Are El Jay?

The largest issue, for me, is Eddard.

As detailed here, Eddard seems to exclude Rhaegar from the type of behavior that leads to the siring of bastards....and... Eddard finds himself not-remembering Rhaegar for years at a time. If he is raising Rhae's son, looking into his face on a daily basis, this seems odd.

The fact that Jon takes after the Starks more so than the Targaryians shouldn’t be that big of a surprise since he has black hair instead of light. In the real world I take after my mothers side of the family and my sister more from my dads. If I stand next to my uncle many of my features can be seen in him. It shouldn’t be too strange that Jon would be passed off as Ned’s son.

Just admit it. R+L=J is the law of the land now.

It has been the dogma of the land for a decade more like. I am about 60/40 on R+L=J. What I don't like is the vehemence that people cling to RLJ and spew hatred at anyone who thinks differently.

So much of it is interpretation. I have seen the same quotes used to prove and disprove R+L=J. I just want a discussion of the theories.

The problem though is that Ned also says Jon looks incredibly like him. It's not just other people, who either never knew Rhaegar or haven't seen him in 15 years. Jon's features wouldn't "fool" Ned if Ned knows that Jon isn't actually his son. He should be perfectly capable of looking at Jon and seeing the "truth" on Jon's face if there actually is anything to see other than a resemblance to himself. Instead he says he basically looks exactly like he himself did when he was younger. Ned doesn't see any other features to suggest any other parentage other than his own.

In which case either Jon has zero Targaryen features, or Ned himself looks like a Targaryen. As interesting as the latter would be, it's the first one that's more likely.

People thought the world was flat until they found out it was round, people thought that the sun orbited the earth, until they found out the earth in fact orbited the sun.

I am not saying R+L=J isn't going to turn out to be the truth for Jon Snow, but it has not been confirmed in anyway, not by HBO and certainly not by GRRM. Actually, the whole weird reveal about Jon Snow at the end of season 6 was what encouraged me to rethink Jon (and Dany's) parentage. The question merely was what makes me doubt that theory the most, and Jon's similarity to Ned is what strikes me most. It is certainly not the only thing that is off about the widely accepted fan theory regarding RLJ, but it's highest on the list for me.

It does not seem that GRRM's genetics work quite like the genetics of our world, so even though I am very like my Mom's youngest sister, people tend to think I look like my mother as well. And my Mom and Aunt don't actually look that much alike, but I look like them both. It get's muddled!

People can believe what they want about Jon's parentage, I certainly don't mind. We all can interpret the information in many ways, and we do. That is the fun of this whole crazy mystery!

Yes I did! LOL

Thanks for the clarification. It's a very interesting observation.

In other words, Ned is the Sealord, and recognizes his cat just fine. Others simply happen to recognize said cat just fine as well, as they are never told it is some fantastical creature.

(Unless they hear it at W or Reddit LOL)

As to the actual purpose of this thread, the reason I have problems with RLJ are

• Arthur Dayne is described by Jaime as a commander who always made sure to fortify his camps, no matter how seemingly out of harm they were. Jon Connington says more or less the same. So why did he choose to fight outside the tower, and give up the advantage of its walls, unless he was trying to keep whatever was inside, inside? Furthermore, choosing to fight outside the tower gives Ned and his men, who were all mounted according to the dream, the chance to charge the KG. These are basic mistakes that shouldn't being made by such a competent commander that don't make sense if the KG were trying to defend what was inside. They're practically limiting their entire ability to guard the tower, but they're doing everything right to ensure whatever's inside doesn't get out.
• R+L=J says that Jon looks like Arya who we are told looks like Lyanna so therefore Jon looks like Lyanna. But Jon is described by Ned himself as looking like a younger version of himself. And Cersei later mentions in Feast that Jon looks very much like Ned. And Qhorin as well mentions that Jon looks like Eddard. Catelyn says so as well. We have multiple characters saying that Jon looks like Ned, but no one ever says that he looks like Lyanna. So Jon looks very much like Ned, not Lyanna. Even Arya is said to look like Ned. The common person here is Ned. He doesn't look like Lyanna, that's a stretch.
• Furthermore, Jon is described as being dark where Robb is fair, after Robb is described as having fair skin. This means that Jon has darker skin. Which couldn’t possibly come from Rhaegar who was fair himself. The only darker skinned Westorosi are Dornish, and Lyanna ain't Dornish either.
• Lyanna did not think that Robert could keep to one bed. It's awfully hypocritical that she would then willingly go off with an already married man and ruin that family, after expressing distaste at marrying a man who would ruin her own family with extra marital children. Furthermore, Lyanna expresses this opinion 2-3 years before she is abducted... we have no idea if she changed her opinion of Robert or not so it shouldn't just be assumed that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert based off an old comment from the night she was promised to him.
- During this 2-3 years there's also conveniently no bastards from Robert. AKA the whole reason Lyanna didn't want to marry him. She never said Robert wasn't handsome and charming like everybody else thought, she didn't like his fidelity issues. There's no evidence of this here, thus no reason for her to not go through with the marriage
• Ned mentions that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years, which would be weird if he was raising his son
• Ned doesn't think Rhaegar was the kind of guy to visit brothels (i.e sleep around) which means he wouldn't leave Elia to sleep with another woman
• Nothing in the TOJ sequence shows any clue that the KG had prior knowledge of the war until Ned tells them. In fact, the entire sequence is written as Ned telling them what has happened, and the KG show a glaring ignorance of the war in their responses indicating that they're not there because they believe the line of succession runs to a baby Lyanna is potentially birthing (the KG think they could have changed the Trident, that Aerys would still be King if they’d been in KL, that the war isn’t over despite 6 kingdoms bending the knee to Robert, etc). They're nowhere near as well informed as people think.
• One of Lyanna's "promise me" is brought up after Ned reminds Robert that Rhaegar is dead, which could seemingly indicate that this promise me possibly relates to Rhaegar's being dead. If Rhaegar had abducted her and been raping her, she would want to make damn sure he was dead. Ned even said there were promises, not promise.
• Jon has a direwolf, when the other direwolves all conveniently correspond solely to Ned's kids
• If the blue rose symbolizes R+L=J, then the fact that Ned found Lyanna with black dead roses indicates that their relationship was dead and if she ever gave birth it was a stillbirth or the child didn't live seeing as the symbol of their relationship was dead also.
• Rhaegar said there must be 3 heads, but the 3 headed dragon was Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys when they conquered Westoros. Those are 3 full blooded siblings. Any child other than one by Rhaegar and Elia wouldn't make a 3rd head. It would make an Orys. They also needed a Visenya, not another boy. Furthermore, we have no idea if Rhaegar even uttered this as the visions have mistakes in them, and also we don't know if he uttered it because he needed a child from another woman as is claimed. We know that Elia couldn't give birth anymore, but we don't know if Rhaegar knows this yet at the time of the vision. He could just as easily have been saying that he and Elia need another child
• Ashara Dayne seemingly gave birth at the exact time that Jon was supposedly born at, and we have a prior connection between Ashara and the Starks as Ned and Ashara danced together at Harrenhal and after being dishonoured she turned to some Stark. So it's entirely possible that Ashara's child was a Stark. Barristan says it died, but how would Barristan have known?
- Wylla also seemingly gave birth at the same time Jon was supposedly born at, and Ned, Robert, and Edric all say she's the mother
