Perhaps the real reason that the Targaryens practiced lord's right was to create a number of sacrifices (or dragonseed) to help hatch the dragon eggs. Think about the number of dragons that popped up between the time that Aegon and his three dragons landed, and when Alysanne convinced Jaehaerys to put an end to the practice.
I've been thinking along these same lines for a while now. It's what makes the most sense, and is likely the dark ending to the Dunk and Egg series, that Egg was willing to sacrifice his own family members in order to hatch dragons, with Dunk getting in the way & rescuing Rhaella so that the sacrifice couldn't be completed.
Perhaps the real reason that the Targaryens practiced lord's right was to create a number of sacrifices (or dragonseed) to help hatch the dragon eggs. Think about the number of dragons that popped up between the time that Aegon and his three dragons landed, and when Alysanne convinced Jaehaerys to put an end to the practice.
I've been thinking along these same lines for a while now. It's what makes the most sense, and is likely the dark ending to the Dunk and Egg series, that Egg was willing to sacrifice his own family members in order to hatch dragons, with Dunk getting in the way & rescuing Rhaella so that the sacrifice couldn't be completed.
And the only reason dany has dragons is because the sacrifice was completed. Damn. It makes so much sense.
Perhaps the real reason that the Targaryens practiced lord's right was to create a number of sacrifices (or dragonseed) to help hatch the dragon eggs. Think about the number of dragons that popped up between the time that Aegon and his three dragons landed, and when Alysanne convinced Jaehaerys to put an end to the practice.
Didn't Alyssane make that pronouncement after her trip to the Wall? I wonder what she learned up there. Maybe that hers was not the only magical bloodline in Westeros?
Perhaps the real reason that the Targaryens practiced lord's right was to create a number of sacrifices (or dragonseed) to help hatch the dragon eggs. Think about the number of dragons that popped up between the time that Aegon and his three dragons landed, and when Alysanne convinced Jaehaerys to put an end to the practice.
I've been thinking along these same lines for a while now. It's what makes the most sense, and is likely the dark ending to the Dunk and Egg series, that Egg was willing to sacrifice his own family members in order to hatch dragons, with Dunk getting in the way & rescuing Rhaella so that the sacrifice couldn't be completed.
And to take it one step further
Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons.
"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best... He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twighlights and tears and the death of kings, you could not feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."
Rhaegar's true obsession wasn't Lyanna it was dragons, and the songs he is interested in are the songs of hatching dragons
Which puts a very different spin on this quote:
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."
And finally this reveals the true nature of the tower of joy:
It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.
Why would Rhaegar have named it the tower of joy? Because it had to do with what he loved the most: Summerhall and dragons. The tower of joy was to be his Summerhall.
I've been thinking along these same lines for a while now. It's what makes the most sense, and is likely the dark ending to the Dunk and Egg series, that Egg was willing to sacrifice his own family members in order to hatch dragons, with Dunk getting in the way & rescuing Rhaella so that the sacrifice couldn't be completed.
Why would Rhaegar have named it the tower of joy? Because it had to do with what he loved the most: Summerhall and dragons. The tower of joy was to be his Summerhall.
YES.
While I don't believe that Rhaegar himself was intended to be the sacrificial Targ-lamb*** (I laid this out elsewhere in this forum as to why that made no sense), I absolutely agree that there was to be a blood sacrifice at Summerhall, and same with TOJ. Obviously I'm a big fan of "blood magic at the Tower of Joy", and although I think Jon Snow's birth absolutely pertains to that, I do not for a single second believe that his purpose there was as hidden heir/last hope of the dynasty/legitimate son of ice and fire/ptwp.
***unless of course the crackpot that Rhaegar is actually the son of Duncan and Jenny comes to fruition, anyway.
Let's take it a bit further, this time with the KG. We know Dunk was at Summerhall, and died there in the tragedy. Now, throughout the ASOIAF universe, GRRM makes several mentions of "true knights" - shining examples to the world, etc. However, it soon becomes clear that the ACTIONS of those who have said the words and even wear the white cloak are not always in line with the vows they have sworn to uphold. Ironically though, the men who have NOT taken the oath are often the embodiment of the knightly vows and honor -Dunk being a perfect example of this. Despite his being baseborn and lying about receiving the honor from Ser Arlan, he is nonetheless the penultimate "true knight". Given what we know of him, I would not at all be surprised to learn that he did indeed CHOOSE to defy his longtime friend Egg at Summerhall (that 'conflict of the heart' that GRRM likes to talk about) and do the right thing, which was prevent the death of an innocent child and save that child from the folly of a king. (And we see this pattern repeated with baseborn Davos and Edric, bastard Jon and Dalla's son, and other examples that I'm probably forgetting.)
Fast forward to TOJ - 3 KG are present, one of whom is the LC of the KG and another who is the finest knight many have ever known. These knights "swore a vow", yes, but they had also sworn OTHER vows...the vows of knighthood and the white cloak: protect the innocent, defend the weak, etc. It would be poetic irony if these venerable KG were there to do what poor common Dunk could not/would not do: sacrifice an innocent child for the folly of a royal. Even if that royal was now dead, the show must go on - they swore a vow. Even though they wear the white cloaks, they are no "true knights" - Arthur Dayne in particular, a fallen star.
We know how George loves his inverse parallels, so here's one - Summerhall dragon hatching failed because a "true knight" stepped in - a (false) knight of the KG. The TOJ dragon hatching failed because the "false knights" of the KG were defeated by those without spurs following the knightly principles: Ned and Howland.
My guess is that she is the product of a number of Targaryen offshoot lines (Velaryon, Plumm, Longwaters, ect.) that reignited the old school Targaryen dragon hatching bloodlines lost almost two hundred years ago.
Nice. Clearly, Tyrion knows a telling story regarding House Plumm and its intimate connection to dragons. And Dany couldn't help but trust Brown Ben like a long lost uncle.
IMO this is why we never hear of any living products of Aerys' extramarital liasons, why Tywin went to Lys, why Steffon went to Essos, etc - he was hunting dragonseeds.
Exactly. The book mentions rising against Aerys to put an end to the murder of children; the show has Robert talking about Aerys "killing women and babies". I believe these were both his own bastard offspring as well as others who possessed the "kings' blood".
Mad Queen Cersei surely provided a perfect example of how this could happen.
And finally this reveals the true nature of the tower of joy:
It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.
Why would Rhaegar have named it the tower of joy? Because it had to do with what he loved the most: Summerhall and dragons. The tower of joy was to be his Summerhall.
Brilliant again.
...and his is the song of exposure and burning... Mayhaps Ser Gregor did the boy a kindness.
Fast forward to TOJ - 3 KG are present, one of whom is the LC of the KG and another who is the finest knight many have ever known. These knights "swore a vow", yes, but they had also sworn OTHER vows...the vows of knighthood and the white cloak: protect the innocent, defend the weak, etc. It would be poetic irony if these venerable KG were there to do what poor common Dunk could not/would not do: sacrifice an innocent child for the folly of a royal. Even if that royal was now dead, the show must go on - they swore a vow. Even though they wear the white cloaks, they are no "true knights" - Arthur Dayne in particular, a fallen star.
We know how George loves his inverse parallels, so here's one - Summerhall dragon hatching failed because a "true knight" stepped in - a (false) knight of the KG. The TOJ dragon hatching failed because the "false knights" of the KG were defeated by those without spurs following the knightly principles: Ned and Howland.
I dig the reasoning, and love this particular possible inverse parallel, but still find it hard to believe that Lyanna and child were at the tower Rhaegar named joy.
I know a couple of folks from here were participating in the Lemongate thread at the W, but I wanted to highlight this interesting post with a spin I haven't seen before: Dany's knowledge of High Valyrian.
It makes quite a bit of sense, actually. If Dany was 1)raised in Braavos by a former Master-at-Arms and 2) wandered throughout the Free Cities where only bastard dialects of Valyrian are spoken, how did she come to know the "classic" language of her royal forebears? With a Tyroshi accent, no less? Very curious.
ETA: Here's a follow-up post by the same person going into more detail about her High Valyrian speech. I actually think this poster has hit upon a bigger clue re: her backstory than "there are no lemon trees in Braavos"!
but I wanted to highlight this interesting post with a spin I haven't seen before: Dany's knowledge of High Valyrian.
It makes quite a bit of sense, actually. If Dany was 1)raised in Braavos by a former Master-at-Arms and 2) wandered throughout the Free Cities where only bastard dialects of Valyrian are spoken, how did she come to know the "classic" language of her royal forebears? With a Tyroshi accent, no less? Very curious.
