Post by stdaga on Jun 27, 2017 19:55:11 GMT
A previous discussion with shymaid prompted me to discuss an idea that I have had rolling around in my brain for quite a long time, since the first time I actually read A Game of Thrones, actually, so 6ish years ago.
I initially commented on it on another thread, but I don't want to derail the idea's on that thread, so I decided to make it a separate discussion and see what people thought about the idea. If you are interested in that initial discussion, the thread can be found here: thelasthearth.com/thread/1173?page=3
I have had this tin foil on my head for quite some time, but have never written about it publicly, not because I doubt my own instincts and but because I just expected to be able to join some other discussion on the subject, but I have never really seen any discussion on it, therefore never had the chance. I have searched over on the W and the reddit boards but never really found a discussion that fit my idea on Ned in the vale.
So, hear goes ...
We don't know the details of Ned or Robert's fostering in the Vale. All we know is that Ned was 8 when he went to the Vale, and that he was 18 when he was "down from the Eyrie" for the Harrenhal tourney and that at 19, Ned was still in the Vale when Aerys wrote to Jon Arryn and demanded his and Robert's heads. Jon Arryn called his banner's instead, and the rest is known as Robert's Rebellion (or officially the War of the Usurper). But why was Ned still in the Vale, as well as Robert, when they were both well past the age of fostering?
I have often had a tiny suspicion about Ned's time in the Vale, and maybe Robert's, too!
Maybe the most famous ward in the story is Theon Greyjoy, who is a ward of Ned Stark. But Theon is actually held by Ned, for King Robert Baratheon, to keep Balon Greyjoy from rebelling. Theon may be called a ward, but he is a hostage to guarantee his fathers good behavior, good behavior to Robert's crown and kingdom, not to Ned. Ned houses Theon, clothes him, teaches him to fight and educates Theon, but Theon is still for all intents and purposes, a prisoner in Winterfell. I have always wondered why Ned took Theon as ward/hostage, and not Robert himself, but maybe this is a Westeros tradition. A tradition that a loyal house to the crown will hold hostages for the crown? It would help off-set the cost directly to the crown, and also show what houses truly had the trust of the King and what houses did not!
Theon is probably 19 at the beginning of the story, old enough for a true ward to be leading a life on his own. Yet, Theon at nineteen is still at Winterfell, because he is a hostage ... and Ned at eighteen/nineteen is still in the Vale because ...
We know from the conversation in Dance, when Jon demands ward/hostages from the wildlings coming through the wall that Old Flint and the Norrey talk about the wards of Winterfell.
Two things are very interesting to me in this conversation:
The first part of this conversation that is interesting is that sometimes wards are actually hostages and these ward/hostages have been known to have "come home shorter by a head" when "their sires displeased" a king.
The second part is the question that The Norrey places before Jon Snow. A great question? Does Jon have the belly to do what needs to be done?
Let's look at the consequences of a ward/hostage situation, for the holder of the ward/hostage first. It is a great question that The Norrey places before Jon. Does Jon have the belly to do what needs to be done? Further more, when looking at other "wards" in our story, did Ned have the belly to do what needs to be done? What about Jon Arryn?
See where I am going with this?
So the first part of this discussion between Jon, Old Flint, and The Norrey talks about "displeased kings" and wards/hostages coming "home shorter by a head". I think it is safe to say that Aerys fit's the description of a "displeased king" who happened to demand the heads of both Ned and Robert from Jon Arryn. I would guess Aerys was displeased with Rickard if he decided to cook him in his armor!
Combining the two idea's presented to us with the conversation at the Wall, between Jon, Old Flint and The Norrey, we get information on wards that were really hostages, who sometimes came home short a head if their sires ended up displeasing a king.
So, what if Ned was a ward/hostage of the Targaryen Throne, held by Jon Arryn, too keep the North in line? I think Robert might have been, as well. The fact that Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's head's has always seemed odd to me. I could kind of understand demanding Ned's head, after the situation with Rickard and Brandon, but if he wanted to end the Stark line, would Aerys not have demanded Benjen's head too?
The fact that Aerys demanded Robert's head makes me think Robert could have been a ward/hostage, too. I know that Robert was already considered Lord of Storms End, but all of that is based on the crown allowing him to hold those titles and lands.
I have seen many discussions about whether Ned could have taken Theon's head if Robert demanded it, or if he would have refused. The discussion goes many ways, but most people think Ned would have done what Robert demanded. I am not so sure!
What if Jon Arryn was faced with the same choice, and instead of beheading Ned and Robert, he decided to call his banner's instead. It seems that is the point of our story where people seem to think the rebellion actually began. Not rumor's of discontent among the lords at Harrenhal and the tournament actually being a way to gather many high lords to discuss a change in leadership, not the rumored kidnapping of Lyanna by Rhaegar the Silver Prince, not when Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark, but when Jon Arryn refused to send Aerys Targaryen the heads of his wards, Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon.
Wards who are much to old to be actual wards in this story. In a SSM GRRM tells us that the age of manhood in Westeros is 16. www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1077
In this SSM, Martin addresses how at the age of 16, both Ned and Robert are free to live where they want, and to divide their times between the Vale and home, where ever that was. But GRRM is very shifty and smart when answering questions, and I don't know that I think this is the whole answer.
It just seems a bit odd to me! I mean, Robert should be ruling the Storm Lands by now, not hanging out in the vale. Yes, Ned as a second son might not have as many options, but it seems hard to imagine, as large as the north is, that Rickard could not have found some holdfast for Ned, some service in the north. Or actually fostered Ned in the north, as he did Brandon.
In our very first chapter, Ned tell's Bran:
There is a lot going on in this passage, but it seems clear that Ned intended for Bran, a younger son, to hold a keep and be Robb's bannerman, with justice a duty of the younger son, as well as the Lord. I would think that Rickard probably had the same intention for Eddard, as Ned had for Bran. By the age of 19, which was Ned's age at the beginning of the rebellion, I find it hard to imagine that Rickard would not have wanted to set Eddard up in a keep of his own, a vassal to his father and his brother. If 16 is the age of manhood in Westeros, then why the heck doesn't Ned have a holdfast of his own at the age of 19? Unless something was restricting this. Such as Ned being a hostage of the King and was therefore not allowed to hold land of his own and to remain under the close watch of Jon Arryn in the vale.
We know, I think according to TWOIAF, that Robert had been spending sometime between the vale and Storms End, but was Ned actually splitting his time between the vale and Winterfell? Robert and Ned's situations are different, considering Ned is a second son while Robert was effectively the Lord of Storm's End and Lord Paramount of the Storm Lands on his fathers death. Could that situation of Robert being an actual lord who has inherited change his situation as a ward/hostage? I don't know, but I think it's fair to address that Robert did seem to travel freely between the the Storm Lands and the Vale in the time before the rebellion. But honestly, shouldn't Robert have been living full time at Storm's End, and ruling the Storm Lands? Why did he have to battle his own vassal's when the rebellion started and he raised his own banners? Maybe some of those bannermen didn't recognize his authority because they didn't completely respect him as their liege lord because he was a prisoner of the crown?
I know that doesn't have much to do with Eddard, but I wanted to show some differences between Ned, the second son, and Robert, who was actually already a high lord over one of the separate "kingdoms" or provinces in the realm. Ned, at the time prior to the rebellion was not even his fathers direct heir, and that makes his situation a bit different than Robert's.
We are in Cat's POV when she brings Ned the news of Jon Arryn's death. She says in her thoughts (I doubt her knowledge and perception quite a bit and have come to question almost everything she thinks she knows) that Jon Arryn was like a second father to Ned and Robert, which Ned neither denies or agrees with. Ned certainly seems upset at Jon Arryn's death and grieves him, and I imagine he did feel a huge connection to the man. We know that Theon, at some point thinks of Ned as his father, too, but has been in the past very conflicted about Lord Eddard and Ice!
Is it crazy to think of Ned as a hostage of the crown, much like Theon was? In Game, Ned tells Cat that "And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."AGOT-Eddard IV. Like Jon Arryn might have kept Ned close to have the army of the north ready? Is my pot completely cracked?
Robb tried to use Theon to gain Balon Greyjoy's fleet during the War of Five Kings. I actually think Theon would have followed through with that action for Robb, but Balon's treatment of Theon altered how he acted, which lead to a terrible betrayal and the eventual loss of Winterfell and the north for Robb. Ned's father (and brother who had been the heir to Winterfell) was dead, leaving Ned as Lord of Winterfell and Lord Paramount of the North, and able to make his own decisions, which were to call his banners and fight on the side of Jon Arryn. Who knows what might have happened if Rickard had still been alive. I think that Jon Arryn would have been smart enough not to send his bargaining piece (Eddard) away, like Robb did with Theon, if Rickard had still been alive, but sent an envoy with terms. So many parallel's and reverse parallel's in this story, weaved together like a beautiful and complicated tapestry.
One other passage from the story really sticks out to be, and I think it links the idea of Ned as a ward to Theon as a ward, and both of them being hostages is this passage from Dance:
So this is from the weirwood visions that Bran has in Bloodraven's cave in Dance. It is a passage that has been hotly debated since that book was published. I only want to look at a small part of those visions, the part that I think deals with Ned and Theon and wards/hostages.
In this vision, Ned is praying that someone "grow up as close as brothers". I know many people consider this to be Ned talking about Robb and Jon, and if if they need to grow up close as brothers, then there is no way they could actually be brothers (or half-brothers), hence they must be cousins, but ... I have considered that, and at one point thought that is the meaning of this part of the vision, but ... the whole thing doesn't quite click for me.
Part of what doesn't click is the passage "close as brothers". Not withstanding that I think Robb and Jon are actually brothers, the "close as brothers" comment makes me think of Ned and Robert. Ned states several times in the text that he and Robert are "like brothers".
Here is an example of Robert stating that he and Ned are brothers by affection.
Here is Ned's own recollection that Robert was as a brother to him. Robert and Ned being raised together as wards, and becoming close as brothers.
Here is Jon acknowledging that Robert and Ned were close as brothers.
So I tie Robert and Ned being close as brothers because they were raised as wards (and maybe hostages) together in the vale.
So, Theon, is a ward of Winterfell, but is also a hostage. I think that when Ned brought Theon back to Winterfell, he prayed to the old gods, that Theon would become as close as brothers with Robb and Jon, the only two son's that Ned had at that time. Ned is young enough in this vision that he has no grey hair. Ned has some grey hair at the beginning of our story, but Ned is probably around 34-35 years old. He was 19 at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion, and probably 20 when it ended. The Greyjoy rebellion was probably 9 years before our story started, making Ned probably 25-26ish years old when he brought Theon back to Winterfell. Ned probably had no grey hair at the age of 19-20, and none at the age of 25-26.
**I know people will argue about what this all has to do with Ned asking Cat for forgiveness for and I don't think it's related at all. I think there are two specific parts to the prayer that Bran witnessed, and we don't see the start of the first part of the prayer or the finish of the second part. I think in the vision whatever Ned was asking his "lady wife" Catelyn for forgiveness for had nothing to do with him bringing Theon home (I will save that tinfoil of mine for another day and another thread). That part of Ned's prayer fades out and Bran doesn't hear the complete prayer. I don't think it has anything to do with Ned bringing Jon home because I think Ned already brought Jon home years before this prayer, although it might have to do with something else Eddard got up to during the Greyjoy Rebellion. Of course this is all based on my interpretation that what Bran is seeing in his weirwood vision happened directly after the Greyjoy Rebellion and not directly after Robert's Rebellion**
Wards (who are also hostages) growing up to be close as brothers, fits Robert and Ned, and I think Ned hoped it would fit Theon growing close to Robb and Jon.
We don't have many details of Ned's life before our story starts. Not during his time in Winterfell as a child, although he knows Old Nan's stories but he could have learned them at a young age and relearned them as his own children listened to those stories, and not much of his time in the Vale. We get a little drop of information about Harrenhal and the Rebellion, but then not much again. We know that at one point Ned fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion and gained Theon as a "ward", and at some other time, approximately five years before our story starts, Ned went to Bear Island to serve justice via Ice to Jorah Mormont. But we really know so very little, and we know more about Ned than we know about a lot of our characters. GRRM really doesn't give us much, but we sure form some idea's based on the little we are given and what we think/hope could have happened and we call it theory crafting. So my theory crafting makes me think that Ned was, at least at one point, a hostage in the Vale.
If anyone else has some thoughts on this, or if they have seen some threads related to this, I would love the links, please! Everything that I have researched on the internet seem to feel nothing is suspicious about Ned being a ward in the Vale, that he was just a regular old ward probably serving as a squire and training to be a warrior, creating a bond between the north and the vale of Arryn, or that Ned was a ward as part of a larger scheme of Lords who were consolidating to more against Targaryen rule. These things could be true, but maybe something else was going on? Have I watched to many episodes of the x-files and now I question everything?
I initially commented on it on another thread, but I don't want to derail the idea's on that thread, so I decided to make it a separate discussion and see what people thought about the idea. If you are interested in that initial discussion, the thread can be found here: thelasthearth.com/thread/1173?page=3
shymaid 's comment to me was: "Fostering probably ends at 16 when a man is grown, and he was 18 at the Tourney at Harrenhal. So I wonder how much time he spent at Winterfell and in the Vale during that time". We were discussing Ned's history, and how much time he might have spent in the vale versus in the north at Winterfell.
I have had this tin foil on my head for quite some time, but have never written about it publicly, not because I doubt my own instincts and but because I just expected to be able to join some other discussion on the subject, but I have never really seen any discussion on it, therefore never had the chance. I have searched over on the W and the reddit boards but never really found a discussion that fit my idea on Ned in the vale.
So, hear goes ...
We don't know the details of Ned or Robert's fostering in the Vale. All we know is that Ned was 8 when he went to the Vale, and that he was 18 when he was "down from the Eyrie" for the Harrenhal tourney and that at 19, Ned was still in the Vale when Aerys wrote to Jon Arryn and demanded his and Robert's heads. Jon Arryn called his banner's instead, and the rest is known as Robert's Rebellion (or officially the War of the Usurper). But why was Ned still in the Vale, as well as Robert, when they were both well past the age of fostering?
I have often had a tiny suspicion about Ned's time in the Vale, and maybe Robert's, too!
Maybe the most famous ward in the story is Theon Greyjoy, who is a ward of Ned Stark. But Theon is actually held by Ned, for King Robert Baratheon, to keep Balon Greyjoy from rebelling. Theon may be called a ward, but he is a hostage to guarantee his fathers good behavior, good behavior to Robert's crown and kingdom, not to Ned. Ned houses Theon, clothes him, teaches him to fight and educates Theon, but Theon is still for all intents and purposes, a prisoner in Winterfell. I have always wondered why Ned took Theon as ward/hostage, and not Robert himself, but maybe this is a Westeros tradition. A tradition that a loyal house to the crown will hold hostages for the crown? It would help off-set the cost directly to the crown, and also show what houses truly had the trust of the King and what houses did not!
Theon is probably 19 at the beginning of the story, old enough for a true ward to be leading a life on his own. Yet, Theon at nineteen is still at Winterfell, because he is a hostage ... and Ned at eighteen/nineteen is still in the Vale because ...
