What is up with this mysterious figure? He's the only guy we know of who knows who Jon's parents are. *Someone I know* claims that there is an SSM that says Howland Reed will make an appearance. This sounds familiar, but I can't recall if this is accurate or not. This person though also believes Howland Reed is the high sparrow and the weirwood at the nightfort is an 8,000 year old greenseer. Oh and Euron= Lady Stoneheart. However this person may have been high.
I'm not necessarily disputing these ideas, but I'd like to see the evidence. I'd wager that due to Jojen's storytelling of the Mystery Knight, he probably knows Jon's identity, it seems he learned a lot from his father.
I don't really have any essays to contribute, but was curious on anyone's take on Howland Reed, so I'm putting it out there for discussion so we can talk about a fresh and underrated mystery.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Something that keeps bothering me is why wasn't Reed present to help Ned when Robb called the banners? I mean, he supposedly killed Arthur Dayne with a frog, he was with Ned when Lyanna died, they make it sound like he's one of Ned's most trusted advisors. Why would he get away with sending his two kids over to play with Bran? Why do they need to plead with him to help out via Maege Mormont? This doesn't make sense to me. Do they get a pass to just stay in the swamps? Obviously Howland fought before, he fought in Robert's Rebellion. This doesn't make sense to me.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
from what i recall, in Wot5K, Howland was tasked with holding the neck, as the crannogmen are more effective in their native environment than they are in typical battles. i also seem to recall Jojen telling Howland about his green dream of the sea covering winterfell, and that was why Jojen and Meera came to Bran, they were not sent in Howland's stead to Robb. Howland only came along in RR because of Lyanna (tourney of Harrenhall friendship made him feel he had to), the rest of house Reed didn't participate except for defense of the neck, and i think he and Ned are so tight because they are the only survivors from the ToJ. I don't recall that Howland and Ned were close before that, only after. You also don't hear any of the Stark kids talk about going to Greywater watch with Ned like they did to the Manderleys, Umbers, and other northern houses. i got the feeling that the only times Ned saw Howland in the past 20 years were during the Rebellions (king Bob's and Balon's stupidity), they are close, but seeing each other would bring back too many painful memories, so i got the impression they don't visit each other. Ned would send messengers to the neck and Howland would find them and send them back on their way once the message was delivered. (plus, my personal crackpot is that Howland is part tree like BR now...)
So, in general, i think that the Crannogmen do get a bit of a pass from the pitched battles of Westeros war for their Stark lieges. They are not knights or warriors, and it would be foolish to have them throw their lives away when left in their environment they can eliminate the ironborn invasion of moat Calin with no losses.
i recall reading an SSM that implied Howland would have a late entrance to the overall story because he knows too much, and would deflate the mystery surrounding the end of RR.
tzalaran, I think Euron = LSH was greywaterwatcher trolling me at work, but if we work together again this weekend, I'll encourage him to expound on his ideas more.
I was going to search more Howland Reed stuff tonight, but I was up until 5 am and I'm wiped out.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Post by greywaterwatcher on Apr 26, 2017 5:39:55 GMT
Yeah, I might have still been drunk. I drank like a college aged Thoros of Myr last night. I'm going to dig back into the books when I recover. Maybe Thoros can revive me come to think of it.
Yeah, I might have still been drunk. I drank like a college aged Thoros of Myr last night. I'm going to dig back into the books when I recover. Maybe Thoros can revive me come to think of it.
Lol! I think we all did. I don't know how you made it through work. I'm a double today & tomorrow & hopefully I'll have busy nights too.
Perhaps I'll take my iPad to work and use asearchoficeandfire.com to find all the Reed references on my breaks. I set all these goals for myself but when I have a day off, everything goes out the window and I pass out. Apparently, this is commonplace, I asked a couple of our colleagues after work when we went to the bar last Saturday.
I do think tzalaran has a good hypothesis, and it seems to make sense, but I need to review because I want to look at the oath the Reed kids said in the Hall. I remember we talked about that on this site in the past, thinking there could be clues to the Reed/Stark connection.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I think Howland had been doing his job of safeguarding the Neck. Making life terrible first for the Ironborn and then the Frey/Bolton coalition. I hope Maege Mormont and Lord Glover made it safe to him.