ETA: Here's a follow-up post by the same person going into more detail about her High Valyrian speech. I actually think this poster has hit upon a bigger clue re: her backstory than "there are no lemon trees in Braavos"!
It's actually a really interesting catch that Dany speaks High Valyrian perfectly when you need to be taught that and no one else really does in any of the places she's been. And Viserys never speaking High Valyrian makes it seem unlikely that Dany learned from the same source that Viserys did otherwise we'd have been given some hint that he could speak it.
Of course that also fits with Dany's backstory having all the weird ends and twists that it does that makes it unlikely that she and Viserys were always together. It's just one more clue thrown in there that there's something up with Dany
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
They might have been in Tyrosh. Sorry if this was already brought up. Both Tyrosh and Braavos have connections to the Martells so there still could be a connection.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I think it would be really interesting if it turned out that not only was the Lemon Tree not in Braavos, but that it was in her childhood home, before she was snatched and forced to pretend to be a Targaryen ...
I believe @prettypig postulated it was in Dorne
Starting at the beginning of this thread, so I am behind but wanted to second that postulation. Naming a girl Daenerys would be a sign of affection in Dorne.
That would also tie in with Cersei telling Ned about the child he stole away from Ashara- she might not have realized it, but it would still be ironic.
i don't think it's coincidental that some Daynes have Targ features. Although, who would tell Dany about this and how?
If Selmy got the story of Ashara from over hearing what was said in Small Counsel meeting, then Varys would know and so would Illyrio. Now would they tell her the truth when she's poised to take over Westeros as the rightful queen? What purpose would it serve to have here know she's not a real Targaryen? Unless they opt to put fAegon on the throne instead of her.
Disgusting as the notion is, Selmy could simply have overheard an actual rape, just as Jaime could hear Aerys getting aggressive with Rhaella.
I believe that Weasel Pie has also noted some great symbolism and patterns around Dany that fits with her being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child far better than Jon.
Selmy could simply have overheard an actual rape, just as Jaime could hear Aerys getting aggressive with Rhaella.
That's not something I've exactly considered, but the line that most say proves that she had sex with a Stark at Harrenhal only says
... might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
And I've often wondered whether that actually just mean exactly what it says: she looked to Stark. I.e she went to him. And the most often scenario that someone goes to someone else, and especially a noble, is because they're a lord and they have a grievance they need solved by the lord. And the highest lords at Harrenhal were
- Robert Baratheon - Jon Arryn - Brandon Stark (he wasn't lord yet, but with Rickard still in Winterfell he was Lord Stark there for all the Stark men)
Which means that if Ashara had a grievance against Aerys, well then Brandon is one of the best people she can go to try and get someone powerful to do something about it. And we know that she at least knows Brandon a little bit seeing as Brandon asked her to dance with Ned as Ned was too shy to ask himself. So out of Brandon, Robert, and Jon, Brandon's the one she'd pick as she already has a prior connection to him.
So under this interpretation when Ashara "looked to Stark", it wasn't for sex, but rather for help.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Post by whitewolfstark on Dec 25, 2015 14:33:50 GMT
Although I always interpreted the line that she went to Ned for help (because he was the type to help someone), I thought that Oberyn Martell was there as well. If Brandon is acting as Lord Stark, then Oberyn can act as Prince of Dorne in his brother's place. Which always made me reluctant to view that line in that manner. Why isn't she going to the brother of her best friend and the woman she's serving?
Despite that, personally, I thought that if it hadn't been Ashara had sex with Ned, it was she had sex with Brandon who did his usual "avoid fatherhood" deal, and Ashara went to Ned (or had him volunteer while overhearing Brandon spurn her), who I'm going to guess (to complete the parallel) assured her that he'd marry her, and help her raise her child. Like Sam, Ned was likely wonder struck by Ashara in such a scenario. In that moment, I think we're supposed to draw some kind of a parallel between Gilly coming to Sam & Jon about escaping Craster with her baby, and Ashara coming to Ned, with Ned promising to help her however he can--until war breaks out and she can't escape anymore.
The Daynes are stony Dornish, from what they seem, which means they have more in common culturally with the Reachmen like the Tarlys or the Marcher lords like the Dondarrions in terms of Andal-First Men heritage, etc. This might explain why she turned outside of Dorne for help.
Starting at the beginning of this thread, so I am behind but wanted to second that postulation. Naming a girl Daenerys would be a sign of affection in Dorne.
Welcome, aedda and merry xmas! I work in Fredericksburg
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones