Decided to post this over on Westeros. Wish me luck! I am prepared for the nay-sayer's and doubt to pour down on me like dragon fire! Haha!
A bit late, but good luck! Mayhaps I'll take a look over there too.
I don't spend much time on the net in summer, spending that time outside is much more important to me. But I'll get back to this later on when I'm more indoors again!
stdaga , intriguing theory indeed. Robert's apparent continued presence at the Vale as a grown man and his having to bring his own bannermen to heel in order to gain their support for his rebellion always puzzled me. It never occurred to me that Ned and Robert might have been hostages but your observations do open up the possibility that this might have been the case. I cannot provide any further arguments in favor at the moment but can offer some thoughts on Ned's comments regarding the murder of children.
Another comment that Ned makes when talking to Robert is about murdering children, and that seems very important in the events that lead up to the start of the rebellion.
"Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children … it would be vile … unspeakable …" AGOT-Eddard II
"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?" AGOT-Eddard VIII
His quote clearly refers to a time before the rebellion. We also know he fell out with Robert over the murder of Rhaegar's children and later resigned his position as Hand over the intended assassination of Daenerys and her unborn child. Ned felt very strongly about this. This is where I begin to speculate on how invested Aerys was in the promised prince prophecy and what he might have been up to during his reign.
We know Aerys had affairs with other women, possibly including his own wife's ladies in waiting. They are said to have been short-lived, but short-lived or no, any one of these could have ended up in a pregnancy and birth of a bastard child. We never get a mention of any bastard child born to Aerys, however - this is rather odd.
At some point Aerys becomes interested in the production of wildfire, the making of which is a secret known only to the alchemist pyromancers he surrounds himself with. It's also a very difficult process that takes time, involving magic and spells. From Hallyn, we learn that the process of making it has suddenly become much easier and he asks Tyrion if there are any dragons around, dragons being somehow connected to the revival of magic in the world. We also know that followers of the red god believe that king's blood can wake dragons from stone and it is rumoured that the crafting of Valyrian Steel involves child sacrifices. So, perhaps king's blood also "wakes wildfire," or contributes to its potency. I think you see what I'm getting at here.
Aerys himself believed he would rise as a dragon in the great fire he planned for King's Landing in the event of him losing the war. It seems to me that Aerys was very obsessed with the prophecy, the first inkling of this being his quest for a suitable bride for Rhaegar which involved him sending Steffon Baratheon as far as Volantis, a place where one might be more likely to find persons with the blood of the dragon.
Could it be that Aerys sacrificed his bastard children for the production of wildfire and that this was known to a select few in his circle? Perhaps even amongst the nobility? Varys would have known. Could Aerys in his madness have gone as far as sacrificing baby Aegon as part of a last ditch move in his endeavor to become a dragon? Is this why Varys switched babies in advance? If he did do it, he must have done so in advance since there would have hardly been time for such a last-minute plan and if he did, he must have had a good reason for doing so before things came to a head.
Melisandre's arc offers enough parallels to such a scenario and even Stannis succumbs to her demands for kingsblood. Jon switches babies to prevent such a thing from happening and Davos saves Edric by having him spirited away. We see that Robert Baratheon's bastard children were looked after to some extent. Edric Storm was with Renly. He received Name Day presents from his father, but these were actually arranged by Varys. Mya Stone was brought up at the Vale, Gendry placed with Tobo Motte. Barra in LF's brothel. Was this Varys work or Jon Arryn's, tring to keep tabs on Robert's children to ensure their safety, just in case? But then it does happen and we are led to believe that Cersei organized the killing of Robert's bastards. In the show it is Joffery who gives the order. I'm not sure of the timeline here but seem to recall that baby Barra's killing happened in the same time-frame as the sudden ease with which the alchemists suddenly experienced greater ease regarding the production of wildfire. Barra did have kingsblood, Targaryen blood, through Robert.
So this is speculation with no hard facts and while it does not explain why Robert and Ned could have been hostages, it does offer an explanation for Ned' statement. Many highborn ladies waited on Rhaella, including Ashara Dayne and Joanna Lannister. If any of these bore Aerys' children and were required to relinquish them for a sacrifice, it would have caused much consternation and dissent among the relatives of the ladies and one more reason for certain nobles to band together to eventually end the rule of the mad king. The story of Ashara committing suicide would also make much more sense. In fact, if Tyrion is indeed Aerys son, and Tywin knew or suspected this, I imagine he would have acknowledged the child to prevent him from being sacrificed - for the sake of his beloved Joanna, whom he loved very much.