- Regardless, that means there's at 2 babies borns at the right time for Jon, even without Lyanna ever being pregnant. Lyanna simply makes 3 babies. No matter what we've got extra babies and 2 kids who need identities. It's silly to say which one definitely is Jon.
• The Dayne's have enormous respect for Ned which is weird considering he killed Arthur so there's something in there that he did for them and Ned and Arthur were both sad upon seeing they must fight each other. This would seem to point to Arthur being the father if Lyanna was Jon's mother, not Rhaegar, or it would indicate that Ashara was the mother. Dayne/Stark familiarity just doesn't work with Rhaegar in the equation.
• Ned is excited when he hears that Robert is coming to Winterfell, which is odd if he was afraid that Robert might notice he was raising Rhaegar's son
• Robert remembers the girl Ned fathered Jon on, indicating that Ned either told Robert back during Robert’s Rebellion, or during the Greyjoy Rebellion seeing as that’s the last 2 times that he saw him. Edric Dayne later confirms that the woman that Ned named is indeed Jon's mother and that he knows this as the woman works for him. As Lord of Starfall, it would be pretty odd if every single person in his household was lying to him when he can command them to tell him the truth, and it's a little odd that Ned's best friend is the only person actually aware of who the mother is. Why should Robert get the explanation but others don't?
• However, if Wylla and all of the servants at Starfall were lying to Edric, than what happens when one of these servants gets dismissed? Are we just to assume that these servants are free to wander around knowing that a child of Rhaegar's is alive and well in the world? There's no way that they can be in on a deception to Edric as it can't be guaranteed that they'll remain at Starfall
• Calling someone your blood is the same as calling them your child (which Ned actually does in the first chapter). Catelyn calls Arya her blood. Mormont also says that Jon is Ned’s blood, bastard or not. He also says that Jon will never hold a child of his own blood in his arms, while saying that Robb will father sons (implying that when Jon holds Robb’s child he will not be his blood). It has nothing to do with cousins or nephews or anything in the north like it does in the south. It's a clear lineal relationship that you actually do have their blood because they were your parent.
• Any tendency of Jon's that could be construed as either a natural thing from either Rhaegar or Lyanna can still be attributed to Ned without issue. Ned was a quiet wolf, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a wolf.
• GRRM said that Howland Reed has not made an appearance because he knows too much about the central mystery of the novels. The central mystery is nowhere near who Jon's mother is as no one in the books cares. Even if it was, Ned says that "they" found him holding Lyanna. So there would be more than just Howland who knew that Jon is Lyanna's and not his, hence Howland cannot possibly be being held back as only he knows too much about Jon's parentage.
• Not only that, but Howland is the only person that we know of who visited the green men on the Isle of the Faces. The Green Men would seemingly know more about the Others, the main mystery of the novel, than of Jon’s parents.
• The evidence for Rhaegar and Lyanna being married is extremely thin. The last polygamous marriage was near 250 years ago. Lyanna and Rhaegar couldn’t get married in front of a heart tree at the Isle of Faces as it is specifically off limit, and no lord would let them use their godswood as it would mean war. A sept is also out of the question, as no septon could allow a polygamous marriage, except the High Septon who lives in King’s Landing. So Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have married in front of a septon. Furthermore, there was no one to give away Lyanna. We are given 4 possible people who can give someone away: the father, the lord, the king, or the kin. Rickard as the father or lord didn’t give her away. Ned as the lord didn’t either. Aerys as the king didn’t. Kin are used as a last resort, when the previous 3 aren’t available, yet they seemingly all were. So no one gave away Lyanna. Marriage = no, even before you talk about how polygamy is illegal
• If Jon is Rhaegar's son, Aegon is the elder brother and would inherit anything before Jon would. Besides, the throne is in Baratheon hands. If a Targaryen wants the throne, they must conquer it in which case who they are matters not. Jon ending up on the throne would be just as much of a convenience as the fact that Robert had Targaryen blood then: ultimately really irrelevant compared to his winning the conquest.
• Ned never tells anybody who Jon's mother was as to do so would just separate his family. Letting everyone focus on the fact that he's Ned's, and not on who his mother was, serves to unify his family. Reminding them of the differences separates the family, which Bran's vision shows that Ned didn't want
• Ned's lies of 14 years refer to the Sack. Before he thinks of his lies of 14 years, he decides that he's going to tell Robert the truth of the Sack. The entire conversation about his lies, are about the Sack. Not Jon. So his lies of 14 years are regarding the Sack. They don't even fit Jon anyways considering Jon is 15.
• Ned openly admits after a dream about Lyanna that he's going mad, therefore indicating that parts of it are either wrong, or never even happened. The narrator is literally unreliable.
• There are births in the novels without bloody beds. Bloody beds don't have to mean births.
• Only clue for birth at the TOJ occurs while Ned was fighting the KG as Lyanna screams in the dream. If Lyanna was giving birth as Ned was fighting the KG, she couldn't have died of puerperal fever which happens days afterwards. Furthermore, there's nothing indicating that she died of a fever at all. She had a fever, that doesn't mean it's what killed her. Fevers are generally the result of something else wrong, especially in this series where they're overwhelmingly used to indicate injuries.
• If Lyanna had actually given birth before Ned arrived at the TOJ, why didn't the KG flee with the heir? Lyanna is not heir, the baby was. The fact that Lyanna was dying mattered nothing to the succession, the life of the baby did. If they were doing their duty as KG by protecting the heir, they should have fled with it. Instead, they say that they cannot flee. This either means the baby hasn't been born and they cannot flee because they cannot move Lyanna and must stay till the baby is born, in which case see above and see how it's impossible that Lyanna died of puerperal fever. Or they cannot flee because Lyanna is their prisoner and Rhaegar commanded them to stay which goes hand in hand with the fact that their behaviour mimics that of guards in the novels and GRRM saying that they couldn't leave if Rhaegar had ordered them to stay. Basically, a baby doesn't matter at all to what the KG did.
• Ned says Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early death. Dying from puerperal fever after having given birth doesn't sound like dying from doing something reckless. It's also an incredible stretch to tie her wolf's blood death to something that happened like 2 years before.
• Ned never says that Aerys KG were good KG as RLJ claims. He specifically says that the KG used to be great, and we know that Aerys' KG had flaws so Ned cannot be describing them (Jaime killed his king, Barristan switched sides, Hightower stood by and watched Aerys murder his brother and father, Lewyn broke his vow of celibacy, Arthur and Oswell kidnapped Lyanna, etc.). Plus, the only one we know he holds in high esteem is Dayne, and he calls him a great knight and fighter, not KG. Nothing says Ned found the 3 KG to be good KG.
• In Jaime’s fever dream, Rhaegar, the Kingsguard, and Jaime, all believe that Rhaegar’s wife and children died in the Sack of King’s Landing. So as far as Jaime knows, seeing as it’s his dream, Rhaegar did not have a second wife in Lyanna, nor did he have another child in Jon as to Jaime, Rhaegar’s wife and children died in the Sack. Jaime is the only person in the story who talked with Rhaegar after he returned from the TOJ so he therefore is one of our best sources of information concerning a Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship. And Jaime says that there wasn’t one.
- Furthermore, Ned himself thinks about how Rhaegar's children are dead and that he needs to save Cersei's this time. If he saved one of Rhaegar's children in Jon then Ned's own thoughts make no sense. Ned clearly thinks Rhaegar's kids are dead and he never quantifies on Elia's.
• Cersei mentions to Ned that she’s seen Jon, and then 2/3 of possible mothers she names (Dornish peasant, whore, or Ashara Dayne) are Dornish. Which could indicate that Jon has Dornish features, which he wouldn’t get from Rhaegar or Lyanna, but would get if his mother was Ashara or Wylla or he had a Dornish father.
• Not only that, but we’ve had 7 characters in the story talk about Jon’s mother: Ned, Robert, Cersei, Catelyn, Edric Dayne, Godric Borrell, and Tyrion. 5/7 of those people believe the mother to be Dornish (either Wylla or Ashara), while 1 believes it’s someone from the Vale, and 1 can’t tell as Jon’s features are too Starkish. So the majority of characters believe him to be of Dornish descent, and this must be believable, otherwise they wouldn’t believe this. So Jon potentially has some Dornish features otherwise people wouldn’t believe that he had a Dornish mother. Now if Jon has Dornish features, he wouldn’t get them from Rhaegar, seeing as Rhaegar’s last Dornish ancestor was 4 generations ago. Which would make it 5 generations for Jon, if he was his son. And Lyanna obviously doesn’t have any Dornish features. Now if Jon was indeed Wylla or Ashara’s child, then it would make sense for why all these people believe that he was: because there’s something Dornish in his features and he got them from his mother. Or he's got a Dornish father. Either way, not RLJ.
• Rhaegar called the tower the tower of joy, but we have no idea if he named it that because it made him joyful and not someone else. Nothing says it was Rhaegar's TOJ. Also, it never actually says Rhaegar named the tower. It says that's what he told people it was called. Rhaegar is perfectly capable of saying "that's the toj" without actually having literally anything to do with its name.
• Theon dreams of the dead, and in his dream Lyanna is spattered in gore. The only time in the novels that someone is described being spattered in gore is Balon Swann at the Blackwater, and Gregor Clegane during his duel with Oberyn. Both are spattered in gore from fighting. So Lyanna must have fought someone. In fact, the word gore is only ever used in the books and Dunk and Egg series to depict someone who has been in battle.
• Not only that, but everyone single person in Theon’s dream was murdered. So why is Lyanna featured in a dream about murdered people, if she died of puerperal fever or childbirth as R+L=J suggests? Ned lists one of the reasons that he rebelled was to stop the murder of children. The first time we hear about Lyanna, she is described as a child-woman. Lyanna therefore fits as the murdered child that caused Ned to rebel. Neither fits with childbirth death
• While arguing with Robert over the decision to send assassin’s after Rhaego, Ned can’t believe that Robert would be scared of an unborn child of Targaryen descent. If Jon is Rhaegar’s son, then why would this situation be any different? RLJ claims that Ned hid Jon as he believed that Robert would kill him. But we see that Ned doesn’t think this at all. Now obviously Robert does try and kill Rhaego, but Ned never thought he would do it, and he spent years content letting Viserys and Dany live. So there’s nothing to suggest that he would suddenly attempt to kill Jon, nor does Ned think he would have done so. Ned can't hide Jon from something he literally doesn't even fear.
• We have no idea if Lyanna was even fertile. We have no problem assuming that Ned is fertile however given the fact that he has at least 5 children, 6 if we include Jon, and Cat still believed that he could give her a child in AGOT. Ned is known to be fertile. Lyanna is not.
• Ned likely never even fought the KG at the TOJ. The only source for them having been there is Ned’s fever dream that GRRM has told us not to trust. But why shouldn’t we trust it? Well for one, it’s the only account of Ned’s fight with Arthur that ever places the battle at this location. Ned, Ned’s soldiers, and Yandel never say that Ned, Howland, Arthur, Whent, and Hightower fought here. Furthermore, when Ned wakes from the dream, he never says that the three men he fought there were the KG in his dream. He associates Martyn Cassel as having died there, and everyone else in the battle except himself and Howland… but not that everyone in the dream died at this tower. Thirdly, Ned says that he hadn’t dreamt that “old dream” in “so many years” implying that it’s been a very long time since he last had this dream. But Bran says that his father has talked to him about his fight with Arthur, and that he did it when Bran was younger (let’s say 4-5). That means that Ned’s thought about this fight in the last 3 years, so shouldn’t he have had the dream about it if he’s so haunted by the fight at the TOJ? But instead he says it’s been many years, so it’s odd that Ned reliving his battle with Arthur when he told Bran that he fought him never spurred on this dream that haunts him, if it was the same fight that he dream about.
- Furthermore, when Ned thinks about the memory of his fight at the tower, he gets angry – he says it’s a bitter memory for him. But Bran tells us that when Ned remembers his fight with Arthur, he gets sad. Why is Ned having two vastly different emotions if they were in fact the same fight?
• Jaime tells us that Rhaegar returned as Barristan and Darry were about to leave to gather the remnants of the royalist army which had been defeated at the Battle of the Bells. This would mean that for R+L=J that Rhaegar would have had to have impregnated Lyanna before the Battle of the Bells as he couldn’t have impregnated her after he was already gone. But Robb is older than Jon, and Robb was only conceived after the Battle of the Bells so Jon should be older if he was conceived weeks earlier. Furthermore, Rhaegar impregnating Lyanna before the Battle of the Bells means that Jon should have been born before the Trident, but RLJ claims that Jon was born after the Siege of Storm’s End. Which would mean an impossibly long pregnancy where Lyanna was pregnant for like 11 months. So it’s physically impossible that Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna and she gave birth to his child when RLJ claims given when Rhaegar is known to have returned and when RLJ says the kid was born. Either Jon's months old by the TOJ, see the prior argument about how that doesn't make sense with the KG, or we've got a different father.
• If Lyanna did indeed ask to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell as Ned claims, then there’s no possible way that she married Rhaegar, because if she married Rhaegar then she would no longer be a Stark as she would have married into the Targaryen family. The Stark crypts are for Stark family only, there are no cases of any Starks who left the family and were buried in the crypts. So Lyanna wouldn’t be asking to be buried in Winterfell if she knew that she was no longer a Stark. Ned even says it was her place. No marriage.
• While thinking about Jon, Ned says that bastards are created from lustful men. Not women. RLJ claims that Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar, and use Ned’s quote about her wolf blood leading to an early grave as evidence for this. But this doesn’t fit with Ned’s bastard quote, as Lyanna would have been a lustful women then, and only lustful men result in bastards.
• Ned tells us that he has never considered Jon to be in danger from Catelyn as he specifically wonders when he confronts Cersei about her bastards what Cat would do if she had to choose between Jon and her children, and Ned tells us that he does not know the answer. If he’s been raising Rhaegar’s son for the last 15 years, surely Ned would have thought about the fact that it’s almost a guarantee that Cat would choose her children over Jon. Instead as far as Ned is concerned, he doesn’t know if Cat would kill Jon to protect her children. Which means that he’s never considered Jon to be a danger to her children. Which he undoubtedly is under RLJ
• Despite what the wiki says, we have no idea what Lyanna’s eye colours were. It’s simply assumed that they were grey as Ned says that Arya looks like Lyanna and Bran presumably mistakes a young Lyanna for Arya, and Arya has dark grey eyes. But we are never actually told that Lyanna has grey eyes, and grey eyes are not actually the only Stark eye colour, as Benjen has blue-grey eyes. So Lyanna possibly had blue eyes (and Ned does curiously describe something in his TOJ vision as “blue as the eyes of death”). But if Lyanna had blue eyes, and Rhaegar had purple eyes, then it’s impossible that they had a grey eyed child like Jon.
• Ned says that Lyanna wanted to rest beside Brandon and Rickard. Given that Aerys killed them for being traitors, I highly doubt that their bodies were ever returned to Winterfell while Aerys lived. Seems to me that only once Robert ascended the throne would their bodies be sent home to Winterfell, which seems to me that we're looking at some months between Robert's ascension to Ned possibly talking to Lyanna for Brandon and Rickard to have been returned to Winterfell by that point. Which again disputes the entire timeline RLJers use.
• Bed of blood isn’t actually a reference to childbirth. At least not in the way that RLJ uses it. RLJ uses MMD discussing “the bloody bed” and Aeron Greyjoy’s “beds of blood”, which are quotes about childbirth to support the fact that Lyanna also gave birth. But this ignores the very context of these quotes, which are actually about children dying during birth/not living. MMD mentions that she knows the secrets of the bloody bed and that she’s never lost a child. The bloody bed is about stillbirths and how she never has any when she is the midwife. Plus, we know that MMD had no plan to let Rhaego be born, and was planning to kill him and she did. MMD was talking about children dying during birth when she talks about the bloody bed. And Aeron’s “beds of blood” is a quote about how Quellon Greyjoy sired 9 sons, but 5 died young, and how women birth short lived children from beds of blood. Aeron is talking about children dying. So if you wanna talk about her bed of blood meaning childbirth, you really need to re-examine it the light that it's mostly child death happening in the supporting quotes. Lyanna’s bed of blood could be a reference to childbirth… but the baby didn’t live.
- Rhaegar was said to be dutiful. That's not sleeping with another woman
- The HOTU visions, which many claim to be some of the greatest evidence for RLJ, are full of holes, especially the ones supposed to support RLJ. Rhaegar never died saying anybody's name because that's literally impossible with a crushed chest and nobody who was there witnessed it and furthermore Rhaegar died on his horse, he didn't get killed in the river. Never happened. Aegon's nursery wasn't in Rhaegar and Elia's room. Never happened. The flower is growing at the Wall but Jon isn't even at the Wall then and furthermore certainly never did what the flower did which is be sweet.
- Rhaegar and Lyanna literally aren't even in Jon's story besides how Donal forged the hammer that killed Rhaegar
- Jon has never done anything all story that needs an alternative parentage
- Ned literally thinks of Jon like 3 times in AGOT. He's not at all a factor in any part of the story.
- While there have been Targaryens who don't look like Valyrian, a quick look over the family tree will showcase that the vast majority still look like Valyrians no matter if they had mixed parents. The odds are much greater that Lyanna's kid would look Targaryen than not. Targaryen blood is incredibly strong, not weak.
- As a bit of an aside to the above however, it's also completely irrelevant that say a Targ/Martell makes Targaryens that look like Martells or whatever prior combination. We're talking Stark/Targ, not Martell/Targ. What happened to other families is irrelevant unless they have similar genes. And at least the Blackwood/Targ is similar due to their First Men blood, northern blood, and the fact that Starks have recent Blackwood blood, and they overwhelmingly came out looking like Targaryens. If you want to talk about mixed parents supporting a Stark/Targ who looks like a Stark, the evidence suggest the opposite.

I'm sure I'm forgetting tons. Some of this is old stuff I've saved from before and some I came up with on the spot as I went over it, but it seems to me that RLJ isn't a simple fix like RLJers claim. Rather it creates tons of scenarios, stretches, and misinterpretations. If anything it's attempting to put a square peg in a round hole. Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon is certainly a simply fix on the surface in that yeah Rhaegar and Lyanna were fucking at the right time, but not at all when you get into it.