Relistening to The Rouge Prince and The Princess and the Queen not long ago, we do get a similar dilemma in the rumors on Rhaenyra and Criston. The suggestion that he wanted to take off with her, and she points out that this would render all future vows from him questionable. Same thing goes for Rhaegar here, imo. If he's willing to set aside one wife for a girl he barely knows, how long until he dumps her as well for someone new? From the POV of a girl concerned with fidelity, I don't think that's a good sign...
It would be different if they had something in common. Or knew each other. Or if Elia was dead at the time. Or if their Houses were allies. Or if she were not betrothed. Or.. Or... Or...
Given that GRRM is our author, is seems all the more ludicrous that Lyanna would abandon her convictions for a beautiful man (Cersei's own words) with a sick wife and two children at home. Given the honor of house Stark, and Lyanna's own pride in it ('That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf) it's even harder to imagine she would abandon those convictions when it would dishonor House Stark.
Lyanna was a conservative Stark-Supremacist. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It would be different if they had something in common. Or knew each other. Or if Elia was dead at the time. Or if their Houses were allies. Or if she were not betrothed. Or.. Or... Or...
Given that GRRM is our author, is seems all the more ludicrous that Lyanna would abandon her convictions for a beautiful man (Cersei's own words) with a sick wife and two children at home. Given the honor of house Stark, and Lyanna's own pride in it ('That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf) it's even harder to imagine she would abandon those convictions when it would dishonor House Stark.
Haha! I don't hold that against her, to be honest.
When you're getting hit on by a drunken womanizer and getting flowers from a married guy with a sick wife?
Heeeeelllll no. I don't fault her one bit.
Kinda weird that she fucked a brother instead of fantasy-muscles Robert and beautiful Rhaegar... but hey, if she did, she wouldn't be the first woman we learned of that had incest-level family loyalty. Far from it...
Women Willing to Bed Their Brothers in ASOIAF
Cersei + Jaime
Dany always assumed she would marry Viserys
Visenya and Rhaenys + Aegon the Conqueror
Princess Rhaena + Prince Aegon (children of King Aenys I)
"Good" Queen Alysanne + King Jaehaerys
Princess Alyssa + Prince Baelon (children of Alysanne and Jaehaerys)
Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.
I could make a whole other list of Stark women willing to bed Stark men (like Lyanna's mother).
Post by whitewolfstark on Jul 10, 2018 15:45:20 GMT
That said, we also have Dying of the Light, which I think gives you GRRM's opinion of R+L as a relationship and Rhaegar as an individual in general.
I mean that story all focuses around how Reformist Rhaegar (that's essentially who he is; who also comes complete with his own jealous pre-Jon Con who's been best buds with Reformist Rhaegar his entire life, taught him how to become a fighter and would do anything to protect his buddy... but why does he have to be displaced by a girl as the most important person in Reformist Rhaegar's life?? I guess I'll turn to drink to deal with the fact I'm closeted and won't admit it--sidekick/best friend/blood brother/companion) is on a doomed though admirable quest to reform a people who won't reform any further, it was for his reformist aspirations that Lyanna/Ashara--(Gwen is sorta a merger of the two characters, so let's call her Ashanna)--Ashanna came to like and eventually love Reformist Rhaegar for, eventually drinking the kool aid enough that she would "God Down With This Ship". It did help that Reformist Rhaegar loved Ashanna for the person she was, even if he did have Conservative hangups which she was overlooking--after all HE was forced to by his situation to be that way, what he really wants is to change all that, is what she convinces herself.
Meanwhile Nedbert (because the protagonist of that story is Ned and Robert combined) doesn't realize that while he may vocally say he's pro-feminist, he still has conservative trappings hiding underneath which turn Ashanna off of him--like putting her on a pedestal and calling her "Jenny" and falling in love with the image of Jenny, the idea of Jenny. Reformist Rhaegar may have trappings she finds distasteful, but at least he's in love with her as a person.
The picture I get of Rhaegar and Lyanna from Dying of the Light is that they likely believed they could change the world, and died realizing they were too naive about it and had drunk their own kool aid, which only will end in disaster for them.