And now to stretch things even further: we never hear anything of Lord Rickard's wife. There are absolutely no clues on whatever happened to her. We don't even know if she died at Winterfell, perhaps in childbirth. But what if she was one of Rhaella's high born ladies in waiting? What if she suffered the fate painted above? What if Aerys demanded Ned as a hostage to Rickard's "good behaviour" after the possible rape and death of his wife, perhaps even the sacrifice of a child? What if Brandon knew of his mother's fate so that the thought of Lyanna being kidnapped by Rhaegar enraged him so much that it drove him to rash and immediate action? And what if Brandon's storming to King's Landing to demand Rhaegar's death presented Aerys with the perfect opportunity to remove the threat Lord Rickard presented once and for all? I always thought it a bit over the top that Rickard went to King's Landing with 2 to 3 hundred retainers. Why make such a strong showing if the aim was to negotiate for the life of his son? What did he have to fear?
So plenty of speculation and what ifs. We simply don't have enough information but who knows, perhaps there are more clues in the text we haven't yet considered.
Interesting speculation, evolett ! When I first read that statement from Ned all I could think was "What?!? Murder of what children!?!" It clearly was a cause in the rebellion, not something that happened during, in the conclution or in the aftermath. As always, I haven't had time to look that much into this either (got the books back in march, so I'm woefully behind many readers and feel I have too much to catch up on, LOL!) but it's interesting what you point to! Just a few comments here:
Robert's apparent continued presence at the Vale as a grown man and his having to bring his own bannermen to heel in order to gain their support for his rebellion always puzzled me.
Yup! Although the real emphasis might be on Ned in this hostage situation, the thought of Robert just hanging around under Arryn's nose is off. Arryn seems like a more stern sort of guy and contious of the responsibilities of a Great Lord, so him just letting Robert drinking and whoring around the Vale after becoming of age... Wouldn't that reflect badly on not only Robert, but on Arryn too? Not the best way to gain the respect of ones bannermen, that's for sure! Hanging around at court is one thing, but in another part of the country than the one you are supposed to administrate?
At some point Aerys becomes interested in the production of wildfire, the making of which is a secret known only to the alchemist pyromancers he surrounds himself with. It's also a very difficult process that takes time, involving magic and spells. From Hallyn, we learn that the process of making it has suddenly become much easier and he asks Tyrion if there are any dragons around, dragons being somehow connected to the revival of magic in the world. We also know that followers of the red god believe that king's blood can wake dragons from stone and it is rumoured that the crafting of Valyrian Steel involves child sacrifices. So, perhaps king's blood also "wakes wildfire," or contributes to its potency. I think you see what I'm getting at here.
Hmmm, King Scab came to mind here... Was it really the throne he cut himself on? Or all of the time?
And now to stretch things even further: we never hear anything of Lord Rickard's wife.
I remember seeing an SSM where he got asked about her, before the World book came out, and he basically just said something like "She was Lady Stark. She died." Nothing more. So I'm not sure if she plays much into this. I like the line of thought, though!
What if Brandon knew of his mother's fate so that the thought of Lyanna being kidnapped by Rhaegar enraged him so much that it drove him to rash and immediate action? And what if Brandon's storming to King's Landing to demand Rhaegar's death presented Aerys with the perfect opportunity to remove the threat Lord Rickard presented once and for all? I always thought it a bit over the top that Rickard went to King's Landing with 2 to 3 hundred retainers. Why make such a strong showing if the aim was to negotiate for the life of his son? What did he have to fear?
I find this odd too! As for Brandon acting rash, considering the time he would need to get to KL I doubt it was rash at all. Unless he was practically just outside the city walls, he had plenty of time to cool off. And I find it hard to believe that none of his companions would be able to talk him down during a long ride. Was Arryn's heir one of them? Can't remember off the top of my head. But if so, I doubt he would be so intimidated as a bannerman or squre might be. And Rikard, even if he and his men were on their way to Brandon's wedding, why bring all your men into the city of an unstable king?
I remember seeing an SSM where he got asked about her, before the World book came out, and he basically just said something like "She was Lady Stark. She died." Nothing more. So I'm not sure if she plays much into this. I like the line of thought, though!
There're lots of things GM does not divulge any information on. I find it odd that we have no info on her at all. We know a little about Rickard, Lyanna and Brandon from Ned's own point of view, from Jamie's and Meera's accounts, but nothing whatsoever of Lady Stark. Neither do any other characters have anything to say about her, not even Lady Dustin, who must have known her. Strange.
I wrote this on the fly, from my knowledge of the story but there are indeed many parallels to the ideas in the books. Craster sacrifices his babies to the Others. Jon finds out that LC Mormont is aware of this and is upset that this practice is condoned by the NW. Jon switching Mance's baby is often interpreted in terms of his parentage, but the point is, he switches the babies to prevent one with kingsblood from being burned as a sacrifice. Varys hates magic because he was a victim of it. Maybe he dared not intervene in respect of the bastard children but if he so much as suspected that baby Aegon might be in danger, it would explain his motives for switching babies to save the child. Elia and her children were being held hostage by Aerys.
When Varys kills Kevan Lannister, he says the following:
The eunuch set the crossbow down. “Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”
For the children. What does he mean by this? I think some more digging is in order.
There're lots of things GM does not divulge any information on. I find it odd that we have no info on her at all. We know a little about Rickard, Lyanna and Brandon from Ned's own point of view, from Jamie's and Meera's accounts, but nothing whatsoever of Lady Stark. Neither do any other characters have anything to say about her, not even Lady Dustin, who must have known her. Strange.
True, he can be very tight lipped, and rightley so. Yes, it's stange! My first thought is that she died young - no matter the cause of her death. (Note: I haven't read the World book yet, so any info there I'm quite possibly ignorant of.) If so, very few of our in-book characters would know much of her. Including if she had any impact on the rebellion to come. Considering how tight lipped Ned was regarding anything that happened during this period, it stand to reason that this would be a closely kept secret. It could also be a very good reason for Aerys to keep Rikard on a tight leash, by placing Ned in fostering.
I wrote this on the fly, from my knowledge of the story but there are indeed many parallels to the ideas in the books. Craster sacrifices his babies to the Others. Jon finds out that LC Mormont is aware of this and is upset that this practice is condoned by the NW. Jon switching Mance's baby is often interpreted in terms of his parentage, but the point is, he switches the babies to prevent one with kingsblood from being burned as a sacrifice.
Good point! Also, IIRC Ned thinks he's no stranger to cooperating with people he despises when he desides to work with LF. Could he have had a hand in hiding Aegon? I'm one of those who suspect a baby-gate scenario at the end of the rebellion, by the way.
Varys hates magic because he was a victim of it. Maybe he dared not intervene in respect of the bastard children but if he so much as suspected that baby Aegon might be in danger, it would explain his motives for switching babies to save the child. Elia and her children were being held hostage by Aerys.
When Varys kills Kevan Lannister, he says the following:
The eunuch set the crossbow down. “Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”
For the children. What does he mean by this?
Ah, that's right! Been a while since I read that. He's a slippery one, Varys!
The Lord of the Dreadfort paid the chatter no mind, Catelyn saw. Sometimes he tasted a bite of this, a spoon of that, tearing bread from the loaf with short strong fingers, but the meal could not distract him. Bolton had made a toast to Lord Walder's grandsons when the wedding feast began, pointedly mentioning that Walder and Walder were in the care of his bastard son. From the way the old man had squinted at him, his mouth sucking at the air, Catelyn knew he had heard the unspoken threat.Catelyn VII, SoS
I found it interesting considering that Bolton and Frey are just about to kill off the Starks together, and still Bolton made the threat. Granted, both knew the other for a turncloack but still... While Ned & Robert might not be right out hostages, those who hold wards certainly has potential power to bend the parent to his will!
Honestly haven't looked at this thread in well over a month, and it's seems I have missed some activity. Sorry to those who posted; I didn't mean not to respond. I am going to sit down with some coffee and catch up!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
A bit late, but good luck! Mayhaps I'll take a look over there too.
My Westeros thread wasn't the disaster it could have been, since I am aware this is high density tinfoil I am shaping here. People were not nearly as mean as they could have been overall, and some people had some interesting comments to make.
I don't spend much time on the net in summer, spending that time outside is much more important to me. But I'll get back to this later on when I'm more indoors again!
