This is where I think you’re dead wrong. I don’t think Rhaegar is forgettable because he played a role in his sisters death, which would have been very traumatic for him. The two are linked together. Inseparable.
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This is where I think you’re dead wrong. I don’t think Rhaegar is forgettable because he played a role in his sisters death, which would have been very traumatic for him. The two are linked together. Inseparable.
I respect your position. Heck, I once shared it.
But that statement isn't my interpretation. It's canon:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX
There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
But that statement isn't my interpretation. It's canon:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX
There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.
first time in years? really?
so what about this quote which is from the preceding chapter?
"I shall begin making arrangements at once, my lord. We will need a fortnight to ready everything for the journey." "We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned something about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did. Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion …
Either the unreliable author is at it again (shades of Bran the Missing) or the author is pointing to us that Ned's memory is akin to emmental cheese.
I think it is a case of the unreliable author. I use to wonder why GRRM finished the latter books (Feast, Dance) by mentioning 'that was a bitch'. Making an effort to avoiding inconsistencies in the (forever expanding) text must have become very arduous!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
This is where I think you’re dead wrong. I don’t think Rhaegar is forgettable because he played a role in his sisters death, which would have been very traumatic for him. The two are linked together. Inseparable.
I respect your position. Heck, I once shared it.
But that statement isn't my interpretation. It's canon:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX
There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.
I think there’s a difference between sitting down and thinking about the life of Rhaegar and thinking about Lyanna, her death, and how Rhaegar is associated with it. Something as dramatic as watching your sister die isn’t easily forgotten. I know, I know that that part is in the show and not the books, but I don’t see the show straying that far off of the source material.
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If there is no evidence of it not happening, then to assume it didn't happen is simply you wanting it to happen.
'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is a common expression used to refute an argument.
Sure, we waited a long time to collect evidence of gravity waves. I will grant you that.
But in the case of literary fiction, that statement means little to me. If it is not in the text, it is not in the text.
Else, you may as well write your own alternate-story such as 'the ww are aliens from the red comet and one of them abducted Lyanna'. Just because there is no evidence that they came from there....
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Ok so getting Frued involved in this may be going a little overboard. I don't think his lack of thinking of Rhaegar disqualifies Rhaegar.
PTSD, or some psychological disturbance, certainly occurred to me. But someone who has repressed something that big ought to show some other clear indications of dysfunction (e.g. frequent nightmares, compulsions, panic attacks, difficulty concentrating, social avoidance).
That said, I agree that it does not eliminate RLJ, although I do think it weakens it.
so what about this quote which is from the preceding chapter?
Indeed. Precisely why I included all of those quotes. kingmonkey brought this point up in his essay as well:
R+L=J (I highly recommend this essay to anyone who has not read it. Unlike so many other R+L=J theories, KM stays away from honeymoons and interps built upon speculations built upon interps. It is a very canonical and bare bones approach to RLJ that is VERY detailed, logical, and well-argued.)
Eddard thinks of Rhaegar fairly regularly. His own chapters tell us that.
But alas, I think the point stands. I'll explain why...
It is either a bit of sloppy writing or way-too-nuanced semantics. Because as both you and kingmonkey have pointed out, Ned indeed "recalled" Rhaegar in the previous chapter.
Either "recalling" and "remembering" are two different things to GRRM, or he simply made a writing mistake. I lean towards the latter, but am quite open to the prior. Just to be nice and thorough, let me cover that base briefly...
recall
verb
1.
bring (a fact, event, or situation) back into one's mind, especially so as to recount it to others; remember.
"I can still vaguely recall being taken to the hospital"
Either the unreliable author is at it again (shades of Bran the Missing) or the author is pointing to us that Ned's memory is akin to emmental cheese.
I think it is a case of the unreliable author. I use to wonder why GRRM finished the latter books (Feast, Dance) by mentioning 'that was a bitch'. Making an effort to avoiding inconsistencies in the (forever expanding) text must have become very arduous!
Here I disagree. Ned is a very reliable narrator when it comes to Jon's parentage. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he's our only reliable narrator when it comes to Jon's parentage.
And if we decide that Ned is suffering from some neurological spongiform encephalopathy, then where does that leave us in regards to all the details he's provided us regarding Lyanna and those promises? He seems to remember those quite well.
I think there’s a difference between sitting down and thinking about the life of Rhaegar and thinking about Lyanna, her death, and how Rhaegar is associated with it. Something as dramatic as watching your sister die isn’t easily forgotten. I know, I know that that part is in the show and not the books, but I don’t see the show straying that far off of the source material.
No, you're quite right. And actually, yes, that part at least is a part of the books:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard I
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."
Even after all this time, this paragraph can choke me up.
Where we disagree, is in the idea that Rhaegar is associated with Lyanna's death. While Robert Baratheon and Bran Stark make that association, Ned himself, the man that was actually with Lyanna and knew Lyanna, does not.
And, just to return to the idea of listing oddities when building a narrative for RLJ, this paragraph contains a big oddity.
The "They" (in bold blue font in the passage above) is a strike against Lyanna dying at the tower of joy. If Howland Reed had company with him when he found Ned holding Lyanna's body, Lyanna wasn't at the tower of joy. As, at the tower of joy, we have listed but ten people. And this number comes from no mere fever dream, it comes directly to us from a wide awake Ned Stark:
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.
A seemingly minor detail, but if Lyanna died in a place not-guarded by three kingsguard, that changes things quite a bit.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Else, you may as well write your own alternate-story such as 'the ww are aliens from the red comet and one of them abducted Lyanna'. Just because there is no evidence that they came from there....
Oh, I'm still there. I'll clean up the OP and post it here.
RLJ is all well and good, but Jon being a Jesus figure - the son of either the Night's King or the Great Other - makes more sense to me. Lyanna has all her Mary imagery, after all. Jon has his resurrection. Neat as a pin.
Thanks for pulling these together. It does make an interesting picture. In most of them, including the first five, Rhaegar is simply remembered for his role as Robert's enemy.
This alone settles the rape debate, for me at least... Rhaegar did not rape Lyanna.
Agreed. Except perhaps in the pre-modern sense of the word in which "rape" sometimes refers to sex without the consent of the woman's father. And I like most of your analysis here.
But memories of Rhaegar's personality, motivations, and actions do come up quite often in Ned's thoughts... They simply are not painful, emotional, nor tied to Jon Snow.
Rhaegar is usually remembered only in his relationship to Robert, rarely as an actor himself. Even if Rhaegar had no meaningful relationship with Lyanna, the entire kingdom thinks he did (and Ned may know different). That in itself should make Rhaegar more than a forgettable historical figure.
I've never managed to find any meaning in that image. This is good. Could mean N+L=J, could mean Ned's actions drove Lyanna to Rhaegar's protection, or drove Lyanna to warn Rhaegar of Ned's plans. But Ned's unexplained guilt, could be related to his role in Lyanna's death (but not only Lyanna's death).
I intend to take a look at it On the whole, I really like your analysis. Still not fully satisfied, but if I was (ever), there wouldn't be any anticipation of the next book left
But in the case of literary fiction, that statement means little to me. If it is not in the text, it is not in the text.
As any logician will tell you, absence of evidence can indeed be considered evidence of absence if the evidence at hand is sufficiently complete. When the set of evidence at hand is too limited, then we may simply be observing a lack of examples within that small sample. Thus it is far more correct to say "Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence".
However, in literary fiction, it is even more strongly true. Literary fiction, unlike good science, does not collect all the evidence. Worse, it regularly intentionally hides the evidence from readers. It may be that the lack of evidence that points to the butler having done the murder is because the author is intentionally holding that evidence back to avoid the crime being solved on page 6.
Let me give you a really prosaic example. How many times does Ned take a piss in the books? As far as I recall, zero. There is an absence of evidence that Ned urinated. Is that evidence of absence? Should we conclude that Ned never took a piss? No, it's something the author did not chose to include because it wouldn't have helped the story to do so.
Alternatively we can conclude that as we never saw Ned taking a piss, it's not in the text and it didn't happen. Ned is secretly an Other, and is too frozen inside to pee.
Actually I think I could go with that one! "Cold as ice" indeed.
Else, you may as well write your own alternate-story such as 'the ww are aliens from the red comet and one of them abducted Lyanna'. Just because there is no evidence that they came from there....
Thanks for pulling these together. It does make an interesting picture. In most of them, including the first five, Rhaegar is simply remembered for his role as Robert's enemy.
Agreed. Except perhaps in the pre-modern sense of the word in which "rape" sometimes refers to sex without the consent of the woman's father. And I like most of your analysis here.
Mrs Voice often reminds me of this as well. Rape comes from the Latin word Raptio, and raptio is more like abduction. Mayhaps I should have said "abduction" actually...
I think that lack of wrath from Ned demonstrates that Rhaegar did not abduct Lyanna.
And I think Ned's blame of Lyanna's death upon her own wolf blood goes even further to exonerate the dragon prince:
A Game of Thrones - Arya II
"Needle wouldn't break," Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words. "It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."