When you're getting hit on by a drunken womanizer and getting flowers from a married guy with a sick wife?
Heeeeelllll no. I don't fault her one bit.
LOL! Being the center of attention from men is one thing; if those two are your options you might turn to your own men instead! I do wonder if Robert did something at Harrenhal to spark the wolfmaid's fury, real or misinterpreted, and contribute to her later actions.
Kinda weird that she fucked a brother instead of fantasy-muscles Robert and beautiful Rhaegar... but hey, if she did, she wouldn't be the first woman we learned of that had incest-level family loyalty. Far from it...
Haha! However, when you really squint at this list, one could discover that 10 of 12 points here are from the same non-Westerosi family. That could possibly indicate that it's limited to a narrow set of characters with a certain view of the world.
I could make a whole other list of Stark women willing to bed Stark men (like Lyanna's mother).
Oh, please do! Though I do put cousins in a different chategory than sibling/parent - child. Aunt/uncle - nephew/niece I put in the middle of these two.
That said, we also have Dying of the Light, which I think gives you GRRM's opinion of R+L as a relationship and Rhaegar as an individual in general.
I mean that story all focuses around how Reformist Rhaegar (that's essentially who he is; who also comes complete with his own jealous pre-Jon Con who's been best buds with Reformist Rhaegar his entire life, taught him how to become a fighter and would do anything to protect his buddy... but why does he have to be displaced by a girl as the most important person in Reformist Rhaegar's life?? I guess I'll turn to drink to deal with the fact I'm closeted and won't admit it--sidekick/best friend/blood brother/companion) is on a doomed though admirable quest to reform a people who won't reform any further, it was for his reformist aspirations that Lyanna/Ashara--(Gwen is sorta a merger of the two characters, so let's call her Ashanna)--Ashanna came to like and eventually love Reformist Rhaegar for, eventually drinking the kool aid enough that she would "God Down With This Ship". It did help that Reformist Rhaegar loved Ashanna for the person she was, even if he did have Conservative hangups which she was overlooking--after all HE was forced to by his situation to be that way, what he really wants is to change all that, is what she convinces herself.
Meanwhile Nedbert (because the protagonist of that story is Ned and Robert combined) doesn't realize that while he may vocally say he's pro-feminist, he still has conservative trappings hiding underneath which turn Ashanna off of him--like putting her on a pedestal and calling her "Jenny" and falling in love with the image of Jenny, the idea of Jenny. Reformist Rhaegar may have trappings she finds distasteful, but at least he's in love with her as a person.
The picture I get of Rhaegar and Lyanna from Dying of the Light is that they likely believed they could change the world, and died realizing they were too naive about it and had drunk their own kool aid, which only will end in disaster for them.
Haven't read this one yet, I'll put it on my list. Sounds interesting from what you write.
From my very limited understanding, Martin does re-use storylines but not always directly. Seems to me he explores the same dilemmas with differing circumstanses, which could/would lead to different results.
I mean that story all focuses around how Reformist Rhaegar (that's essentially who he is; who also comes complete with his own jealous pre-Jon Con who's been best buds with Reformist Rhaegar his entire life, taught him how to become a fighter and would do anything to protect his buddy... but why does he have to be displaced by a girl as the most important person in Reformist Rhaegar's life?? I guess I'll turn to drink to deal with the fact I'm closeted and won't admit it--sidekick/best friend/blood brother/companion) is on a doomed though admirable quest to reform a people who won't reform any further,
Definitely. And the hints are a lot stronger for Jon Con+Rhaegar than they were for Loras+Renly imo, then there's Arthur+Rhaegar.
I always go back to Jaime's affection for Rhaegar. There's real love there.
it was for his reformist aspirations that Lyanna/Ashara--(Gwen is sorta a merger of the two characters, so let's call her Ashanna)--Ashanna came to like and eventually love Reformist Rhaegar for, eventually drinking the kool aid enough that she would "God Down With This Ship". It did help that Reformist Rhaegar loved Ashanna for the person she was, even if he did have Conservative hangups which she was overlooking--after all HE was forced to by his situation to be that way, what he really wants is to change all that, is what she convinces herself.