We know from the conversation in Dance, when Jon demands ward/hostages from the wildlings coming through the wall that Old Flint and the Norrey talk about the wards of Winterfell.
"My blood price, he called it," said Jon Snow, "but he will pay."
"Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it."
"None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?" ADWD-Jon XI
"Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it."
"None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?" ADWD-Jon XI
Two things are very interesting to me in this conversation:
The first part of this conversation that is interesting is that sometimes wards are actually hostages and these ward/hostages have been known to have "come home shorter by a head" when "their sires displeased" a king.
The second part is the question that The Norrey places before Jon Snow. A great question? Does Jon have the belly to do what needs to be done?
Let's look at the consequences of a ward/hostage situation, for the holder of the ward/hostage first. It is a great question that The Norrey places before Jon. Does Jon have the belly to do what needs to be done? Further more, when looking at other "wards" in our story, did Ned have the belly to do what needs to be done? What about Jon Arryn?
See where I am going with this?
So the first part of this discussion between Jon, Old Flint, and The Norrey talks about "displeased kings" and wards/hostages coming "home shorter by a head". I think it is safe to say that Aerys fit's the description of a "displeased king" who happened to demand the heads of both Ned and Robert from Jon Arryn. I would guess Aerys was displeased with Rickard if he decided to cook him in his armor!
Combining the two idea's presented to us with the conversation at the Wall, between Jon, Old Flint and The Norrey, we get information on wards that were really hostages, who sometimes came home short a head if their sires ended up displeasing a king.
So, what if Ned was a ward/hostage of the Targaryen Throne, held by Jon Arryn, too keep the North in line? I think Robert might have been, as well. The fact that Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's head's has always seemed odd to me. I could kind of understand demanding Ned's head, after the situation with Rickard and Brandon, but if he wanted to end the Stark line, would Aerys not have demanded Benjen's head too?
The fact that Aerys demanded Robert's head makes me think Robert could have been a ward/hostage, too. I know that Robert was already considered Lord of Storms End, but all of that is based on the crown allowing him to hold those titles and lands.
I have seen many discussions about whether Ned could have taken Theon's head if Robert demanded it, or if he would have refused. The discussion goes many ways, but most people think Ned would have done what Robert demanded. I am not so sure!
What if Jon Arryn was faced with the same choice, and instead of beheading Ned and Robert, he decided to call his banner's instead. It seems that is the point of our story where people seem to think the rebellion actually began. Not rumor's of discontent among the lords at Harrenhal and the tournament actually being a way to gather many high lords to discuss a change in leadership, not the rumored kidnapping of Lyanna by Rhaegar the Silver Prince, not when Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark, but when Jon Arryn refused to send Aerys Targaryen the heads of his wards, Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon.
Wards who are much to old to be actual wards in this story. In a SSM GRRM tells us that the age of manhood in Westeros is 16. www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1077
In this SSM, Martin addresses how at the age of 16, both Ned and Robert are free to live where they want, and to divide their times between the Vale and home, where ever that was. But GRRM is very shifty and smart when answering questions, and I don't know that I think this is the whole answer.
It just seems a bit odd to me! I mean, Robert should be ruling the Storm Lands by now, not hanging out in the vale. Yes, Ned as a second son might not have as many options, but it seems hard to imagine, as large as the north is, that Rickard could not have found some holdfast for Ned, some service in the north. Or actually fostered Ned in the north, as he did Brandon.
In our very first chapter, Ned tell's Bran:
Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.
"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.
"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." AGOT-Bran I
"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.
