Arthur + Lyanna = Jon

Dornish Neck Tie
Barristan Selmy

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Aug 10, 2016 16:49:08 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Aug 10, 2016 16:49:08 GMT

Aug 10, 2016 16:38:44 GMT Mojo said:

Aug 10, 2016 16:30:25 GMT Dornish Neck Tie said:

Have we considered the possibility that the Targs are not necessarily inherently crazy, but that they have often been visited by "gods," possibly in their dreams, and that these experiences unhinged them a bit, as they would any normal person? Even relatively humane Targaryens such as Baelor the Blessed were known to be obsessive weirdos. After reading Cantuse's essay about Jenny's Song and Mance Rayder, my first thought was that Rhaegar played Jenny's Song so frequently because his dreams were haunted by the Ghost of High Heart and the tragedy at Summerhall. The story of Rhaegar's sudden personality change, as well as Barristan's description of him as dutiful and single-minded, seem to indicate a guy who became a bit unhinged as a result of divine intervention (read: magical trickery).

Wasn't it a little implied this season, too? Isn't Bloodraven a Targ bastard?

I dunno about gods, but I definitely see a correlation with psychic abilities. The Targs may perceive them as gods, but not sure yet if I believe the gods are real in the books yet, and religion is just separate from magic.

But I still think drinking and burning a city down is crazy town, but possibly visions drove them mad, and not a mad streak.

I don't know if Dany is officially loca, but but I still think she has a cruel streak and going antagonist now.

Indeed, the " " around gods was to indicate a healthy skepticism of their authority or legitimacy. I consider myself something of an atheist with regards to the in-story universe. The Wizard of Oz (the character) is probably the closest analogy for the gods we'll see in this saga.

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kinglittlefinger
Jon Connington

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Feb 5, 2017 19:42:40 GMT via mobile SlyWren likes this

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Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 5, 2017 19:42:40 GMT

Random thought that I wanted to throw in this thread because it seems to back it up:

Is Ned returning Dawn after killing Arthur really something worthy of naming a child of your house after? I mean... If Tywin had returned Ice after killing Ned would Robb have been like "oh awesome, I'll name our firstborn and future lord of Winterfell after you." Doesn't make sense at all IMO.

BUT, if Ned had agreed to take the blame for Jon and raise him as his own, thus preserving Arthur's reputation as the pinnacle of knighthood, that's more believeable AND it answers the question (though admittedly not quite as well as with RLJ) of "why would Ned hide Jon and shoulder that blame for his entire life if he wasn't Rhaegar's child?"

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon May 2, 2017 7:31:24 GMT SlyWren and haloid like this

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Post by shymaid on May 2, 2017 7:31:24 GMT

I hadn't tought of A+L before I read this thread. Good work with both pros and cons!

What initially comes to mind is of course Arys O (not the sharpest, but I kinda like him).
So if Arthur is set to guard Lyanna for some reason (not going into various reasons just yet), I can see Lyanna using her womanly powers to manipulate him in order to get away. And Arthur giving in. A stoney Dornishman might be some what more "proned" to such things? An honorable knight is just a man of flesh and blood. Arianne in TWOW preview thinks how Arys made bigger impression on her than she thought; did Lyanna have time to really fall for Arthur? Interesting!

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haloid
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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon May 2, 2017 22:07:54 GMT SlyWren and shymaid like this

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Post by haloid on May 2, 2017 22:07:54 GMT

May 2, 2017 7:31:24 GMT shymaid said:

I hadn't tought of A+L before I read this thread. Good work with both pros and cons!

What initially comes to mind is of course Arys O (not the sharpest, but I kinda like him).
So if Arthur is set to guard Lyanna for some reason (not going into various reasons just yet), I can see Lyanna using her womanly powers to manipulate him in order to get away. And Arthur giving in. A stoney Dornishman might be some what more "proned" to such things? An honorable knight is just a man of flesh and blood. Arianne in TWOW preview thinks how Arys made bigger impression on her than she thought; did Lyanna have time to really fall for Arthur? Interesting!

ALJ theory has become fairly popular over the last couple of years. I saw its popularity really increase after GOT season 6 finale. I think its a pretty strong contender for Jon's parentage. I don't think Lyanna and Arthur eloped and Rhaegar took the fall or anything like that. Maybe Lyanna was responsible for her own disappearance and ended up meeting with Rhaegar and co. and traveling to Dorne. While in Dorne she and Arthur fell in love and/or started a sexual relationship. Also, its possible Rhaegar abducted Lyanna for political reasons and kept her in Dorne. They could have led to an Arthur/Lyanna coupling as well.

