Arthur + Lyanna = Jon

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 2:27:28 GMT

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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 2:27:28 GMT

Jul 30, 2015 0:22:25 GMT wolfmaid7 said:

This is one of those arguments in favor that i don't buy and i would say Arthur under some X circumstances may be a lil down.But i think Lyanna who grew up around people from who the phrase was derived "melancholic like a Stark" if Artgur was her beau found something else to be drawn too. The man was a smooth badass.

All in all i really like this essay because i think it touched on the same thing that the Eddard essay touched on.Honorable men despite what external and internal oath they think themselves behholden too are human.Love is the thing that slays giants.It can make an honorable man forget his false honor and bring less than pious men to their knees.

I don't know if there is but i would have like to have seen something in text that pointed to romance something that was unique to them that wouldn't overlap with othet prospects.But again nicley done.

She DID tear up at the sad song sung by Rhaegar, so clearly she was not immune to the charms of melancholy. And I'm not saying Arthur was never happy. I'm saying he was complex. He was grave, he took his vows seriously, he was sometimes stern. But he also liked to fight, had a flair for the heroic and the chivalrous. He was also kind (helping the small folk) and brave(facing off with Ned) and strong (combat prowess) and fearless (the smiling knight). Plenty of room for both.

Remember, in Ned's dream Arthur smiles "sadly". It's a contradiction, a complexity. He's sad because of the responsibility he bore in causing the rebellion, but smiling because he is fond of Ned and Lyanna. This mixed portrait of emotions is what made Arthur such an interesting character. As we know, George writes rich, three dimensional characters, not silly caractures.

"Very well then, I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." - Walt Whitman

Last Edit: Jul 30, 2015 2:30:36 GMT by Deleted

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 2:56:29 GMT Mojo likes this

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Post by markg171 on Jul 30, 2015 2:56:29 GMT

Jul 30, 2015 2:27:28 GMT @superunknown5 said:

Remember, in Ned's dream Arthur smiles "sadly"

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

He wondered what Ser Arthur Dayne would have to say of this lot. "How is it that the Kingsguard has fallen so low," most like

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With Dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer.
But that was long ago, and the boy was dead.

Ser Arthur Dayne... S.A.D... SAD... sad

Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 4:27:50 GMT

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Post by Mojo on Jul 30, 2015 4:27:50 GMT

Did you highlight the conversation Edric Dayne has with Arya during ASOS? Here's some:

Her heart was broken."

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?"

He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place . . . "

"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal - "

"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."

"I'm sure he did, my lady, but - "

"She was the only one he loved."

"He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then," Gendry said behind them.

So we have an independent Edric confirming the rumor Catelyn thinks is true at WF. Not only that, but the first time I read, I thought it was no coincidence Edric was called Ned. There was something that tied the families. Why would the Lord of Starfall be named after Ned if there was a beef between them.

I think that chapter through my first read made me think Arthur and Lyanna. I didn't pick up on Rhaegar and Lyanna until later.

“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 4:29:29 GMT

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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 4:29:29 GMT

Jul 30, 2015 4:27:50 GMT Mojo said:

Did you highlight the conversation Edric Dayne has with Arya during ASOS? Here's some:

Her heart was broken."

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?"

He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place . . . "

"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal - "

"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."

"I'm sure he did, my lady, but - "

"She was the only one he loved."

"He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then," Gendry said behind them.

So we have an independent Edric confirming the rumor Catelyn thinks is true at WF. Not only that, but the first time I read, I thought it was no coincidence Edric was called Ned. There was something that tied the families. Why would the Lord of Starfall be named after Ned if there was a beef between them.

I think that chapter through my first read made me think Arthur and Lyanna. I didn't pick up on Rhaegar and Lyanna until later.

I thought something similar when I first read this chapter as well.

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 5:58:24 GMT

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Post by Mojo on Jul 30, 2015 5:58:24 GMT

Wait, @superunknown5, I just realized I accidentally argued Ned + Ashara instead...I better move my post to voice's thread!

I need to make it that far, again, to remember my reasoning for Arthur & Lyanna. It was tied to the idea that both families seem to have a great mutual respect for each other- the way Edric speaks of Ned and the way Ned thinks of Dayne. Also, we know Dayne was with Lyanna during the war.

Preston Jacobs made a good point in his ToJ video that it didn't make sense for Rhaegar to crown Lyanna at the tourney, go home and father another son, then kidnap Lyanna a year later.

“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 7:31:25 GMT

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Post by regular jon umber on Jul 30, 2015 7:31:25 GMT

Jul 29, 2015 17:34:51 GMT Mojo said:

How did Ned know Jon wouldn't grow up looking like a Targ risking Robert's wrath if anyone got suspicious?

Maybe it was already obvious? Jon would have been several months old before he had to make a firm decision, so he would already be able to see his hair colour and eye colour. He could probably already see more Lyanna in him than his father.

Another things to consider:

What sort of man would Lyanna be attracted to? She's supposed to have a bit of the wolf in her (paraphrasing); loves riding; would have worn a sword if she'd had one; It seems to me that Dayne would be attractive to someone like her, or am I wrong? It's technically impossible to say for sure...

The biggest issue that could arise from this theory is: why did the three Kingsguard stand and fight?

The only thing I can think of is: for honour, and for the vows they swore. Their king is dead, they have no one to protect, and maybe, just maybe, they feel guilty for what their actions caused. The only way they feel they can redeem themselves is a fight to the death, a sacrifice.

Last Edit: Jul 30, 2015 8:04:09 GMT by regular jon umber

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 15:29:23 GMT Mojo, voice, and 1 more like this

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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 15:29:23 GMT

Jul 30, 2015 7:31:25 GMT regular jon umber said:

Jul 29, 2015 17:34:51 GMT Mojo said:

How did Ned know Jon wouldn't grow up looking like a Targ risking Robert's wrath if anyone got suspicious?

Maybe it was already obvious? Jon would have been several months old before he had to make a firm decision, so he would already be able to see his hair colour and eye colour. He could probably already see more Lyanna in him than his father.

Another things to consider:

What sort of man would Lyanna be attracted to? She's supposed to have a bit of the wolf in her (paraphrasing); loves riding; would have worn a sword if she'd had one; It seems to me that Dayne would be attractive to someone like her, or am I wrong? It's technically impossible to say for sure...

The biggest issue that could arise from this theory is: why did the three Kingsguard stand and fight?

The only thing I can think of is: for honour, and for the vows they swore. Their king is dead, they have no one to protect, and maybe, just maybe, they feel guilty for what their actions caused. The only way they feel they can redeem themselves is a fight to the death, a sacrifice.

If you read the ToJ chapter very carefully, you'll notice, IMO, that Arthur doesn't seem to be on quite the same page as Hightower and Whent. They are angry. Defiant. They want blood.

Dayne is sad. Remorseful. Like he knows he has to fight Ned, but doesn't want to deep down. Maybe it's even an Arys Oakheart situation, like he's charging in all suicidal because he feels guilty about causing all the bloodshed.

He says, "Our knees do not bend easily."

Notice this phrase. If you're not paying close attention, you might assume he is being as defiant as the other two. But, he doesn't say "We will never bend the knee!". He doesn't throw it in Ned's face. He isn't angry. He almost sounds hesitant. Like he WANTS to bend the knee, but knows he can't.

"Our knees do not bend easily." *puppy dog eyes*

Last Edit: Jul 30, 2015 16:50:28 GMT by Deleted

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 16:52:53 GMT Mojo likes this

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Post by voice on Jul 30, 2015 16:52:53 GMT

Jul 30, 2015 5:58:24 GMT Mojo said:

I need to make it that far, again, to remember my reasoning for Arthur & Lyanna. It was tied to the idea that both families seem to have a great mutual respect for each other- the way Edric speaks of Ned and the way Ned thinks of Dayne. Also, we know Dayne was with Lyanna during the war.

We can also add to this list the naming of one Edric Dayne. Why would Edric's lord father name his heir after the man who killed his brother of the kingsguard, the last Sword of the Morning, greatest knight in living memory, when that same man soon thereafter broke his sister's heart (by sleeping with Wylla?? Was Ned a breast-man? sorry...LOL, I'm getting off topic...) and drove her to suicide?

Jul 30, 2015 5:58:24 GMT Mojo said:

Preston Jacobs made a good point in his ToJ video that it didn't make sense for Rhaegar to crown Lyanna at the tourney, go home and father another son, then kidnap Lyanna a year later.

Aye, m'lady. Tis like gazing upon a 3-D picture. Though thy eyes may be crossed, you appear of higher mind. LOL

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 30, 2015 17:28:55 GMT markg171, voice, and 2 more like this

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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 17:28:55 GMT

I use this example for possible interpretation of the KG:

"You know full well why we are here," said Stannis. "You have had a fortnight to consider my offer. You sent your ravens. No help has come. Nor will it. Storm's End stands alone, and I am out of patience. One last time, ser, I command you to open your gates, and deliver me that which is mine by rights."