I can tell you he isn't the High Sparrow. Probably not the Mad Mouse although I like the concept in theory I suppose. Could be the Hooded Man in Winterfell.
He is probably none of these and will probably reveal himself to Jon in the next book or two with the revealation of both Robb's will and his true parentage.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
in Wot5K, Howland was tasked with holding the neck
He was tasked with that after Robb had already called his banners and been told by Luwin that the crannogmen would join him on the kingsroad, and then no crannogmen showed up.
Robb told Howland to stay home after Howland had already decided to do so.
the crannogmen are more effective in their native environment
And yet they did nothing to stop Victarion from sailing up the Fever River, docking his boats there, and then marching 30 miles to begin his assault on Moat Cailin. Nor did they aid in the defence of Moat Cailin, where the could've easily had the ironborn being attacked from all sides, hammer and the anvil style.
Then they proceed to never bother to try and reclaim Moat Cailin, despite being able to circumnavigate Moat Cailin's defences, which rest on the fact that Moat Cailin commands the kingsroad, which they don't need like regular fighters do. Nor to burn the Iron Fleet which is sitting right at the Fever River, 30 miles away from its ironborn defenders. Which is the first thing the Dustins and Ryswells do when they decide to fight the ironborn in ADWD because it's the obvious way to strand them and demoralize them.
Nor do they bother to attack Victarion when Victarion again makes his 30 mile march to his boats when he leaves for the kingsmoot. Now, with 90% of the garrison gone, they still don't attack Moat Cailin.
The crannogmen did an incredibly piss poor job of attempting to defend the Neck.
i also seem to recall Jojen telling Howland about his green dream of the sea covering winterfell, and that was why Jojen and Meera came to Bran, they were not sent in Howland's stead to Robb
It was Jojen's dream of the chained winged wolf that convinced Howland to send his kids. He stirred because magic told him there was an important Stark in Winterfell.
But nonetheless, it's still worth noting that that means that the Reeds lied when they publicly said they were sent to Winterfell to swear fealty. They weren't, they were sent because Howland thought the vision was important. He didn't give a shit about Robb, and knew specifically that Robb definitely wasn't in Winterfell, and that his kids, who aren't the Lords of Greywater and thus can't even swear fealty properly, nor did they even at least have Howland's signet ring or anything to even show that they had the authority to act in their father's name, could even swear fealty to Robb and would have to swear to Bran, who like them can't actually even speak for the King in the North as that's not him.
Howland's sending of Meera and Jojen is all just a cleverly disguised ruse.
Howland only came along in RR because of Lyanna (tourney of Harrenhall friendship made him feel he had to), the rest of house Reed didn't participate except for defense of the neck
This SSM seems to imply that the crannogmen fought in Robert's Rebellion
I'm curious about a few matters concerning Howland Reed (with a name like that I always think he should be a Blues performer) During the Robert's rebellion was Howland the only Crannogman to play a part? Did Howland fight by Ned's side throughout or was accompanying him to the Tower of Joy a one off?
No, he was part of the northern host through the war.
i got the feeling that the only times Ned saw Howland in the past 20 years were during the Rebellions (king Bob's and Balon's stupidity), they are close, but seeing each other would bring back too many painful memories, so i got the impression they don't visit each other. Ned would send messengers to the neck and Howland would find them and send them back on their way once the message was delivered.
But that's the thing. We know from Bran that Ned would send messages but never would any crannogmen come. And we know from Bran that when he invites Howland to the feast he's throwing in ACOK that Howland doesn't even bother to respond. And this is when every lord in the north, even Ramsay, responds whether they're attending or not.
Hell, even everybody who talks about how loyal and great a friend Howland is, aren't actually Ned. It's Rodrik, Robb, Bran, etc. claiming that he is. Ned himself did call Howland his friend in the TOJ dream, but he called Theo Wull his faithful companion. Theo was Ned's best northern friend, not Howland. Howland's remembered though because he survived the whole war while Theo died. And the fact that Ned can't remember Howland's face either in the dream, just like he can't remember his dead friends' faces, says he's not close to Howland and hasn't been for years. Yet we know he's tried to talk to Howland that Howland's been invited to feasts.
So Howland pretty clearly has been ignoring the Starks since at least throughout Bran's lifetime as Bran remembers, and has personally experienced, times when Howland's snubbed them.
Personally, I don't think Howland gives a shit about the Starks besides the green dream Jojen had. He lies, he doesn't bother defending his charges, he ignores them, he does nothing when any of Ned, Robb, Cat, Bran, or Rickon die/"die", etc. He's done nothing to warrant the loyalty the fandom constantly gives him, in the hope that he's going to show up and reveal anything or everything. If anything he's going to show up and be a villain from what I've seen.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I think Howland had been doing his job of safeguarding the Neck. Making life terrible first for the Ironborn and then the Frey/Bolton coalition. I hope Maege Mormont and Lord Glover made it safe to him.
I can tell you he isn't the High Sparrow. Probably not the Mad Mouse although I like the concept in theory I suppose. Could be the Hooded Man in Winterfell.
He is probably none of these and will probably reveal himself to Jon in the next book or two with the revealation of both Robb's will and his true parentage.
I mean is that the rule? If they call the banners Howland stays in The Neck? I mean, he just sent his Emo kids up with a couple of frog spears.
I need to look for the passage, I think it's in Clash though. He's not the High Sparrow, Rick was being silly. I guess Reed's dad would've been alive during RR and sent Howland to fight for him while he stayed in the swamps?
I thought everyone was at least supposed to show up.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
in Wot5K, Howland was tasked with holding the neck
He was tasked with that after Robb had already called his banners and been told by Luwin that the crannogmen would join him on the kingsroad, and then no crannogmen showed up.
Robb told Howland to stay home after Howland had already decided to do so.
the crannogmen are more effective in their native environment
And yet they did nothing to stop Victarion from sailing up the Fever River, docking his boats there, and then marching 30 miles to begin his assault on Moat Cailin. Nor did they aid in the defence of Moat Cailin, where the could've easily had the ironborn being attacked from all sides, hammer and the anvil style.
Then they proceed to never bother to try and reclaim Moat Cailin, despite being able to circumnavigate Moat Cailin's defences, which rest on the fact that Moat Cailin commands the kingsroad, which they don't need like regular fighters do. Nor to burn the Iron Fleet which is sitting right at the Fever River, 30 miles away from its ironborn defenders. Which is the first thing the Dustins and Ryswells do when they decide to fight the ironborn in ADWD because it's the obvious way to strand them and demoralize them.
Nor do they bother to attack Victarion when Victarion again makes his 30 mile march to his boats when he leaves for the kingsmoot. Now, with 90% of the garrison gone, they still don't attack Moat Cailin.
The crannogmen did an incredibly piss poor job of attempting to defend the Neck.
i also seem to recall Jojen telling Howland about his green dream of the sea covering winterfell, and that was why Jojen and Meera came to Bran, they were not sent in Howland's stead to Robb
It was Jojen's dream of the chained winged wolf that convinced Howland to send his kids. He stirred because magic told him there was an important Stark in Winterfell.
But nonetheless, it's still worth noting that that means that the Reeds lied when they publicly said they were sent to Winterfell to swear fealty. They weren't, they were sent because Howland thought the vision was important. He didn't give a shit about Robb, and knew specifically that Robb definitely wasn't in Winterfell, and that his kids, who aren't the Lords of Greywater and thus can't even swear fealty properly, nor did they even at least have Howland's signet ring or anything to even show that they had the authority to act in their father's name, could even swear fealty to Robb and would have to swear to Bran, who like them can't actually even speak for the King in the North as that's not him.
Howland's sending of Meera and Jojen is all just a cleverly disguised ruse.
Howland only came along in RR because of Lyanna (tourney of Harrenhall friendship made him feel he had to), the rest of house Reed didn't participate except for defense of the neck
This SSM seems to imply that the crannogmen fought in Robert's Rebellion
I'm curious about a few matters concerning Howland Reed (with a name like that I always think he should be a Blues performer) During the Robert's rebellion was Howland the only Crannogman to play a part? Did Howland fight by Ned's side throughout or was accompanying him to the Tower of Joy a one off?
No, he was part of the northern host through the war.
i got the feeling that the only times Ned saw Howland in the past 20 years were during the Rebellions (king Bob's and Balon's stupidity), they are close, but seeing each other would bring back too many painful memories, so i got the impression they don't visit each other. Ned would send messengers to the neck and Howland would find them and send them back on their way once the message was delivered.
But that's the thing. We know from Bran that Ned would send messages but never would any crannogmen come. And we know from Bran that when he invites Howland to the feast he's throwing in ACOK that Howland doesn't even bother to respond. And this is when every lord in the north, even Ramsay, responds whether they're attending or not.
Hell, even everybody who talks about how loyal and great a friend Howland is, aren't actually Ned. It's Rodrik, Robb, Bran, etc. claiming that he is. Ned himself did call Howland his friend in the TOJ dream, but he called Theo Wull his faithful companion. Theo was Ned's best northern friend, not Howland. Howland's remembered though because he survived the whole war while Theo died. And the fact that Ned can't remember Howland's face either in the dream, just like he can't remember his dead friends' faces, says he's not close to Howland and hasn't been for years. Yet we know he's tried to talk to Howland that Howland's been invited to feasts.
So Howland pretty clearly has been ignoring the Starks since at least throughout Bran's lifetime as Bran remembers, and has personally experienced, times when Howland's snubbed them.
Personally, I don't think Howland gives a shit about the Starks besides the green dream Jojen had. He lies, he doesn't bother defending his charges, he ignores them, he does nothing when any of Ned, Robb, Cat, Bran, or Rickon die/"die", etc. He's done nothing to warrant the loyalty the fandom constantly gives him, in the hope that he's going to show up and reveal anything or everything. If anything he's going to show up and be a villain from what I've seen.
ZOMG! Thank you for looking up this stuff! I thought I remembered something odd about the whole thing.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I thought I remembered something odd about the whole thing.
Well I did have a whole theory on Howland not being loyal to the Starks over on Sable Hall back in the day
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I'd wager that due to Jojen's storytelling of the Mystery Knight, he probably knows Jon's identity, it seems he learned a lot from his father.
He could know, and if so how much did Meera learn? I've ended up as a "show is show, and books is books"-gal, but in the "histories and lore" from 6th season Meera tells the Harrenhall-story. And she says Howland only told it once, then refused to talk of it again. Interesting as GRRM had to tell the some secrets for the writers to get the story right.
Well I did have a whole theory on Howland not being loyal to the Starks over on Sable Hall back in the day
Your lay-out over was very good! I'll have to pay better attentiont to this on my reread! So what happended at toj/Starfall? But it occured to me that it could be tied to what he learned at the Isle of Faces. Don't know a lot of the Greenmen there, but I don't trust the children. And what Jojen says of the cildrens believes doesn't add up to what they do in practice... Hmmm...
So what happended at toj/Starfall? But it occured to me that it could be tied to what he learned at the Isle of Faces.
Well I'm of the opinion that Howland is a much better warrior than the Harrenhal incident leads us to believe, and thus that his involvement at the TOJ isn't as unsurprising as it seems. And that also Howland probably faked the Harrenhal incident to begin with.
- Howland is specifically said to be smart. Yet he somehow walked into an ambush by the squires? Squires that specifically involved House Frey, the crannogmen's noted enemies, and House Haigh, the Freys bannermen that would be included in the crannogmen's enemies as they'd have been part of the Frey forces? After we're told how he cleverly got passed the Twins at the start of the story? Not buying it. He knows t avoid those houses, and had already done so. - Howland is also specifically said to be strong and skilled with a spear. Yet some kids overpower him, and a spear would be a perfect weapon to be keeping multiple foes away. What's the point of telling us these details if they suddenly don't appear when it's time to show them off? - Moreover, we see Meera rather effortlessly deal with Summer, a gigantic direwolf, and then tell us she learned to fight from Howland. Howland knows how to deal with bigger foes and to use their momentum against them. He doesn't do this. - Howland is also specifically said to have had armour and a shield. Yet neither are mentioned during the fight with the squires, and Howland is described as being bruised and bloodied afterwards, requiring care from Lyanna. Which shouldn't have happened if he was wearing his armour and had his shield. So he conveniently didn't bring them. - Lyanna happens to be right there, and she happens to be wearing a sword in public, despite having been ordered not to by Rickard. Convenient. - Howland, at minimum the heir to Greywater Watch if not already its lord, left on a voyage to go meet the Green Men. Howland is an important person, and he's going to meet important people. This requires important clothes. Yet he arrives in Harrenhal and conveniently has no noble garments, and Benjen has to find him some. - Howland somehow becomes House Stark's guest of honour when the Reed weren't even seemingly invited to come with House Stark to begin with like the Mormonts, Cerwyns, Dustins, and Manderlys were. House Stark had their guests of honour and it didn't include the Reeds. - Howland carefully watches the feast, again showing how he's a smart and observant guy. Who again, shouldn't have walked into the squire incident.