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon May 3, 2017 5:18:46 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by shymaid on May 3, 2017 5:18:46 GMT

May 2, 2017 23:22:58 GMT haloid said:

ALJ theory has become fairly popular over the last couple of years. I saw its popularity really increase after GOT season 6 finale.

Oh? All I've seen is "RLJ confirmed, RLJ confirmed!", but I'm very new to this game.

May 2, 2017 23:22:58 GMT haloid said:

I think its a pretty strong contender for Jon's parentage.

May 2, 2017 23:22:58 GMT haloid said:

I don't think Lyanna and Arthur eloped and Rhaegar took the fall or anything like that. Maybe Lyanna was responsible for her own disappearance and ended up meeting with Rhaegar and co. and traveling to Dorne. While in Dorne she and Arthur fell in love and/or started a sexual relationship. Also, its possible Rhaegar abducted Lyanna for political reasons and kept her in Dorne. They could have led to an Arthur/Lyanna coupling as well.

Rereading Got the other day, Ned thinks Gendry is of Robbs age. Lyanna didn't like Roberts whoring, so if he nocked up a tavern wench in the right timeframe and she found out? Could be a motive for her running off. Arya mirrors her and her story, me thinks!

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Aug 22, 2017 0:46:42 GMT whitewolfstark likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Aug 22, 2017 0:46:42 GMT

Aug 21, 2017 19:46:34 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

Random thought that I wanted to throw in this thread because it seems to back it up:

Is Ned returning Dawn after killing Arthur really something worthy of naming a child of your house after? I mean... If Tywin had returned Ice after killing Ned would Robb have been like "oh awesome, I'll name our firstborn and future lord of Winterfell after you." Doesn't make sense at all IMO.

Agreed.

Plus, the OCD part of my brain recently drove me to look at the appendices of the novels.

Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall is the ONLY Martell bannerman listed by name in the Game appendix or the Clash appendix. All other bannermen are just listed by general house, no individuals.

But Edric/Ned himself doesn't appear on page until Storm. So, Martin knew years ahead of time that Edric Dayne was in the story and worth naming that name.

Not "proof," of course. But worth considering. I think.

Aug 21, 2017 19:46:34 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

BUT, if Ned had agreed to take the blame for Jon and raise him as his own, thus preserving Arthur's reputation as the pinnacle of knighthood, that's more believeable AND it answers the question (though admittedly not quite as well as with RLJ) of "why would Ned hide Jon and shoulder that blame for his entire life if he wasn't Rhaegar's child?"

Agreed. Though I think it was likely more about protecting Jon than Arthur's reputation.

Robert would hate any child Lyanna had with anyone other than himself. So, the risk to Lyanna's child via Arthur (let alone the Daynes themselves if they knew and sheltered them) would be just as high as Robert's hatred for Rhaegar and all things tied to Rhaegar.

Really seems like there would be the same risk. At least to me.

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kinglittlefinger
Jon Connington

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Aug 22, 2017 3:25:31 GMT via mobile SlyWren, whitewolfstark, and 2 more like this

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Post by kinglittlefinger on Aug 22, 2017 3:25:31 GMT

Aug 22, 2017 0:46:42 GMT SlyWren said:

Agreed. Though I think it was likely more about protecting Jon than Arthur's reputation.

Robert would hate any child Lyanna had with anyone other than himself. So, the risk to Lyanna's child via Arthur (let alone the Daynes themselves if they knew and sheltered them) would be just as high as Robert's hatred for Rhaegar and all things tied to Rhaegar.

Really seems like there would be the same risk. At least to me.

I've always laughed at the thought that RLJ must be true because "why would Ned hide Jon's identity otherwise if not RLJ"? But you have to first assume RLJ in order to say Ned is hiding anything about Jon at all. If Jon is just Ned's bastard, then Ned has literally told the truth the entire time, which actually makes the most sense as opposed to Ned conjuring up a lie in order to fit a conjured up theory. This is why I go back and forth between NAJ and ALJ.

Edric says Ned broke Ashara's heart and killed Arthur. So why was he named after Ned? I can't think of any reason other than preserving Arthur's honor, returning Dawn, and letting Ashara escape Robert's wrath (with Dany). Any one alone would just offset the others, but all 3 might be worth naming your house's heir after.