I spend plenty of time on the internet all year long, but I haven't really posted on much here or at the W since the Season 7 was aired. Thank the good lord I can put that past me now! Get back to some book tinfoil instead of show fan fiction!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , intriguing theory indeed. Robert's apparent continued presence at the Vale as a grown man and his having to bring his own bannermen to heel in order to gain their support for his rebellion always puzzled me. It never occurred to me that Ned and Robert might have been hostages but your observations do open up the possibility that this might have been the case.
Thank you! I really have always felt it was odd that both Ned and Robert were just hanging out in the Vale, long past when the age of fostering had passed them. If Ned had nothing going on as a second son, Robert for certain should have been at Storm's End and ruling the Storm Lands.
That idea, and some of the wording has felt odd to me for a long time, and this idea has been rattling around in my brain for years now. Who knows if it correct, but it has been interesting for me to explore it more fully.
His quote clearly refers to a time before the rebellion. We also know he fell out with Robert over the murder of Rhaegar's children and later resigned his position as Hand over the intended assassination of Daenerys and her unborn child. Ned felt very strongly about this. This is where I begin to speculate on how invested Aerys was in the promised prince prophecy and what he might have been up to during his reign.
The "murder of children" comment by Ned to Robert is indeed a mystery. It stood out to me on my very first read, but I have never been able to determine what children Ned was talking about. I have before thought maybe it had something to do with murder of Darklyn children at Duskendale, but I don't think either Ned or Robert ever talk about the Defiance (it's that word again) of Duskendale, and it makes me think the child they are referring to is something else entirely.
And it certainly seems to have come well before Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn rose up in rebellion against the throne. It implies it was one of the reason they rose up in rebellion, so it's important! And just by the wording, it seem's this comment is either directed directly to Aerys, or at least the Targaryen's reign of that time.
We know Aerys had affairs with other women, possibly including his own wife's ladies in waiting. They are said to have been short-lived, but short-lived or no, any one of these could have ended up in a pregnancy and birth of a bastard child. We never get a mention of any bastard child born to Aerys, however - this is rather odd.
I agree it is odd that Aerys had no bastards that we know about. I have actually speculated about Ashara Dayne being one of them, based entirely on her purple/violet eyes and her beauty, and and maybe Darkstar, also based on eye color and his handsomeness. Targaryens do seem to be almost unbelievably beautiful. But Edric Dayne has those eyes too, and he is too young to be a Targaryen bastard, so that is probably a clue that eye color and the beauty isn't everything.
But I agree it's odd that we don't know if Aerys had any bastards. We know from multiple pregnancies of Rhaella, that he and she were both fertile. There is no reason to think he didn't have children outside of his marriage bed. Both Tyrion and the incest twins are candidates.
At some point Aerys becomes interested in the production of wildfire, the making of which is a secret known only to the alchemist pyromancers he surrounds himself with. It's also a very difficult process that takes time, involving magic and spells. From Hallyn, we learn that the process of making it has suddenly become much easier and he asks Tyrion if there are any dragons around, dragons being somehow connected to the revival of magic in the world. We also know that followers of the red god believe that king's blood can wake dragons from stone and it is rumoured that the crafting of Valyrian Steel involves child sacrifices. So, perhaps king's blood also "wakes wildfire," or contributes to its potency. I think you see what I'm getting at here.
Aerys himself believed he would rise as a dragon in the great fire he planned for King's Landing in the event of him losing the war. It seems to me that Aerys was very obsessed with the prophecy, the first inkling of this being his quest for a suitable bride for Rhaegar which involved him sending Steffon Baratheon as far as Volantis, a place where one might be more likely to find persons with the blood of the dragon.
Could it be that Aerys sacrificed his bastard children for the production of wildfire and that this was known to a select few in his circle? Perhaps even amongst the nobility? Varys would have known. Could Aerys in his madness have gone as far as sacrificing baby Aegon as part of a last ditch move in his endeavor to become a dragon? Is this why Varys switched babies in advance? If he did do it, he must have done so in advance since there would have hardly been time for such a last-minute plan and if he did, he must have had a good reason for doing so before things came to a head.
We know that Aerys seemed "madder" as the years went on, and really took a turn for the worse after Duskendale. I have to tell you though, I never really thought of Aerys being obsessed with tPtwP prophecy, but it makes sense. I think that most Targaryen's must know about it, and some do what they can to bring it about (Rhaegar, Aegon V, maybe Aerys) while others do what they can to keep it from happening (I am thinking of Baelor and his refusal to have children with his sister-wife).
