Melisandra I'm not sure if you've ever noticed, but I just did a search of all the Eddard chapters in AGOT, and Rhaella only ever comes up during the TOJ dream. Not once does Eddard ever think about her or talk about her other than in that dream, despite discussing Aerys 22 times, Rhaegar 13 times, Viserys 4 times, Dany 7 times, Aegon 4 times, and Rhaenys 4 times.
Rhaella is the Targaryen that Eddard thinks about the least, and only in relation to the TOJ dream
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Melisandra I'm not sure if you've ever noticed, but I just did a search of all the Eddard chapters in AGOT, and Rhaella only ever comes up during the TOJ dream. Not once does Eddard ever think about her or talk about her other than in that dream, despite discussing Aerys 22 times, Rhaegar 13 times, Viserys 4 times, Dany 7 times, Aegon 4 times, and Rhaenys 4 times.
Rhaella is the Targaryen that Eddard thinks about the least, and only in relation to the TOJ dream
Huh. I've never thought of it that way:
"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."
"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.
"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."
"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
You can quite easily interpret the above as Hightower saying that Darry is not protecting the queen, they are.
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 8, 2015 15:36:10 GMT
Along similar lines to Melisandra's theory, I thought about whether Ashara Dayne may have been Rhaella's "whipping girl", who was used to satisfy Aerys lusts when he burned someone alive, so Rhaella wasn't subject to the rapes. If Ashara could cast a glamor, the theory could be possible. Which means Rhaella and Viserys' midnight flight to Dragonstone wasn't to protect them from Robert's rebellion, but it may have been to flee from Aerys. And the hooded woman that Jaime observed leave King's Landing, was in fact Ashara Dayne.
Melisandra I'm not sure if you've ever noticed, but I just did a search of all the Eddard chapters in AGOT, and Rhaella only ever comes up during the TOJ dream. Not once does Eddard ever think about her or talk about her other than in that dream, despite discussing Aerys 22 times, Rhaegar 13 times, Viserys 4 times, Dany 7 times, Aegon 4 times, and Rhaenys 4 times.
Rhaella is the Targaryen that Eddard thinks about the least, and only in relation to the TOJ dream
Huh. I've never thought of it that way:
"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."
"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.
"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."
"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
You can quite easily interpret the above as Hightower saying that Darry is not protecting the queen, they are.
I actually really love this interpretation. The dialogue is then really
Ned: Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and price Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him Oswell: Ser Willem Darry is a good man and true Hightower: but not of the KG. The KG does not flee when we are protecting our queen or prince Viserys as Darry did. Arthur: we swore a vow *The KG start arming themselves for battle.*
Someone is in need of protection at that moment and the only people that the KG have so far sworn not to flee when they are safe guarding are Rhaella and Viserys. Not Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, or Jon or Dany. They've only declared that they do not flee if they were to have been guarding the queen or Prince Viserys. And we know that Willem didn't sail with Rhaella and Viserys seeing as Willem had to break into Dragonstone and free Viserys so he couldn't have been guarding those two as he would never have needed to smuggle himself into Dragonstone if he was already in Dragonstone and had been for the last 9 months. So he never fled anywhere and abandoned any duty if he was never with them.
Now as is commonly interpreted, that no fleeing policy would have extended to any of those other people. But they've only actually declared not to have fled had they been guarding Rhaella or Viserys and we know that despite their claim, Willem wasn't guarding them so someone had to have been. Thus they will not flee as its actually them.
Of course the app says that they were guarding Lyanna, but the app is mostly fanfiction and I'm sure that's just another part where Ran took his belief that the KG must have been ordered to stay at the TOJ to guard Lyanna at some point by Rhaegar if they were never anywhere else. But I really do like this new interpretation that they are not fleeing because they cannot as they have either Rhaella or Viserys and not Darry
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I am likeing this myself and here's the peculiar thing that adds to this.
Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails..............
The above Dany as told by Viserys siad they had fled KL- the "they" we can puzzle out later along with Viserys's other accounts-So far so good right.They "fled" KL note Jamie's version wasn't so urgent it was the Queen "left" absent Viserys.
Let's look at the quote below though.
"She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast."
Okayyy from where did they run "again?"We were just told that they fled from KL and most of us thought from KL to Dragonstone because of Jamie's account of who he thought was the queen.But Dany is saying they came from somewhere else to Dragonstone ,not from KL to Dragnstone.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
1) To collect Aegon. She is his grandmother and would see to his needs. 2) To make sure at least one heir to the throne survived. If Ashara and Viserys are caught, then (presumably pregnant) Rhaella is likely safe, and visa versa.
Maybe--still seems like she would want to get out, though. Not sure how much she could do for Aegon.
But she could go somewhere other than Dragonstone. Still, I have trouble with that, too. Dragonstone seems safest, considering the state of the Kingdoms.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I was thinking about something similar to this, but it rather has to do with Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys. We know that Aerys kept them hostages to ensure that Dorne would remain loyal to the throne as Jaime remembers Aerys threatening Lewyn with them when he left to go take command of the Dornish army.
But a true hostage situation would be that Aerys would also send Doran someone so that they both would know that they're in it together and need to cooperate, as Doran can't betray Aerys without Aerys killing his hostages, and Aerys can't betray Doran without Doran killing his hostages. We see this when Tyrion sends Myrcella to Dorne, Doran sends back Oberyn. And when Catelyn treats with Walder, Ser Perwyn Frey stays behind with Robb's forces to ensure Catelyn's safety. Etc. If you truly want honest relations, you exchange someone. Yet all we hear about is how Aerys is holding Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys.
But something that should be noted, is that Aerys makes that threat to Lewyn, before Lewyn was sent to get the Dornish forces that were already assembled.
He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.
Lewyn is a KG. Does he really need to go grab the army that clearly already has a commander if they're on the march already, or is he escorting a member of the royal family to Dorne himself as a KG normally would? Why should Aerys be packing off one of his KG to go "take command" of these 10,000 Dornishmen marching up the kingsroad, when his KG is better served guarding himself and his family? He'd already sent Barristan and Darry to gather Jon's army. Hightower isn't mentioned, but he leaves at some time around now to go find Rhaegar according to the app. Arthur and Oswell are missing as they left with Rhaegar. So the only KG that Aerys has left, are Jaime and Lewyn at this point... and he sends Lewyn to go take command of an army that already has a commander and is already marching to come aid you. Which doesn't really make much sense. Lewyn being sent to go do this as a pretext to accomplish another task, say escorting a member of the royal family to Dorne, does.
Which might then better explain Aerys'reaction to the Trident
"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.
Aerys simultaneously declares that Lewyn betrayed him on the Trident, but that Elia and Aegon need to still be hostages as he's still hoping to keep Dorne loyal. Which doesn't make any sense. How can you be sure you were betrayed, but then plan on keeping Elia and Aegon safe so that Dorne remains loyal to you? You already think Dorne isn't loyal to you, so something must be holding you back. Aegon's half Targaryen and a potential heir so sure, protect him, but Elia's pure Dornish, and her husband's dead so she means nothing to Aerys anymore, and Rhaenys was a female so she's not really useful to him either. Yet he doesn't kill any of them, and still hopes to maintain Dorne's loyalty through their continued good health, despite thinking he'd already been betrayed. Yes he eventually decides to kill Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon in his wildfire plot (or maybe not as Varys saves Aegon who we'd just established was the only important one), but he held back at first. Which IMO makes sense if Doran had something over Aerys preventing him from simply killing them. And it also explains why Aerys thinks Lewyn is the one who betrayed Rhaegar, and not Doran, if he knows that Doran wouldn't have done that due to say a prior agreement.
All speculation of course, and not sure if I believe any of it, but something's fucked up between all the Darry/Dany/Rhaella/everyone things that don't add up from this time period.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Is it possible that Prince Lewyn of the KG was not sent to the Trident until after Rhaegar is killed?
No. The Dornish forces were threatening Robert's flank at the Trident, and after seeing his father be cut down, Lyn Corbray grabbed Lady Forlorn from his father's hand and charged the Dornish forces, breaking them, and killing Lewyn when his charge brought them together. Yet it is Robert's killing of Rhaegar that ends the battle. So Lewyn's death must predate Rhaegar's, as Rhaegar's death is what ends the battle and Lewyn died when he dueled Lyn.
Plus, Barristan detailed in his White Book entry that he fought at the Trident beside "his Sworn Brothers". Jonothor Darry is the only other KG if you exclude Lewyn from possibly having been at the Trident for the battle for Barristan to have fought beside, which makes there not enough KG for Barristan to said he fought beside his "Sworn Brothers". There needs to have been at least 3 KG at the Trident for Barristan's White Book Entry to make sense
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Okayyy from where did they run "again?"We were just told that they fled from KL and most of us thought from KL to Dragonstone because of Jamie's account of who he thought was the queen.But Dany is saying they came from somewhere else to Dragonstone ,not from KL to Dragnstone.
The "run again" is from Dragonstone, not to Dragonstone. The first time was KL->Dragonstone as per your first quote, the again is this second time from Dragonstone to the Braavosi coast.
Okayyy from where did they run "again?"We were just told that they fled from KL and most of us thought from KL to Dragonstone because of Jamie's account of who he thought was the queen.But Dany is saying they came from somewhere else to Dragonstone ,not from KL to Dragnstone.
The "run again" is from Dragonstone, not to Dragonstone. The first time was KL->Dragonstone as per your first quote, the again is this second time from Dragonstone to the Braavosi coast.
I initially thought so to,this is the entirety of that piece KM and i think you like me before are incorrect on that:See red bolded
"And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb(Note Jamie's accounts of who he thought was the queen leaving absent Viserys).
Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.
She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight(Author ambiguity here because we have to ask which flight and when did it occur?), while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart(wasn't the storm that hit westeros when winter returned to the land said to be the worst also?Hmm). They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.
She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast."
So the run again is not from Dragonstone to Bravos,but from somewhere else to Dragonstone and from Dragonstone to Bravos.See what i'm saying now?
In addition,which is it they ran from? When the Usurpers armies were advancing or just before Stannis set sail?
My conclusion,Dany's origin is a lie.She's either :
Rhaella's daughter not with Aerys, got on her when she left kingslanding way before the shit hit the fan.....To get away from Aerys. Or Aery's with another woman.I favor # 1.
So the run again is not from Dragonstone to Bravos,but from somewhere else to Dragonstone and from Dragonstone to Bravos.See what i'm saying now?
In addition,which is it they ran when the Usurpers armies were advancing or just before Stannis set sail?
I see what you're saying, but you're just getting a little thrown by the wording. It all makes sense if you parse it closely.
"They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then" (i.e at the time that they fled) "only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs" (the rest of the Seven Kingdoms had surrendered, only Dragonstone had not yet). "It would not remain for long." (because Stannis was about to set sail) "The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper" (knowing Stannis was coming, the garrison was prepared to sell Viserys and Dany to Stannis to gain a preferential surrender)", but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast."
These aren't two separate occasions being described in the same paragraph. The subject of the paragraph is that "They had run again", the rest of the paragraph is describing the circumstances of that second flight.
"Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb." - First flight, from King's Landing, escaping the advancing armies.
"one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast" - Second flight, from Dragonstone, just before Stannis set sail.
There's only two flights here. The first (Darry + Rhaella + Viserys to Dragonstone) is corroborated in Jaime's PoV and the world book, the second (Darry stealing Viserys and Dany from the garrison) is corroborated in Stannis' PoV.
So the run again is not from Dragonstone to Bravos,but from somewhere else to Dragonstone and from Dragonstone to Bravos.See what i'm saying now?
In addition,which is it they ran when the Usurpers armies were advancing or just before Stannis set sail?
I see what you're saying, but you're just getting a little thrown by the wording. It all makes sense if you parse it closely.
"They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then" (i.e at the time that they fled) "only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs" (the rest of the Seven Kingdoms had surrendered, only Dragonstone had not yet). "It would not remain for long." (because Stannis was about to set sail) "The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper" (knowing Stannis was coming, the garrison was prepared to sell Viserys and Dany to Stannis to gain a preferential surrender)", but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast."
These aren't two separate occasions being described in the same paragraph. The subject of the paragraph is that "They had run again", the rest of the paragraph is describing the circumstances of that second flight.
"Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb." - First flight, from King's Landing, escaping the advancing armies.
"one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast" - Second flight, from Dragonstone, just before Stannis set sail.
There's only two flights here. The first (Darry + Rhaella + Viserys to Dragonstone) is corroborated in Jaime's PoV and the world book, the second (Darry stealing Viserys and Dany from the garrison) is corroborated in Stannis' PoV.
I still disagree with this KM the transitions and clues show Dany is muddling what she remembers with what she was told.Plus Jamie's account is not corrobarated as he only sees one person "hooded and cloaked" who he thought was the queen leaving to go to the ship.No Viserys,there is a reason why the author put that there and its probably because it wasn't Rhaella Jamie saw.In a lot of cases in this book when you look at what the players think put it together.There are questions and imo the author contructed in such a way to prompt questions.Taking what Jamie said,8yr old Viserys and what he told Dany,her own memories this passage is not telling me what its telling you.So,we'll have to agree to disagree.
Actually I wouldn't say that Stannis corroborates Dany's story beyond the fact that Dany and Viserys were no longer there by the time he got there.
Stannis says that he "took Dragonstone from the Targaryens". But Dany told us that the garrison tried to sell them to Robert. If the garrison was trying to peacefully surrender by offering up Dany and Viserys, then why did Stannis have to take Dragonstone at all? He should have just shown up and they immediately surrendered. Especially after their fleet was just destroyed and they had no hope of stopping Stannis' fleet now. Instead he had to take Dragonstone, and Stannis counts it among his military victories, so there must have been a battle. Which doesn't make sense with Dany saying that the garrison was trying to sell them.
And second, Stannis said that he took it "from the Targaryens". Which Targaryens? Stannis and Dany both say that she and Viserys were gone by the time he got there. So which Targaryen did he take it from? Who was still on Dragonstone or who was still fighting? Dany and Viserys both say that "Rhaella" died birthing her, so "Rhaella" can't have been the Targaryen who still held Dragonstone. And if the garrison were trying to surrender by offerring up Dany and Viserys as Dany says, then obviously they wouldn't have still been trying to fight in the Targaryen name, and the only other Targaryen available if Rhaella's dead is Aemon on the Wall. So who was holding Dragonstone? I would never say that I "took Dragonstone from the Targaryens" if the castle no longer had any Targaryens to fight for, or weren't still holding the castle in someone's name which they can't have been if the only Targaryens had to be stolen by Darry and everyone else was dead or at the Wall.
So I don't see Stannis' account and Dany's actually really adding up
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Stannis would be correct in stating that he took Dragonstone if Viserys and Danaerys were forced to evacuate and flee. There may have been some men that thought to ransom them to Stannis, but they were saved from this by Ser Darry who snuck in and helped them escape before Stannis arrived and placed the castle under siege.
Again that would be an "if" they were "forced" to flee its not like this is a car or for that matter horse chase.They are all using ships,distance and time come into play here.Also, consider that a Storm just wrecked there get away and what replacements got there before Stannis fleet arise.
The idea of 'fleeing' doesn't apply here. It applies if you are in a castle and there is an army on horseback heading for your gates that is cause to "flee."
I mean seriously,everyone with a brain would think Dragonstone is the first place that Viserys and Rhaella would be taken...So obviously that's where they went.Does any one see the problem with that?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"