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Aug 22, 2017 14:23:00 GMT whitewolfstark, sagenadia, and 2 more like this

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Post by SlyWren on Aug 22, 2017 14:23:00 GMT

Aug 22, 2017 3:25:31 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

I've always laughed at the thought that RLJ must be true because "why would Ned hide Jon's identity otherwise if not RLJ"? But you have to first assume RLJ in order to say Ned is hiding anything about Jon at all. If Jon is just Ned's bastard, then Ned has literally told the truth the entire time, which actually makes the most sense as opposed to Ned conjuring up a lie in order to fit a conjured up theory. This is why I go back and forth between NAJ and ALJ.

I can only say:

The assumption that there is only one answer to the question--that's struck me as untenable, even when I favored RLJ.

Especially after reading Lysa's confession at the Moon Door--that's when I KNEW--Martin does not present readers with only one feasible answer. And he doesn't always go with the most "evidenced" answer.

And if Jon is Ned's all along (which I think would arguably be the most emotionally satisfying)--it is a workable answer. Period.

Aug 22, 2017 3:25:31 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

Edric says Ned broke Ashara's heart and killed Arthur. So why was he named after Ned? I can't think of any reason other than preserving Arthur's honor, returning Dawn, and letting Ashara escape Robert's wrath (with Dany). Any one alone would just offset the others, but all 3 might be worth naming your house's heir after.

That kid and his name are a clue. Period. Not "proof"--but a big clue strongly worth considering.

Martin even draws a circle around it for readers, just in case we didn't notice:

"Ned, help me remove my breastplate."

Arya got goosebumps when Lord Beric said her father's name, but this Ned was only a boy, a fair-haired squire no more than ten or twelve. He stepped up quickly to undo the clasps that fastened the battered steel about the Marcher lord. Storm, Arya VI

When we realize Martin chose "this Ned's" name all the way back in Game, years before "this Ned" appeared on page, "this Ned's" name means something. Big.

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kinglittlefinger
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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Aug 22, 2017 21:27:32 GMT via mobile SlyWren, whitewolfstark, and 2 more like this

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Post by kinglittlefinger on Aug 22, 2017 21:27:32 GMT

Aug 22, 2017 14:23:00 GMT SlyWren said:

And if Jon is Ned's all along (which I think would arguably be the most emotionally satisfying)--it is a workable answer. Period.

Definitely the most satisfying, as Ned is currently one of the most non-gray moral characters in the books IMO. He and Rhaegar both need some character flaws before the series finishes up.

Unfortunately the fact that D&D said they had to name Jon's mother before GRRM signed off on the HBO deal is virtually a confirmation that Jon is Lyanna's IMO, but I'm still holding out for my main man Arthur.

RLD at the tower of joy (why is it not capitalized when Ned refers to it btw???) and a NAJ baby swap at Starfall would fit so perfectly though. GRRM the self-proclaimed feminist taking advantage of our expectation that a hidden heir will be the male character and pulling the rug out from beneath us one final time.

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Aug 26, 2017 15:10:23 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on Aug 26, 2017 15:10:23 GMT

Aug 26, 2017 14:36:30 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

Definitely the most satisfying, as Ned is currently one of the most non-gray moral characters in the books IMO. He and Rhaegar both need some character flaws before the series finishes up.

I'm pretty sure Rhaegar was planning to kill his father. Was definitely up for it at the Defiance of Duskendale.

Ned? I doubt he plotted to kill anyone in his own family.

And he has been shown to be fallible. But I think we're in for another big "OOOPS!!" from Ned. Somehow.

Aug 26, 2017 14:36:30 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

Unfortunately the fact that D&D said they had to name Jon's mother before GRRM signed off on the HBO deal is virtually a confirmation that Jon is Lyanna's IMO, but I'm still holding out for my main man Arthur.

At this point, I'm just holding out for another book.

Any book, George. I'd take a picture book. A pop-up. Scratch and sniff. Even one with the puffy plastic pages for infants. Just advance the story already!

Aug 26, 2017 14:36:30 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

RLD at the tower of joy (why is it not capitalized when Ned refers to it btw???)

On the capitals--pretty sure because it wasn't a "real" title. Any more than Baelish's run-down tower in the middle of nowhere is really called the drearfort. (A tower where he takes a Stark maid who's part of his plan. But then marries someone else entirely. Just saying.

)

Aug 26, 2017 14:36:30 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

and a NAJ baby swap at Starfall would fit so perfectly though. GRRM the self-proclaimed feminist taking advantage of our expectation that a hidden heir will be the male character and pulling the rug out from beneath us one final time.

HA! Very possible. Though I'm still struck by Oberyn's name--http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1494/crackpot-oberyn-oberon-changeling-child

If there's a changeling, I'm guessing it's Dany.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Dec 14, 2017 5:27:11 GMT voice and whitewolfstark like this

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Post by shymaid on Dec 14, 2017 5:27:11 GMT

During our current reread many things come up that influences my own reread of Dance. One of these was something that reminded me of something I noticed while rereading the battle for Castle Black (before the main attack from the wildlings beyond the Wall) a few months ago. As I read this with a ALJ lense, the parallells between Jon and Arthur seemed very striking to me, and I put in the back of my mind for more ingredients from other parts of the book. But as I wrote down the gist of my thoughtprocess, I decided to put it here as well. Any input from anyone is welcome!

When I first noticed the Castle Black scene, I was looking for clues to connection points between Arthur and Jon and the possibility for ALJ. And I do think that would be a nice fit in many ways. Here are the broad strokes:

Jon defends the King's Tower with a brother from Oldtown and another associated with his ears (deaf); Arhtur defends his king's tower (provided they were staging a coup) with a brother from Oldtown and Whent. The connection point with the third man would be ears - Pyp - Whent.

Jon and Ygritte is on opposite sides of the war, but have no real fight between them selves (I doubt Ygritte would actually kill him if she could) as they are in love; Arthur and Lyanna is on opposite sides of the war, but have no real fight between them, and might have fallen in love.

Jon is fighting as a possibly dead-man-walking due to a failed clandestine mission; Arthur was fighting as a possibly dead-man-walking due to a failed clandestine mission (if that led to the outbreak of the rebellion, but I still hold off somewhat on that for the moment).

Jon survives the fight but Ygritte is killed by another tower, did Arthur live but Lyanna died at another tower? Yes, it fuels my favorite tinfoil (Arthur=Mance)!

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Feb 25, 2018 16:32:43 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Feb 25, 2018 16:32:43 GMT

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

On the capitals--pretty sure because it wasn't a "real" title. Any more than Baelish's run-down tower in the middle of nowhere is really called the drearfort. (A tower where he takes a Stark maid who's part of his plan. But then marries someone else entirely. Just saying.

)

This is a great observation. So, perhaps Lyanna was at the toj at some point, but was not either married to or impregnated by Rhaegar, and then she is taken somewhere else. Sansa spends only a small amount of time (one night, I think) at Baelish's creepy little tower before she is taken to the Eyrie, so Lyanna might have spent an equally small time at the toj before being taken somewhere secure. I know that Starfall is the most commonly thought "other" place Lyanna might have been taken to, but it could be somewhere else, I suppose. Could Lyanna have been given a new identity as Wylla, just as Sansa is given the identity of Alayne? Will we get a conclusion to Lyanna's story to hint at us of Sansa's fate, or vice versa? If this is the case, then Arthur guarding Lyanna could be mirrored by Lothor Brune protecting Sansa from rape, but Sansa thinks that Lothor is interested in Mya, and not herself, so how does that relate back to the idea of Arthur and Lyanna? Perhaps I am looking too hard at possible echoes.

There is a lot of symbolism in Jon's story for Arthur Dayne as Jon's father, far more than NAJ, I have come to see.

As to who Rhaegar might have married at the toj, do we have any candidates besides Ashara?

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Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Aug 10, 2016 16:49:08 GMT

Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 5, 2017 19:42:40 GMT

Post by shymaid on May 2, 2017 7:31:24 GMT

Post by haloid on May 2, 2017 22:07:54 GMT

Post by shymaid on May 3, 2017 5:18:46 GMT

Post by SlyWren on Aug 22, 2017 0:46:42 GMT

Post by kinglittlefinger on Aug 22, 2017 3:25:31 GMT

Post by SlyWren on Aug 22, 2017 14:23:00 GMT

Post by kinglittlefinger on Aug 22, 2017 21:27:32 GMT

Post by SlyWren on Aug 26, 2017 15:10:23 GMT

Post by shymaid on Dec 14, 2017 5:27:11 GMT

Post by stdaga on Feb 25, 2018 16:32:43 GMT