Chilling idea to think of Aerys sacrificing bastards, if he had them. It also makes a person wonder about some of his true-born children with Rhaella who didn't live long. His bastards would have only half the blood of the dragon, but his trueborn children would be all dragon blood! Lot's of magic in that!
I had read a theory in the past, that named Darkstar as possibly the real Viserys. It had the hints of tinfoil that I enjoy, but Darkstar has that streak of black hair, and both Rhaella and Aerys were silver haired, pure Targaryen in their looks. But, maybe Rhaella knew that Aerys could be harming her babies and she snuck them out of Kings Landing. I think the women of our story are always at work, some carring at sword like Arya and Brienne, but others working behind the scene, subtly, like the Queen of Thornes, or maybe Rhaella Targaryen. And the majority of them are much smarter and more subtle than Cersei!
You do bring up a good point on why Varys might have felt like he needed to get baby Aegon out of Kings Landing long before the rebels were marching on the gates! Could it be to save him from Aerys madness? That makes more sense than just trying to protect the infant prince from rebels, although, with Tywin's men getting to the Red Keep first, that would prove to be a fortuitous action. If Ned or Jon Arryn arrived first, no doubt those children and Elia would still be alive. Robert is a wild card for me, because while I think he was relieved those babies were dead, I don't know if he could have given the order while looking at them, and I don't think he could have done it himself. Maybe I give Robert more credit than I should?
Melisandre's arc offers enough parallels to such a scenario and even Stannis succumbs to her demands for kingsblood.
I never once thought much of similarities between Aerys and Melisandre, except I have thought that Aerys would have certainly fallen for Mel's religious preaching. But they are alike in one significant way- they both have no problem burning people alive. One for religion, the other for enjoyment, but both have aspects of magic with the action and the outcome is still the same. Death!
I'm not sure of the timeline here but seem to recall that baby Barra's killing happened in the same time-frame as the sudden ease with which the alchemists suddenly experienced greater ease regarding the production of wildfire. Barra did have kingsblood, Targaryen blood, through Robert.
Interesting connection to the death of Robert's bastards. I have always attributed the rise of magic to the birth of Dany's dragons, which is probably what we are supposed to think, but maybe the truth is something else entirely. Could we include Robert's death as part of this too? Cersei certainly organized his death, and his death could be viewed as a blood sacrifice of a sort.
I have speculated that Ned was the sacrifice that mattered, because he too has kings blood. His kings blood is of ice, however, and not of fire, but the juxtaposition is interesting to me. A sacrifice of ice to make the fire more potent, or a sacrifice of fire to make the ice stronger!
So this is speculation with no hard facts and while it does not explain why Robert and Ned could have been hostages, it does offer an explanation for Ned' statement.
It is a interesting approach to explaining Ned's comment to Robert, and I like the implications. There is certainly something that we are missing from the story to explain it, so the clues haven't been given to us, or they have and they are right in our face, and we just need to weed them out. Maybe you have!
And now to stretch things even further: we never hear anything of Lord Rickard's wife. There are absolutely no clues on whatever happened to her. We don't even know if she died at Winterfell, perhaps in childbirth. But what if she was one of Rhaella's high born ladies in waiting? What if she suffered the fate painted above? What if Aerys demanded Ned as a hostage to Rickard's "good behaviour" after the possible rape and death of his wife, perhaps even the sacrifice of a child? What if Brandon knew of his mother's fate so that the thought of Lyanna being kidnapped by Rhaegar enraged him so much that it drove him to rash and immediate action? And what if Brandon's storming to King's Landing to demand Rhaegar's death presented Aerys with the perfect opportunity to remove the threat Lord Rickard presented once and for all? I always thought it a bit over the top that Rickard went to King's Landing with 2 to 3 hundred retainers. Why make such a strong showing if the aim was to negotiate for the life of his son? What did he have to fear?
I have always been struck by the lack of information about Rickard Stark's wife. It is most certainly a purposeful omission by our author, not an accidental one. We only know her name because of the World Book and I really think it's odd. Lyarra, if that's her real name, Stark is important to our story, just a gut feeling. Other notable missing characters to me is the Dayne lord, Ashara and Arthur's elder brother, the father of Edric. It's super weird to me that he get's no mention but there is a ton of mystery about him. he is important, too. GRRM gives us immense detail on certain characters, certain family trees, food and clothing, but no mention of the mother of Ned and Lyanna Stark? There is something important we don't know yet!