So none of that adds up for me. Combine it with
- Howland Reed fighting all throughout Robert's Rebellion, never once being said to have been injured or anything, while also being said to have been Ned's staunchest ally. Ned fights in the frontlines. How did Howland survive fighting beside Ned if he's such a shitty warrior? - And indeed he definitely did fight beside Ned and his close friends because Jojen and Meera both mention that Howland fought beside Theo Wull, throughout the war. Not just that Howland fought beside him at the TOJ. And Ned specifically called Theo "faithful", so Theo was constantly beside Ned. Again, Howland should've died doing this based off the squire incident. - During the TOJ dream Ned says that he and his men were all ahorse. Yet in the KOTLT story Howland specifically points out that he can't really ride a horse. - Also, but Ned says that they all had swords. AKA Howland didn't have a spear, a bow, a blow dart, or any other traditional crannogmen weapon. He had a sword. Funny how he didn't have one of those at Harrenhal. Funny that he even knows how to use one, let alone well enough to have survived a whole war - While many fans theorize that Ned only brought extremely loyal men with him to the TOJ, it's much easier to go over the men and realize that they're some of the finest warriors the north had... and then there's Howland, who seemingly doesn't fit because of the squire incident. Yet we know he either got much, much better in a short time before the war, survived somehow fighting in the front lines while still trying to improve and just surviving off dumb luck, or must have been competent the entire time. In which case Ned brought him along once he'd just spent a year seeing that Howland actually can damn well fight. - Howland happens to be the only other survivor against the KG, despite the other men like I said above having been noteworthy warriors. What's more, he did it while having either personally gone up against Arthur Dayne and beating him, or having done something to get the better of Dayne to have allowed Ned to defeat him. Again, with a sword of all things. That doesn't in any way shape or form fit a guy who couldn't handle 3 squires still learning to fight. - Again, Meera says that Howland was her master-at-arms. He's way more skilled than he should be.
If I were a betting man I'd say that Howland engineered the whole squire incident. Why I don't know, though at minimum it clearly got him into the Starks' inner circle after he must've been previously snubbed, but if you take away the squire incident, then your entire opinion of Howland has to change. Everything else indicates he's much better than that. The story even goes out of its way to give you details to support that idea. And thus I'm left with the notion that for whatever reason Howland went out of his way to appear helpless, conveniently in front of Lyanna, who conveniently was wearing a sword when she shouldn't have been, and thus could conveniently "save" him. Which of course sounds exactly like a crannogmen strategy.
It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle.
Just as dangerous were its people, seldom seen but always lurking, the swamp-dwellers, the frog-eaters, the mud-men. Fenn and Reed, Peat and Boggs, Cray and Quagg, Greengood and Blackmyre, those were the sorts of names they gave themselves. The ironborn called them all bog devils.
I don't trust Howland Reed at all.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Wow! That puts thing into focus. I'm a lot more skeptical of Howland Reed now than I was before.
It's interesting that Martin's muse was the dead direwolf and if I heard the recording correctly; he had the image of the dead wolf and then wondered how it came about this way; following with the Prologue. I've been wondering how these things are connected.
In Bran I, we learn that direwolves have not been seen south of the Wall in 200 years and later that the Night Fort was abandoned 200 years ago IIRC. We also know that a living man of the NW must say the words to open the gate and Coldhands, a green man perhaps, acts as the Gatekeeper.
It seems to me that purpose of the WW was to acquire a man of the watch to take the direwolf through the Black Gate. That would require a hand-off to Coldhands. So I wonder if Howland Reed was waiting on the other side to receive Gared and the wolf; if it was Howland who sacrificed the she-wolf with the antler knife.
That would be a reversal of Meera and Jojen delivering Bran and Summer through the gate to Colhands on the other side.
I think this gets into Horned Lord territory as well.
The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.
The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, whose songs are still sung beyond the Wall...but there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not. The wildlings say he did and credit many songs to his name, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him. Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliations he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story, deflowering a Stark maid and getting her with child) or because he never existed, we cannot truly say.