I think Elia fits the role of Gwen better. Or Elia+Ashara.
I think Elia encouraged Ashara (an old friend whom I suspect may have been more than a friend) to give Rhaegar one more child.
Like Loras and Rhaegar, a lot of people of the opposite sex had crushes on Ashara Dayne, and like them, she never committed to any of her suitors.
Then there is Rhaegar's dutiful approach to siring children (heirs and songs, rather than brothels and bastards).
It makes for a convenient arrangement for unconventional (and apparently illegal) relationships. Rhaegar+Arthur+Jon Con were together in King's Landing as Prince, Kingsguard, and Friend/Hand. And Elia+Ashara were together in King's Landing as Princess and Woman at Court.
Very modern post-monogamy/non-traditional gender roles stuff, that. (Things Lyanna would probably not like with her one-bed-ism.)
Meanwhile Nedbert (because the protagonist of that story is Ned and Robert combined) doesn't realize that while he may vocally say he's pro-feminist, he still has conservative trappings hiding underneath which turn Ashanna off of him--like putting her on a pedestal and calling her "Jenny" and falling in love with the image of Jenny, the idea of Jenny. Reformist Rhaegar may have trappings she finds distasteful, but at least he's in love with her as a person.
I don't really see Ned being someone who falls in love with idealized old memories. If anything, he seems decidedly unromantic.
I could definitely see Barristan, Robert, and Jorah filling this role though. Notably, Barry and Jorah are both drawn to Dany, who is so much like Ashara Dayne... and who has married into Dothraki (Kavalar) culture in which politically powerful men have their Bloodriders (Teyn).
I definitely agree that at least Jaan Vikary loves Gwen for who she is, even if Jaan somewhat sees Gwen as property.
I disagree that Rhaegar ever had such respect for Lyanna, if he did indeed abduct her. Rather than love her for who she was, Lyanna would only have been a young icy uterus to use for his prophecy. They didn't know each other, and Rhaegar certainly didn't protect Lyanna from danger.
Elia on the other hand, definitely. I think Rhaegar did love her like Jaan loved Gwen. Elia was Rhaegar's betheyn, and cro-betheyn to Rhaegar's teyn (Arhtur and Jon Con).
By the way, if anyone is interested in reading Dying of the Light, the Russian site that had the text took it down but the audiobook is really good and still linked in this thread:
The picture I get of Rhaegar and Lyanna from Dying of the Light is that they likely believed they could change the world, and died realizing they were too naive about it and had drunk their own kool aid, which only will end in disaster for them.
Swap Lyanna for Elia, and I completely agree.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I must confess I haven't read this whole thread, but I was reading Fire & Blood and came upon a passage that sure seems like a wink by GRRM to anti-RLJ fans. Read for yourselves (I'm putting it in spoiler tags just in case, but it's not really a big spoiler. It has to do with Prince Jaecerys Targaeryen visiting Winterfell and possibly falling in love with a northern girl, which doesn't end up affecting the plot or any historical events in any way that I can see.)
Autumn was well advanced when the Prince of Dragonstone came to Winterfell. The snows lay deep upon the ground, a cold wind was howling from the north, and Lord Stark was in the midst of his preparations for the coming winter, yet he gave Jacaerys a warm welcome. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said, so the prince did not linger long amongst the northmen, but many a curious tale came out of that short sojourn. Munkun’s True Telling says that Cregan and Jacaerys took a liking to each other, for the boy prince reminded the Lord of Winterfell of his own younger brother, who had died ten years before. They drank together, hunted together, trained together, and swore an oath of brotherhood, sealed in blood. This seems more credible than Septon Eustace’s version, wherein the prince spends most of his visit attempting to persuade Lord Cregan to give up his false gods and accept the worship of the Seven.
But we turn to Mushroom to find the tales other chronicles omit, nor does he fail us now. His account introduces a young maiden, or “wolf girl” as he dubs her, with the name of Sara Snow. So smitten was Prince Jacaerys with this creature, a bastard daughter of the late Lord Rickon Stark, that he lay with her of a night. On learning that his guest had claimed the maidenhead of his bastard sister, Lord Cregan became most wroth, and only softened when Sara Snow told him that the prince had taken her for his wife. They had spoken their vows in Winterfell’s own godswood before a heart tree, and only then had she given herself to him, wrapped in furs amidst the snows as the old gods looked on.
This makes for a charming story, to be sure, but as with many of Mushroom’s fables, it seems to partake more of a fool’s fevered imaginings than of historical truth. Jacaerys Velaryon had been betrothed to his cousin Baela since he was four and she was two, and from all we know of his character, it seems most unlikely that he would break such a solemn agreement to protect the uncertain virtue of some half-wild, unwashed northern bastard. If indeed there ever lived a Sara Snow, and if indeed the Prince of Dragonstone perchanced to dally with her, that is no more than other princes have done in the past, and will do on the morrow, but to talk of marriage is preposterous.
Martin, George R. R.. Fire & Blood (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 6389-6391). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
So here we have a wolf maid and a dragon prince falling in love. He deflowers her, but it's ok because they secretly married first, in front of a weirwood. We are then told that this would never have happened, as the prince was known to be honorable and wouldn't skip out on his betrothed for some northern girl he hooked up with once. A little dallying, sure, but marriage? No, that's preposterous.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I must confess I haven't read this whole thread, but I was reading Fire & Blood and came upon a passage that sure seems like a wink by GRRM to anti-RLJ fans. Read for yourselves (I'm putting it in spoiler tags just in case, but it's not really a big spoiler. It has to do with Prince Jaecerys Targaeryen visiting Winterfell and possibly falling in love with a northern girl, which doesn't end up affecting the plot or any historical events in any way that I can see.)
Autumn was well advanced when the Prince of Dragonstone came to Winterfell. The snows lay deep upon the ground, a cold wind was howling from the north, and Lord Stark was in the midst of his preparations for the coming winter, yet he gave Jacaerys a warm welcome. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said, so the prince did not linger long amongst the northmen, but many a curious tale came out of that short sojourn. Munkun’s True Telling says that Cregan and Jacaerys took a liking to each other, for the boy prince reminded the Lord of Winterfell of his own younger brother, who had died ten years before. They drank together, hunted together, trained together, and swore an oath of brotherhood, sealed in blood. This seems more credible than Septon Eustace’s version, wherein the prince spends most of his visit attempting to persuade Lord Cregan to give up his false gods and accept the worship of the Seven.
But we turn to Mushroom to find the tales other chronicles omit, nor does he fail us now. His account introduces a young maiden, or “wolf girl” as he dubs her, with the name of Sara Snow. So smitten was Prince Jacaerys with this creature, a bastard daughter of the late Lord Rickon Stark, that he lay with her of a night. On learning that his guest had claimed the maidenhead of his bastard sister, Lord Cregan became most wroth, and only softened when Sara Snow told him that the prince had taken her for his wife. They had spoken their vows in Winterfell’s own godswood before a heart tree, and only then had she given herself to him, wrapped in furs amidst the snows as the old gods looked on.
This makes for a charming story, to be sure, but as with many of Mushroom’s fables, it seems to partake more of a fool’s fevered imaginings than of historical truth. Jacaerys Velaryon had been betrothed to his cousin Baela since he was four and she was two, and from all we know of his character, it seems most unlikely that he would break such a solemn agreement to protect the uncertain virtue of some half-wild, unwashed northern bastard. If indeed there ever lived a Sara Snow, and if indeed the Prince of Dragonstone perchanced to dally with her, that is no more than other princes have done in the past, and will do on the morrow, but to talk of marriage is preposterous.
Martin, George R. R.. Fire & Blood (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 6389-6391). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
So here we have a wolf maid and a dragon prince falling in love. He deflowers her, but it's ok because they secretly married first, in front of a weirwood. We are then told that this would never have happened, as the prince was known to be honorable and wouldn't skip out on his betrothed for some northern girl he hooked up with once. A little dallying, sure, but marriage? No, that's preposterous.
Quite. RLJ makes perfect sense if we completely ignore everything we know about the characters of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."