I do like the possibility that this could be a link to why Ned's could have been a hostage in the vale. Maybe Lyarra could only return north if another Stark hostage took her place, and that hostage became Ned. Maybe Rickard said no to Ned going to Kings Landing, but agreed to Ned being sent to a more neutral location? Maybe Ned doesn't think of his mother ever because he really never knew her. They could have been apart much of the time. Although, Ned doesn't think of Rickard much either!
I guess it's possible that Ned's mother could have been a lady in waiting to Rhaella, and was forced to be Aerys' lover and bore him a child who was sacrificed. There is nothing in the text that denies the possibility, and I always think that in these books almost anything is possible, so why not at least speculate about it some. Doesn't hurt to ask questions!
Thanks for giving me some things to think about!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Yup! Although the real emphasis might be on Ned in this hostage situation, the thought of Robert just hanging around under Arryn's nose is off. Arryn seems like a more stern sort of guy and contious of the responsibilities of a Great Lord, so him just letting Robert drinking and whoring around the Vale after becoming of age... Wouldn't that reflect badly on not only Robert, but on Arryn too? Not the best way to gain the respect of ones bannermen, that's for sure! Hanging around at court is one thing, but in another part of the country than the one you are supposed to administrate?
Ah, you stated this very well, and I appreciate it!
I remember seeing an SSM where he got asked about her, before the World book came out, and he basically just said something like "She was Lady Stark. She died." Nothing more. So I'm not sure if she plays much into this. I like the line of thought, though!
This comment has always made me so suspicious of GRRM about the mother of Ned and Lyanna and Brandon and Benjen! She was Lady Stark and she died! Nope, I don't buy it at all. GRRM put's too much into his character development and connections to just blow off any real history about Eddard Stark's mother! Nope! Don't buy it! He is hiding something from us!
There're lots of things GM does not divulge any information on. I find it odd that we have no info on her at all. We know a little about Rickard, Lyanna and Brandon from Ned's own point of view, from Jamie's and Meera's accounts, but nothing whatsoever of Lady Stark. Neither do any other characters have anything to say about her, not even Lady Dustin, who must have known her. Strange.
I wrote this on the fly, from my knowledge of the story but there are indeed many parallels to the ideas in the books. Craster sacrifices his babies to the Others. Jon finds out that LC Mormont is aware of this and is upset that this practice is condoned by the NW. Jon switching Mance's baby is often interpreted in terms of his parentage, but the point is, he switches the babies to prevent one with kingsblood from being burned as a sacrifice. Varys hates magic because he was a victim of it. Maybe he dared not intervene in respect of the bastard children but if he so much as suspected that baby Aegon might be in danger, it would explain his motives for switching babies to save the child. Elia and her children were being held hostage by Aerys.
I have often felt that there was at least one baby switch during the time of the rebellion, and I don't think Jon Snow was one of those babies. I think just like you stated, he orchestrated a baby swap to help save a life, and I think Ned was responsible for at least one baby swap in the past, but that did not include Jon as a baby, although many people will disagree with that. We are seeing part of Ned's past through Jon's story, and the baby swap is a parallel as far as I am concerned. Neither swapped a child of their own blood!
I have to tear myself from the internet and my coffee to go feed my horses before they throw a huge fit in the pasture, but I will return and look over the rest of the posts. All very interesting so far!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
My Westeros thread wasn't the disaster it could have been, since I am aware this is high density tinfoil I am shaping here. People were not nearly as mean as they could have been overall, and some people had some interesting comments to make.
I actually took a peak there last week I think. It wasn't that bad, but still it was a good example of why I never bothered getting an acount there. I don't have the patience to have an hominem discussions...
I spend plenty of time on the internet all year long, but I haven't really posted on much here or at the W since the Season 7 was aired. Thank the good lord I can put that past me now! Get back to some book tinfoil instead of show fan fiction!
Haha! I've started to live by "inside 6 months, outside 6 months" a few years ago. I spend too much time indoors during winter that I try to compensate in summer. And I never warmed to using my phone as a computer, for the simple reason that the screen is too small! It seems like you got the finale out of your system? Sometimes you just have to rant! Book-tinfoil is much more satisfying!
And it certainly seems to have come well before Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn rose up in rebellion against the throne. It implies it was one of the reason they rose up in rebellion, so it's important! And just by the wording, it seem's this comment is either directed directly to Aerys, or at least the Targaryen's reign of that time.
My strong feeling reading that was that it was either the main reason given to rebell, or very close to it. I'd gotten some history and theories re: RR under my belt before I got the books (but not that much) and was floored as none of them mentioned that and the rebellion. Why would many just pass this by? It might be something long standing (rumor, questionable behaviour, etc), but something definitely happened during Aerys' reign! Combined with his other sadistic behaviour it was something that was the final straw, or close to it.
We know that Aerys seemed "madder" as the years went on, and really took a turn for the worse after Duskendale. I have to tell you though, I never really thought of Aerys being obsessed with tPtwP prophecy, but it makes sense. I think that most Targaryen's must know about it, and some do what they can to bring it about (Rhaegar, Aegon V, maybe Aerys) while others do what they can to keep it from happening (I am thinking of Baelor and his refusal to have children with his sister-wife).
Hard to say, as only the most "obsessed" Targaryans are mentioned. But it could be that more were interested in varying degrees. Like Aegon V, the peoples king in many ways if I understand his reign correctly, suddenly wanting to birth dragons at Summerhall seems out of character. Who knows what low level things have gotten on during the years! I took a search for tPtwP on that search site, and we know very little of the profecy. So it's hard to say. If it's something a bit general that can be applied to many, it would probably lead to plenty of dabbeling.
I had read a theory in the past, that named Darkstar as possibly the real Viserys. It had the hints of tinfoil that I enjoy, but Darkstar has that streak of black hair, and both Rhaella and Aerys were silver haired, pure Targaryen in their looks. But, maybe Rhaella knew that Aerys could be harming her babies and she snuck them out of Kings Landing. I think the women of our story are always at work, some carring at sword like Arya and Brienne, but others working behind the scene, subtly, like the Queen of Thornes, or maybe Rhaella Targaryen. And the majority of them are much smarter and more subtle than Cersei!
Yeah, that was an interesting one! Jamie thinks Rhaella had just closed her eyes to everything Aerys, but who knows what she did behind her closed door! Never underestimate women, even in a feudal society! Indirect power is still power, and many times more dangerous.
You do bring up a good point on why Varys might have felt like he needed to get baby Aegon out of Kings Landing long before the rebels were marching on the gates! Could it be to save him from Aerys madness? That makes more sense than just trying to protect the infant prince from rebels, although, with Tywin's men getting to the Red Keep first, that would prove to be a fortuitous action. If Ned or Jon Arryn arrived first, no doubt those children and Elia would still be alive. Robert is a wild card for me, because while I think he was relieved those babies were dead, I don't know if he could have given the order while looking at them, and I don't think he could have done it himself. Maybe I give Robert more credit than I should?
I think even Varys might have gotten cold feet (or would it be hot feet?) as the rebellion loomed. I doubt he would ignore Aerys burning more and more, and the pyromancers rise in power. So Aegon might have been swapped quite early on. Not sure what would happen if Ned had arrived first, as the gates were opened only because Tywin claimed to be legal. If he had arrived a little earlier though, and helped scale the walls of the keep and beaten Clegane and that other dude to their bedchaimbers. At least Ellia would live, but not sure of the children... Tywin said he had a pillow in mind in stead of steel and stone walls...
Interesting connection to the death of Robert's bastards. I have always attributed the rise of magic to the birth of Dany's dragons, which is probably what we are supposed to think, but maybe the truth is something else entirely. Could we include Robert's death as part of this too? Cersei certainly organized his death, and his death could be viewed as a blood sacrifice of a sort.
I have speculated that Ned was the sacrifice that mattered, because he too has kings blood. His kings blood is of ice, however, and not of fire, but the juxtaposition is interesting to me. A sacrifice of ice to make the fire more potent, or a sacrifice of fire to make the ice stronger!
I'm not sure kingsblood only refers to Targ blood. That might be the fireside of kingsblood, or one type of kingsblood. I like the argument that it is the blood of Garth Greenhand,or again that it's one type of kingsblood. Ned loosing his head might be a part of it. Hmmm, never thought about that in those terms.
This is great! Maybe the throne wasn't getting Aerys, maybe he was using his own blood for magic? Or for wildfire?
If the murder of children is a big part of the rebellion and that this was sacrificial/magical in nature, it wouldn't suprise me if he used his own blood for something. Maybe lower level things, like Mel used the leeches? If it was "just" wildfire or other magical things in adittion is hard to say.
This comment has always made me so suspicious of GRRM about the mother of Ned and Lyanna and Brandon and Benjen! She was Lady Stark and she died! Nope, I don't buy it at all. GRRM put's too much into his character development and connections to just blow off any real history about Eddard Stark's mother! Nope! Don't buy it! He is hiding something from us!
Haha, I read the SSMs after the books and haven't looked at them much since. It ended up as a bit too big info dump in too short a time. Neither have I read/listened to many interviews with him. So there is a huge possibility that in regards to his statements on the story, I am a Sweet Summerchild indeed! Alas, I don't have much to add when it comes to her other then the short speculation I had earlier.
I have often felt that there was at least one baby switch during the time of the rebellion, and I don't think Jon Snow was one of those babies. I think just like you stated, he orchestrated a baby swap to help save a life, and I think Ned was responsible for at least one baby swap in the past, but that did not include Jon as a baby, although many people will disagree with that. We are seeing part of Ned's past through Jon's story, and the baby swap is a parallel as far as I am concerned. Neither swapped a child of their own blood!
I have no doubt that Ned swapped babies at the end of the rebellion, however I suspect a whole babygate. Need to wade more into that whole alphabet-soup. There is just too many things to look into for a newbee! I need 6 more bodies at least and 48 hours a day!
Interesting. Is this the same children that Ned talked about with Robert? I never made that connection before.
Did you quote the part with Varys and Kevan? The text has disappeared. If so, I noticed that my first time through but put it out of my mind. It is interesting!
I actually took a peak there last week I think. It wasn't that bad, but still it was a good example of why I never bothered getting an acount there. I don't have the patience to have an hominem discussions...
Honestly, the Westeros board is so big, it's almost impossible to look into even 10% of the threads. There are some good discussions over there, and some very open minded people, but there is also some crap and really mean, close minded people. It's really just a cross section of real life!
My strong feeling reading that was that it was either the main reason given to rebell, or very close to it.
That comment by Ned to Robert about "the children" is often not discussed much in the list of things that lead up to the war. Probably because it's so vague and we don't have the correct information yet to make sense of it. We certainly know that it was important to Ned, and he used it to implore (and try to shame, I think) Robert into not making the decision to kill Dany. And we do find that it took awhile, but that plea did sink home with Robert, as he tells Ned (and us) just before his death that it was a mistake to send assassans after Dany and her unborn child.
That is why I am liking this idea that children were being killed/sacrificed by Aerys. I really need to ponder it a lot more!
At least Ellia would live, but not sure of the children... Tywin said he had a pillow in mind in stead of steel and stone walls...
Well the time of the events of the sack are vague, but I really think that if Jaime would not have sat down on the iron throne after killing Aerys, he could have went to Maegor's Holdfast and saved both Elia and her children. I think Jaime thinks so, too. Instead, he sat down on the throne with a bloody sword across his lap, denying guest right to whoever approached, instead of protecting Rhaegar's family. I think this haunts Jaime, and I still don't know that the situation with Bran bothers him all that much!
Certainly, the Mountain would have been hard for Jaime to defeat, but at least he could have tried. Unless he is completely lying to himself when he says that he didn't think Tywin would harm the children. It's possible that Jaime knew what his father wanted done, and removed himself from the fight. Either way, Jaime is bothered by the death of Rhaegar's children. Intestestingly, Ned is as well. But I think what happened to Rhaegar and Elia's children was the reason Ned decided on a baby swap scenario. The brutal murder of those "dragonspawn" was his motivation to try to stop such a thing from happening again.
Although, if Varys is to be believed, an innocent child, the pisswater prince, died so Aegon could live. It's brutal for some child, no matter how you line stuff up.
I'm not sure kingsblood only refers to Targ blood. That might be the fireside of kingsblood, or one type of kingsblood. I like the argument that it is the blood of Garth Greenhand,or again that it's one type of kingsblood.
I don't the "kings blood" does apply to only Targaryen blood. I have wondered if it actually has anything to do with Targaryen or Valyrian blood at all. That is why I mentioned the blood of the Kings of the North. I have felt like this is the important blood, but you bring up a good point with the blood of Garth Greenhand. But if you look into Greenhand blood, then one must consider the blood of the Grey King as a possibility.
Maybe all of these bloods need to mingle in the veins of tPtwP?