"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." AGOT-Bran I
There is a lot going on in this passage, but it seems clear that Ned intended for Bran, a younger son, to hold a keep and be Robb's bannerman, with justice a duty of the younger son, as well as the Lord. I would think that Rickard probably had the same intention for Eddard, as Ned had for Bran. By the age of 19, which was Ned's age at the beginning of the rebellion, I find it hard to imagine that Rickard would not have wanted to set Eddard up in a keep of his own, a vassal to his father and his brother. If 16 is the age of manhood in Westeros, then why the heck doesn't Ned have a holdfast of his own at the age of 19? Unless something was restricting this. Such as Ned being a hostage of the King and was therefore not allowed to hold land of his own and to remain under the close watch of Jon Arryn in the vale.
We know, I think according to TWOIAF, that Robert had been spending sometime between the vale and Storms End, but was Ned actually splitting his time between the vale and Winterfell? Robert and Ned's situations are different, considering Ned is a second son while Robert was effectively the Lord of Storm's End and Lord Paramount of the Storm Lands on his fathers death. Could that situation of Robert being an actual lord who has inherited change his situation as a ward/hostage? I don't know, but I think it's fair to address that Robert did seem to travel freely between the the Storm Lands and the Vale in the time before the rebellion. But honestly, shouldn't Robert have been living full time at Storm's End, and ruling the Storm Lands? Why did he have to battle his own vassal's when the rebellion started and he raised his own banners? Maybe some of those bannermen didn't recognize his authority because they didn't completely respect him as their liege lord because he was a prisoner of the crown?
I know that doesn't have much to do with Eddard, but I wanted to show some differences between Ned, the second son, and Robert, who was actually already a high lord over one of the separate "kingdoms" or provinces in the realm. Ned, at the time prior to the rebellion was not even his fathers direct heir, and that makes his situation a bit different than Robert's.
We are in Cat's POV when she brings Ned the news of Jon Arryn's death. She says in her thoughts (I doubt her knowledge and perception quite a bit and have come to question almost everything she thinks she knows) that Jon Arryn was like a second father to Ned and Robert, which Ned neither denies or agrees with. Ned certainly seems upset at Jon Arryn's death and grieves him, and I imagine he did feel a huge connection to the man. We know that Theon, at some point thinks of Ned as his father, too, but has been in the past very conflicted about Lord Eddard and Ice!
Is it crazy to think of Ned as a hostage of the crown, much like Theon was? In Game, Ned tells Cat that "And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."AGOT-Eddard IV. Like Jon Arryn might have kept Ned close to have the army of the north ready? Is my pot completely cracked?
Robb tried to use Theon to gain Balon Greyjoy's fleet during the War of Five Kings. I actually think Theon would have followed through with that action for Robb, but Balon's treatment of Theon altered how he acted, which lead to a terrible betrayal and the eventual loss of Winterfell and the north for Robb. Ned's father (and brother who had been the heir to Winterfell) was dead, leaving Ned as Lord of Winterfell and Lord Paramount of the North, and able to make his own decisions, which were to call his banners and fight on the side of Jon Arryn. Who knows what might have happened if Rickard had still been alive. I think that Jon Arryn would have been smart enough not to send his bargaining piece (Eddard) away, like Robb did with Theon, if Rickard had still been alive, but sent an envoy with terms. So many parallel's and reverse parallel's in this story, weaved together like a beautiful and complicated tapestry.
One other passage from the story really sticks out to be, and I think it links the idea of Ned as a ward to Theon as a ward, and both of them being hostages is this passage from Dance:
He did not remember closing his eyes.
… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the gods-wood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"
"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."
Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can' t. Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?
The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. ADWD-Bran III
… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the gods-wood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"
"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."
Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can' t. Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?
The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. ADWD-Bran III
In this vision, Ned is praying that someone "grow up as close as brothers". I know many people consider this to be Ned talking about Robb and Jon, and if if they need to grow up close as brothers, then there is no way they could actually be brothers (or half-brothers), hence they must be cousins, but ... I have considered that, and at one point thought that is the meaning of this part of the vision, but ... the whole thing doesn't quite click for me.
Part of what doesn't click is the passage "close as brothers". Not withstanding that I think Robb and Jon are actually brothers, the "close as brothers" comment makes me think of Ned and Robert. Ned states several times in the text that he and Robert are "like brothers".
"We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection". AGOT-Eddard I
Here is an example of Robert stating that he and Ned are brothers by affection.
Lord Eddard Stark sat staring at the flame of the candle that burned beside him on the table. For a moment his grief overwhelmed him. He wanted nothing so much as to seek out the godswood, to kneel before the heart tree and pray for the life of Robert Baratheon, who had been more than a brother to him. AGOT-Eddard XIII
Here is Ned's own recollection that Robert was as a brother to him. Robert and Ned being raised together as wards, and becoming close as brothers.
Pyp leaned close. "Jon, I'm sorry. He was your father's friend, wasn't he?"
"They were as close as brothers, once." Jon wondered if Joffrey would keep his father as the King's Hand. AGOT-Jon VII
"They were as close as brothers, once." Jon wondered if Joffrey would keep his father as the King's Hand. AGOT-Jon VII
So I tie Robert and Ned being close as brothers because they were raised as wards (and maybe hostages) together in the vale.
So, Theon, is a ward of Winterfell, but is also a hostage. I think that when Ned brought Theon back to Winterfell, he prayed to the old gods, that Theon would become as close as brothers with Robb and Jon, the only two son's that Ned had at that time. Ned is young enough in this vision that he has no grey hair. Ned has some grey hair at the beginning of our story, but Ned is probably around 34-35 years old. He was 19 at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion, and probably 20 when it ended. The Greyjoy rebellion was probably 9 years before our story started, making Ned probably 25-26ish years old when he brought Theon back to Winterfell. Ned probably had no grey hair at the age of 19-20, and none at the age of 25-26.
**I know people will argue about what this all has to do with Ned asking Cat for forgiveness for and I don't think it's related at all. I think there are two specific parts to the prayer that Bran witnessed, and we don't see the start of the first part of the prayer or the finish of the second part. I think in the vision whatever Ned was asking his "lady wife" Catelyn for forgiveness for had nothing to do with him bringing Theon home (I will save that tinfoil of mine for another day and another thread). That part of Ned's prayer fades out and Bran doesn't hear the complete prayer. I don't think it has anything to do with Ned bringing Jon home because I think Ned already brought Jon home years before this prayer, although it might have to do with something else Eddard got up to during the Greyjoy Rebellion. Of course this is all based on my interpretation that what Bran is seeing in his weirwood vision happened directly after the Greyjoy Rebellion and not directly after Robert's Rebellion**
Wards (who are also hostages) growing up to be close as brothers, fits Robert and Ned, and I think Ned hoped it would fit Theon growing close to Robb and Jon.
We don't have many details of Ned's life before our story starts. Not during his time in Winterfell as a child, although he knows Old Nan's stories but he could have learned them at a young age and relearned them as his own children listened to those stories, and not much of his time in the Vale. We get a little drop of information about Harrenhal and the Rebellion, but then not much again. We know that at one point Ned fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion and gained Theon as a "ward", and at some other time, approximately five years before our story starts, Ned went to Bear Island to serve justice via Ice to Jorah Mormont. But we really know so very little, and we know more about Ned than we know about a lot of our characters. GRRM really doesn't give us much, but we sure form some idea's based on the little we are given and what we think/hope could have happened and we call it theory crafting. So my theory crafting makes me think that Ned was, at least at one point, a hostage in the Vale.
If anyone else has some thoughts on this, or if they have seen some threads related to this, I would love the links, please! Everything that I have researched on the internet seem to feel nothing is suspicious about Ned being a ward in the Vale, that he was just a regular old ward probably serving as a squire and training to be a warrior, creating a bond between the north and the vale of Arryn, or that Ned was a ward as part of a larger scheme of Lords who were consolidating to more against Targaryen rule. These things could be true, but maybe something else was going on? Have I watched to many episodes of the x-files and now I question everything?