If Arya is similar to Lyanna, this adds even more doubts to RLJ for me. Arya did not swoon for princes, she knocked them down. Arya knocked down two princes to date, Joff and Tommen. It isn't hard to imagine Lyanna let Rhaegar take the fall for her disappearance at the same place Arya knocked down Joffrey.
Rhaegar is usually remembered only in his relationship to Robert, rarely as an actor himself. Even if Rhaegar had no meaningful relationship with Lyanna, the entire kingdom thinks he did (and Ned may know different). That in itself should make Rhaegar more than a forgettable historical figure.
It should indeed. Yet it seems Rhaegar means a lot more to other people than he does to Ned. If we look at Dany's chapters, for example, we see a much more intimate and emotive characterization of Rhaegar.
I've never managed to find any meaning in that image. This is good. Could mean N+L=J, could mean Ned's actions drove Lyanna to Rhaegar's protection, or drove Lyanna to warn Rhaegar of Ned's plans. But Ned's unexplained guilt, could be related to his role in Lyanna's death (but not only Lyanna's death).
I'm glad you dig it.
In regards to Ned's role in Lyanna's death, check these out. I've placed them out of order on purpose...
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV
Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard III
They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut. "She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher." He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur. Shortly, Jory brought him Ice. When it was over, he said, “Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.” “All that way?” Jory said, astonished.
“All that way,” Ned affirmed. “The Lannister woman shall never have this skin.”
I don't want to get too far off topic with conjecture regarding a completely different theory, but it does bear stating that Ned killed a she-wolf of surpassing loveliness ... Ned experiences profound sadness when thinking of, or speaking of, three people.
Those three people are Lyanna, Jon Snow, and Arthur Dayne. Ned feels no such sadness for Rhaegar, nor the red ruin of young Aegon's skull. Taken alone, this doesn't amount to much. But taken with Ned's lack of emotion for Rhaegar, it seems rather suggestive. /tangent
I intend to take a look at it On the whole, I really like your analysis. Still not fully satisfied, but if I was (ever), there wouldn't be any anticipation of the next book left
That's the spirit! We shouldn't want to be fully satisfied. It's not about being proven right, it's about having a nice broad conversation. RLJ (just my opinion here) has a habit of narrowing the discourse to whatever can fit into a very overdone fantasy trope. Once we narrow our field of vision to that very popular trope, we lose sight of all sorts of discrepancies and details that point in other directions.
And, like I say, it's popular for a reason. There's a reason why Star Wars reboots are so cool, and why Lord of the Rings was/is so popular. One could make the same case for the story of the son of a poor Jewish carpenter who ended up being the Messiah.
Such stories are a part of our culture, and have been for a very, very long time. They inspire us.
GRRM knows that, knows we are looking for it, and, I truly believe, he is using that tendency against us. He knows we expect Aragorn II, son of Arathorn, called Elessar, the Elfstone, titles...titles...
So how does one use that tendency to their advantage as a writer? Dangle beautiful dragonkings from one hand while hiding baseborn heroics behind your back.
And I might add that he does this not from a seat of glory, upon the Iron Throne. No. He does it while standing in the sea of warm blood that throne has spilled.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Where we disagree, is in the idea that Rhaegar is associated with Lyanna's death. While Robert Baratheon and Bran Stark make that association, Ned himself, the man that was actually with Lyanna and knew Lyanna, does not.
Though Aerys who actually personally had his father and brother killed enters Ned's thoughts even less than Rhaegar, so what's going on there? It would seem that Ned is very unlike Robert in this. He doesn't hate people fifteen years later. Now the way he primarily things of Aerys the murderer of half his family is not of a villain who needed to be revenged upon, but as a victim of the evil Lannisters. Aerys is just background to the hated Jaime Lannister now. Just as Rhaegar is just background to the beloved Lyanna.
I think the simple answer for the Rhaegar question is that he's just not all that relevant to Ned. Being the father of the boy he's raised as his son doesn't really impact this, because he's long dead and gone and not really all that relevant. He didn't even live to see that son born, after all. Ned didn't know Rhaegar, so what is there really to remember? When Rhaegar is relevant to the conversation, Ned is perfectly happy to bring the name up, but that's all he really is to Ned in that situation, a name from history.
Jon is a constant reminder of Lyanna, who made a huge impression on Ned's psyche. He's far too busy thinking about Lyanna to consider Rhaegar, who barely made an impression at all.
They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.
A seemingly minor detail, but if Lyanna died in a place not-guarded by three kingsguard, that changes things quite a bit.
That's really quite easily resolved by there having been someone else other than the seven against three. Let me explain this by parallel. Notice that there are more than two men in this scene: