"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
But that does not change the fact that House Dayne is protecting House Stark.
All we need wonder, then, is if House Stark had also been protecting House Dayne for seventeen years.
yes, they are protecting each other. Ned, by forbidding Ashara's name being mentioned in WF is protecting the Daynes.
I tend to think the more reliable witness in this is Harwyn. He recounts what he heard in the stables (think of one of Vary's little birds), not some story made for a little lord.
As Catelyn herself puts it:
Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers.
These are the tales a young Harwyn heard.
Are wetnurses so sacred that they remain with a given house forever?
It does seem likely that Jon's wet nurse would have gone with him from where she was nursing him to WF. Then as she was again at Starfall , and called Wylla, some time later to feed baby Edric, there is little doubt that Jon was nursed at Starfall.
Whose baby would have been in need of a nurse? Ashara's.
Last Edit: Jan 24, 2017 22:48:57 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Ok so I could joke about this and say "Nedbert is real!!" or something like that but in all honesty there is a decent amount of circumstantial evidence in the text to suggest that Ned had unrequited love for Robert Baratheon. We know what a man of duty and honour he was, if anybody could be a type-A closet case it's Eddard freaking Stark.
Thanks. Jon has taken the role of being a bastard as part of who he is. Arya loves Jon fiercely and even when Sansa made the quip about Arya being a bastard too Arya got upset. I think it is very important to the story. Jon, Dany, fAegon - all grew up with less than the current lords and ladies. Hell, even Tyrion was treated as a lesser despite being the son of the most powerful man in Westeros. Their upbringing will be paramount to their ability to lead. They have compassion for the common man most of higher birth do not have.
I think that will also be the case with Bran, Arya & Sansa. They were forced out of their comfortable castles and lived and learned in ways that put them a shade more in touch with common folk.
We definitely agree on some of this. Jon's bastardy has been his bane, but I think, as Tyrion suggested, it will have to become his strength.
I think you are a bit too hung up on Jon needing to be trueborn, and I think the text itself is heavily weighted against this possibility, but I can at least agree with you in that growing up as a bastard (even if he's trueborn) has had a positive effect on Jon.
Since we don't know any of the conversations between Lyanna and Rhaeger we have to assume that anything was possible. If the marriage took place when Robert was injured they could have assumed he would or did die. One or the other could have lied. They could have been lied to. They could have considered the prophecy more paramount than the original arrangement. They could have been manipulated by an outside source (Tywin, BR, just about anyone that could gain something from their marriage). Lyanna would have been more inclined to seek the Old Gods approval. It could have been as simple as standing in front of the heart tree and since the OGs offered no objection they moved forward with the ceremony. The Ghost of Horn Hill (a CotF) could have been involved. The possibilities are practically endless.
The possibilities are endless, but the text is not.
We can imagine wedding ceremonies, drunken septons, harps and heart trees, but that does not change some of the fundamental problems with those scenarios.
Fundamental Problems:
1. Rhaegar was already married, and Targaryens have not been able to practice polygamy since their dragons have gone extinct. Rhaegar might be a metaphorical dragon, but that doesn't mean he can ride himself and breathe flame.
2. Lyanna's protest was not one against bastardy-itself, it was a protest against men who keep more than one bed. If R+L=J, then Rhaegar would literally have been keeping at least two beds. Elia died as his wife, not as his ex-wife. Thus, Lyanna would have become the very thing she had a problem with -- some girl with a child from a man with another bed.
3. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. Regardless of what ceremonies/conversations we can imagine, that does not change the fact that stealing Robert Baratheon's betrothed dishonors houses Stark and Baratheon. Thus, no "unifying" intentions of Rhaegar can be argued. The act itself is one that divides the realm, dishonors the north, cuckolds the Stormlands, and spits in the face of Dorne. It also tosses a match into the tinderbox of House Targaryen's ability to rule.
IMO Rhaegar would not have wanted a bastard either. As a scholar he knew the issues that the Great Bastards caused.
Another point of agreement.
In Dany's vision in which we see him name Aegon, Rhaegar wanted a third head for his dragon trifecta.
And of course, the Three Heads of the Targaryen Dragon are Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. Rhaegar's first child was a girl, which the couple named Rhaenys. In Dany's vision, they have a son, which they name Aegon. There must be one more... And all that is left is... a he-wolf Snow-Stark?
Doesn't make sense.
If Rhaegar wanted another head for his dragon, it would have been a female dragon head. While he may have gotten Jon instead, by mistake, it seems odd to make that leap when we have a female protagonist who was conceived shortly before Rhaegar's death with, well, three dragons.
So we have Rhaegar...who would not have wanted bastards...Plus Lyanna...who would not have wanted a man who kept to more than one bed with offspring coming from them.
They don't exactly seem like a match made in heaven.
IMO there's only 2 conclusions we can draw from this memory: 1) Lyanna did not want to marry Robert bc of his fidelities; she valued duty over love. 2) Lyanna would not birth a bastard.
If we accept Lyanna as Jon's mother we should accept that she was married, even if we aren't sold on the husband being Rhaeger.
Lyanna makes no statements at all regarding marriage. Not a one. So I am hesitant to accept that she wanted to be married.
All we know, for certain, is that she did not think that love could change a man's nature, and that she protested the idea of a relationship with a man who kept more than one bed, and used other beds to create children:
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
If Rhaegar leaves Elia's bed of blood to go bloody a bed with Lyanna, does that not make him a piece of shit? That much is open to interpretation, I suppose. But what seems clear, to me, is that by accepting such an arrangement, Lyanna would have become the very "some girl in the Vale" she protested in the quote above.
Rhaegar was the dragon. He was the only living Targaryen that could mend the realm. It's possible that his marriage with Lyanna was meant to do just that. Bring together North and South, Ice and Fire. GRRM is consistently trying to teach us that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Yet, Rhaegar is not the South. Rhaegar is of Old Valyria, which is in the East.
If Jon is the result of a union of North and South, then it seems we should look for a father from Dorne.... The land of red sands, red suns, red wine, and red hot chili peppers.
IMO Ned feels guilty for the state of the Targaryen House and his role in their downfall. It's this guilt and Jon that lead him to talk to Robert the way he does when Robert brings up assassinating Dany.
Ned has to put this away in his mind in order to move forward. He can't think of Rhaegar, he doesn't like to think of Lyanna, Brandon and Rickard. It's too painful.
Doesn't make sense. Ned does think of Lyanna. Often. Why would that be doable and thinking of Rhaegar not be doable?
And, Ned has no problem thinking of Rhaegar, and has no pain when he does.
Instead, for Ned, Rhaegar is a forgettable person. Not a painful memory.
Lyanna's protest was not one against bastardy-itself, it was a protest against men who keep more than one bed.
I see. I always took her protest against Robert to be multifaceted. A) Infidelity and B) Siring Bastards. Are you suggesting she's got nothing against Mya or her half-siblings and was just using the knowledge of Mya to explain to Ned what she knows?
And of course, the Three Heads of the Targaryen Dragon are Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. Rhaegar's first child was a girl, which the couple named Rhaenys. In Dany's vision, they have a son, which they name Aegon. There must be one more... And all that is left is... a he-wolf Snow-Stark?
Fire & Ice!
Gender may have had nothing to do with it since in the prophecy the gender is neutral. He may have wanted a girl, or expected a girl but he got what he got. Sidenote - would be kind of funny if he was the first Prince to actually pray for a daughter and get a son.
Lyanna makes no statements at all regarding marriage. Not a one. So I am hesitant to accept that she wanted to be married.
True. But if the assertion is that she would not want to besmirch her family's honor by breaking a marriage pact doesn't that same logic transfer to her own martial desires? Mothering a bastard is dishonorable.
Post by silentmajority on Jan 25, 2017 0:27:11 GMT
Lets go over this video with a fine tooth comb and you will see that Jon Snow is a Targaryian.
1st at 0:28 Ned Stark leans Arthur Daynes sword against the bed. More on this later. 2nd: Ned sees his sister bleeding out because she didn’t have proper insurance and couldn’t afford to go to a proper hospital. 3rd 1:35 she tells Ned to shut up and listen to her. 4th:1:38 Bran! What the fuck are you doing on the other side of the room! No one can see you go sit on the edge of the bed and lean in so we can hear what Lyanna is saying! 5th: If Robert finds out (...) you know he will. Promise me ned. Wait. What? That sounds like Robert would be upset about this baby... 6th If Arthur Dayne was the father then Ned would have murdered the father, and the father was a deserter along with all his men
Why would Robert Baratheon be so upset? (I like how my computer just autocorrected Baratheon’s name for me)
Seems like Robert was very adamant that all Targaryians need to be killed.It’s almost like they are saying that Jon Snow is related to a certain family with a certain destiny attached to him. Like maybe Jon Snow is actually a Targaryian.
ON top of this I am still compiling my JoNRah Theory which is separate from this post all together, but in respect to voice ’s head I am refraining from talking about it until I have completed it. It’s going to be awesome!
Picture of voice , after reading the JoNRah Theory.
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Lets go over this video with a fine tooth comb and you will see that Jon Snow is a Targaryian.
1st at 0:28 Ned Stark leans Arthur Daynes sword against the bed. More on this later. 2nd: Ned sees his sister bleeding out because she didn’t have proper insurance and couldn’t afford to go to a proper hospital. 3rd 1:35 she tells Ned to shut up and listen to her. 4th:1:38 Bran! What the fuck are you doing on the other side of the room! No one can see you go sit on the edge of the bed and lean in so we can hear what Lyanna is saying! 5th: If Robert finds out (...) you know he will. Promise me ned. Wait. What? That sounds like Robert would be upset about this baby... 6th If Arthur Dayne was the father then Ned would have murdered the father, and the father was a deserter along with all his men
Why would Robert Baratheon be so upset? (I like how my computer just autocorrected Baratheon’s name for me)
Seems like Robert was very adamant that all Targaryians need to be killed.It’s almost like they are saying that Jon Snow is related to a certain family with a certain destiny attached to him. Like maybe Jon Snow is actually a Targaryian.
ON top of this I am still compiling my JoNRah Theory which is separate from this post all together, but in respect to voice ’s head I am refraining from talking about it until I have completed it. It’s going to be awesome!
Picture of voice , after reading the JoNRah Theory.
Lmao. But as suggestive as the show might be,
Only the books are canon.
-GRRM
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Lets go over this video with a fine tooth comb and you will see that Jon Snow is a Targaryian.
1st at 0:28 Ned Stark leans Arthur Daynes sword against the bed. More on this later. 2nd: Ned sees his sister bleeding out because she didn’t have proper insurance and couldn’t afford to go to a proper hospital. 3rd 1:35 she tells Ned to shut up and listen to her. 4th:1:38 Bran! What the fuck are you doing on the other side of the room! No one can see you go sit on the edge of the bed and lean in so we can hear what Lyanna is saying! 5th: If Robert finds out (...) you know he will. Promise me ned. Wait. What? That sounds like Robert would be upset about this baby... 6th If Arthur Dayne was the father then Ned would have murdered the father, and the father was a deserter along with all his men
Why would Robert Baratheon be so upset? (I like how my computer just autocorrected Baratheon’s name for me)
Seems like Robert was very adamant that all Targaryians need to be killed.It’s almost like they are saying that Jon Snow is related to a certain family with a certain destiny attached to him. Like maybe Jon Snow is actually a Targaryian.
ON top of this I am still compiling my JoNRah Theory which is separate from this post all together, but in respect to voice ’s head I am refraining from talking about it until I have completed it. It’s going to be awesome!
Picture of voice , after reading the JoNRah Theory.
Lmao. But as suggestive as the show might be,
Only the books are canon.
-GRRM
Not anymore. The show overtook the books that means the show is canon and the books are fan fiction.
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Post by silentmajority on Jan 25, 2017 0:53:46 GMT
We also know that before GRRM would let D&D make the show they had to tell him who Jon Snows parents were, so that was a very big deal that I doubt that D&D would have deviated from.
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