"And the terms?" asked Ser Cortnay.

"Remain as before," said Stannis. "I will pardon you for your treason, as I have pardoned these lords you see behind me. The men of your garrison will be free to enter my service or to return unmolested to their homes. You may keep your weapons and as much property as a man can carry. I will require your horses and pack animals, however."

"And what of Edric Storm?"

"My brother's bastard must be surrendered to me."

"Then my answer is still no, my lord."

...

"It was Brienne," insisted Lord Caron. "Ser Emmon Cuy swore as much before he died. You have my oath on that, Ser Cortnay."

Contempt thickened Ser Cortnay's voice. "And what is that worth? You wear your cloak of many colors, I see. The one Renly gave you when you swore your oath to protect him. If he is dead, how is it you are not?" He turned his scorn on Guyard Morrigen. "I might ask the same of you, ser. Guyard the Green, yes? Of the Rainbow Guard? Sworn to give his own life for his king's? if I had such a cloak, I would be ashamed to wear it."

Morrigen bristled. "Be glad this is a parley, Penrose, or I would have your tongue for those words."

"And cast it in the same fire where you left your manhood?"

...

"I have heard your proposal, Lord Stannis. Now here is mine." He pulled off his glove and flung it full in the king's face. "Single combat. Sword, lance, or any weapon you care to name. Or if you fear to hazard your magic sword and royal skin against an old man, name you a champion, and I shall do the same."

...

Davos groped for some other answer. "Storm's End holds no knight who can match Ser Guyard or Lord Caron, or any of a hundred others sworn to your service. This single combat . . . could it be that Ser Cortnay seeks for a way to yield with honor? Even if it means his own life?"

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 31, 2015 1:42:42 GMT voice likes this

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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 31, 2015 1:42:42 GMT

Jul 30, 2015 17:28:55 GMT @prettypig said:

Davos groped for some other answer. "Storm's End holds no knight who can match Ser Guyard or Lord Caron, or any of a hundred others sworn to your service. This single combat . . . could it be that Ser Cortnay seeks for a way to yield with honor? Even if it means his own life?"

Holy shit!!! This is spot on.

"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"

voice Administrator Absolution Bastard Posts: 9,520 Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2 Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 3 voice inherit Absolution Bastard Male Administrator 6 0 1 Apr 24, 2020 19:16:11 GMT 14,511 voice 9,520 Nightmare Moon Jul 22, 2015 20:02:17 GMT July 2015 Twitter voice Example 2 Example 3	Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 31, 2015 3:31:00 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by voice on Jul 31, 2015 3:31:00 GMT Jul 31, 2015 1:42:42 GMT wolfmaid7 said: Holy shit!!! This is spot on. It really is. Props @prettypig.
	"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 31, 2015 7:53:04 GMT Mojo, markg171, and 2 more like this

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Post by regular jon umber on Jul 31, 2015 7:53:04 GMT

Ok, so I've recently discovered asearchoficeandfire.com/ and I'm loving it.

Here's another quote from Lyanna:

Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell

It's obviously important that the person she's with is true to her. Rhaegar is already married, surely that doesn't gel with her world view?

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 31, 2015 8:01:15 GMT needleforarya likes this

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Post by regular jon umber on Jul 31, 2015 8:01:15 GMT

And more:

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

A white gown, spattered with gore. Brings to mind something pure brought low by something more a bit more human.

And one I often go back to:

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."
There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

What does that mean? Why had he not remembered Rhaegar in years? If Rhaegar was Jon's father, surely he would think on him more often, like every time he saw Jon?

Another interesting one, from Jaime's dream:

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.
Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

Ok, so Rhaegar is there too, so it doesn't really help

Last Edit: Jul 31, 2015 9:21:51 GMT by regular jon umber

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 31, 2015 8:19:52 GMT markg171 likes this

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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 8:19:52 GMT

Jul 31, 2015 8:01:15 GMT regular jon umber said:

And more:

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

A white gown, spattered with gore. Brings to mind something pure brought low by something more a bit more human.

White represents the KG. Gore is blood, which represents Arthur.

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Arthur + Lyanna = Jon Jul 31, 2015 15:35:42 GMT

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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 15:35:42 GMT

"But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds."

Another forehead slappingly obvious connection. Lyanna is described as "sad" in Theon's dream.

Last Edit: Jul 31, 2015 15:39:23 GMT by Deleted

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