being the first to decide that this parley won't end peacefully when he started to arm himself for battle in front of them.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
Here we have Arthur saying that now things will begin for them, but Ned answers back that no it's over. Ned understands that this battle won't resolve anything for the war as Robert has already won. Either Arthur is incredibly naive and believes that there's still a chance for the Targaryens to somehow rally the realm and reclaim the throne despite Robert having successfully taken the whole realm, or he too knows that the war is over but he's planning to keep fighting until someone kills him.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I was planning to answer to this in detail, but I can't seem to get around doing it. So I'll do it briefly, at least: I like the idea, the black/white, Blackfyre/Robert's rebellion and other parallels are nice and thought-provoking. However there's one big thing I just can't get over, and that's the complete reversal of roles between Arthur and Rhaegar.
If I understand correctly what you're saying, the Crown Prince sacrificed his honour, reputation, and ultimately his life and his whole family to protect his bodyguard's ... what? reputation? And also, on Arthur's part, seems to me that this would go way beyond breaking a vow of celibacy and would be irresponsible, dishonourable and cowardly - the opposite of everything he's said to be. Not to mention that, as you point out, we already have one Dornish KG who somehow managed to acquire a paramour without harming his reputation, let alone destroying the royal family he was sworn to protect. Not only that, but two other KG (including their Lord Commander who's blindly loyal to Aerys) apparently played along. During the whole year (or so) of war and destruction, no-one made an effort to clear up the misunderstanding???
Can't really see Ned admiring him if this was the case either, TBH.
I do wish there was a way around this, an A+L theory that doesn't destroy A's character...
Agree that "Rhaegar=brute" doesn't work with given info. Coming up with a "reasonable" scenario for R and L running off or anything else together is a task that seems to have alluded everyone--including me.
But if Arthur and Lyanna were getting googly-eyed at Harrenhal--why on earth was Rhaegar missing, too? Helping out (details to be determined)? Trying to talk Arthur to come back to KL? Scouring books for a way to get Arthur out of his KG oath so he could marry Lyanna?
This gap is no more fatal to ALJ than all the gaps are to RLJ--but it is a big gap. Missing crown prince who lets the whole realm believe he ran off with Lyanna. Not sure how much power Rhaegar had over what people heard, let alone thought. But it is very strange. Easier to deal with if R actually "ran off" with L (reason to be determined). Unless someone is seeing something I'm not (always possible).
I have a different take on this and its something i said before.Let's look at some quotes and the last conversation Rhaegar had:
“Tell me, then - when he touched a man on the shoulder with his sword, what did he say? ‘Go forth and kill the weak’? Or ‘Go forth and defend them’? At the Trident, those brave men Viserys spoke of who died beneath our dragon banners - did they give their lives because they believed in Rhaegar’s cause, or because they had been bought and paid for?” Dany turned to Mormont, crossed her arms, and waited for an answer.”
“My queen,” the big man said slowly, “all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”
“Stay here my Royal Sire is more afraid of your father than our cousin Robert.”
"When this battle is done, I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago but... Well it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when we return."
My first question is Rhaegar's cause,what did people think it was when they fought?
Secondly,and someone correct me if i'm wrong.From Rhaegar's quote about his cousin Robert. Does anyone get from this dude that he kidnapped anyone, farless even knew that a kidnapping had taken place?You supposedly just kidnapped your cousin's woman and his mind is on a political angle that he could possibly salvage IF HE KIDNAPPED Lyanna. There's no fixing this,not by HIM.
I stake a big toe on this statement. The idea that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna was something cooked up to get Bandon to act rash and this idea was spread after the Rebellion was over to make all the crap palatable after. Who would think about babies getting their heads smashed in and mothers getting raped and cleaved in two when there are songs about a man fighting a war for the woman he loved?
Next to nobody knew Lyanna was missing and i stake my other big toe that Rhaegar had no clue either. Poor sap was just....a Wicker man( i'll explain that in essay).
I don't doubt that the Rebellion could have been filled with misinformation. And that Aerys or others could very well have used Lyanna's disappearance as a way to spread/encourage that misinformation. Littlefinger tries a more crude version re: Shireen's parentage.
And that misinformation could also work in R and L ran off together (which is hard to make work with current info) or if Aerys (for some unknown reason) had L kidnapped. Or if Arthur and L ran off together.
My biggest issue is with why Rhaegar has been missing the whole time. Why the common wisdom says he was with Arthur and Whent and took L. But was also missing--with Arthur and Whent missing, too. Can't see anyone has memories of Rhaegar sightings (he was singing at a folk music festival in Essos, etc.). Just seems very odd.
Could they all have "taken" L on Aerys' orders (reasons to be determined/concocted) and then A and L "fall in love?" Or L seduces A for her own purposes (read: escape) like Arianne does to Arys? Maybe--at least then R might be missing with A. Though all of that is rather convoluted.
But if they aren't together--having a hard time concocting a scenario as to why. Ordered away by Aerys because he wants to foment rebellion? Seems mad, even for a mad king. Just talking to the Dornish to raise a host and the whole thing took a lot longer than anticipated so people are making assumptions?
As I said, can't see how this gap is any more fatal to the theory than any of the RLJ gaps. But it is odd.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.