Post by whitewolfstark on Mar 27, 2019 20:07:12 GMT
A previous discussion with shymaid prompted me to discuss an idea that I have had rolling around in my brain for quite a long time, since the first time I actually read A Game of Thrones, actually, so 6ish years ago.
I initially commented on it on another thread, but I don't want to derail the idea's on that thread, so I decided to make it a separate discussion and see what people thought about the idea. If you are interested in that initial discussion, the thread can be found here: thelasthearth.com/thread/1173?page=3
shymaid 's comment to me was: "Fostering probably ends at 16 when a man is grown, and he was 18 at the Tourney at Harrenhal. So I wonder how much time he spent at Winterfell and in the Vale during that time". We were discussing Ned's history, and how much time he might have spent in the vale versus in the north at Winterfell.
So, hear goes ...
We don't know the details of Ned or Robert's fostering in the Vale. All we know is that Ned was 8 when he went to the Vale, and that he was 18 when he was "down from the Eyrie" for the Harrenhal tourney and that at 19, Ned was still in the Vale when Aerys wrote to Jon Arryn and demanded his and Robert's heads. Jon Arryn called his banner's instead, and the rest is known as Robert's Rebellion (or officially the War of the Usurper). But why was Ned still in the Vale, as well as Robert, when they were both well past the age of fostering?
I have often had a tiny suspicion about Ned's time in the Vale, and maybe Robert's, too!
Maybe the most famous ward in the story is Theon Greyjoy, who is a ward of Ned Stark. But Theon is actually held by Ned, for King Robert Baratheon, to keep Balon Greyjoy from rebelling. Theon may be called a ward, but he is a hostage to guarantee his fathers good behavior, good behavior to Robert's crown and kingdom, not to Ned. Ned houses Theon, clothes him, teaches him to fight and educates Theon, but Theon is still for all intents and purposes, a prisoner in Winterfell. I have always wondered why Ned took Theon as ward/hostage, and not Robert himself, but maybe this is a Westeros tradition. A tradition that a loyal house to the crown will hold hostages for the crown? It would help off-set the cost directly to the crown, and also show what houses truly had the trust of the King and what houses did not!
Theon is probably 19 at the beginning of the story, old enough for a true ward to be leading a life on his own. Yet, Theon at nineteen is still at Winterfell, because he is a hostage ... and Ned at eighteen/nineteen is still in the Vale because ...
We know from the conversation in Dance, when Jon demands ward/hostages from the wildlings coming through the wall that Old Flint and the Norrey talk about the wards of Winterfell.
Forgive me, but I haven't read the rest of the thread beyond this post, but I think you're missing a point about Medieval life, and that is that someone may be considered a "man grown" at a certain age, but that doesn't mean they suddenly strike out on their own pulling themselves up by their bootstraps in that instant, especially if they're younger siblings. That notion of the chick leaving the nest doesn't really come into play until the emerging Bourgeoisie and Mercantilism starts taking off among the lower classes.
Before then, family members stuck around... you know the situation that Millennials often get critiqued for nowadays (and Gen X before them)? Yeah, that was the old normal, and in a lot of cases it still continued to be normal up to and until the Industrial Revolution really started going. A family member only moved out when they could afford to have a home of their own that they could provide for, which for a nobleman usually meant that their father had to set something up (if they could afford to), and even then it would only be if the father found a match suitable for their second son that would further help the family alliances and stabilize relations. Or the younger son got sent off to the Church, or he joined a Company (like what we'd call a Sellsword Company).
That said, I'm not against Ned being a potential hostage (any ward is a type hostage, just one that's entered into willing and with whom you treat better--the terms are interchangeable to be quite honest if we're talking politics), but I wouldn't consider the fact he stuck around in the Vale so long after turning 16 as evidence of that. I mean, he's a second son with only the Wall, a maester's chain, or a sellsword company as ventures--unless he wants to wait for his father to find him a bride and a keep somewhere--perhaps there isn't one a suitable girl old enough for Eddard to marry at this point, which would mean waiting, and Eddard can either wait at home with his father and his brother and sister, or he can stay in the Vale with his friend (whose continued absence from the Stormlands is the real question--though arguably that was due to Robert being a dunce at learning how to govern, per his own words). So when given the choice to wait at home, or wait with his friend away from home--I'd understand if he chose to wait that time he'd be waiting anyway with a friend rather than be home.
And then there's to consider that leaving Ned in the Vale means maintaining good relations with the Vale. Perhaps Rickard was hoping to find a bride in the Vale for Eddard to marry at some point. Perhaps there was a plan to marry Ned to one of Jocelyn Stark's descendants, thus further cementing ties with the Vale (quite an accomplishment when you consider that the North and the Vale have been at odds historically--it'd be a shame to squander the opportunity). Or perhaps the plan was for Ned to join Robert's household as a leal man and a sort of guaranteed protector of Lyanna for a time after their wedding (but before Ned would be required to marry).
What I guess I'm trying to say is there's a lot more options and potential explanations out there for why Ned stuck around past the age of 16 than "he was a hostage." I mean, just because a nobleman turns 16 doesn't mean they got kicked out of the house, it just meant they were expected to begin acting like an adult and to be treated like one. Whether or not they left home was purely a financial matter to be decided by the head of the family. And a nobleman could wait until he was well past 30 until he was free to do as he chose in those days upon their pater familis' death.
And I should note that I know from the play La Mandragola (written by Machiavelli--yes the same one who wrote The Prince) aka The Mandrake Root, that a young man really wasn't expected to settle down until 30, as the play features a character who is 29 and the social context is he's trying to sow the last of his wild oats with his shenanigans before duty, society, and his father require him to marry. Perhaps something similar is expected of Westerosi young men--that they are expected to spend the ages from 16 - 30 carousing--if they find a wife (or are forced to by their father's) great, but otherwise, it's an age where they're expected to "sew what wild oats they have".
Before then, family members stuck around... you know the situation that Millennials often get critiqued for nowadays (and Gen X before them)? Yeah, that was the old normal, and in a lot of cases it still continued to be normal up to and until the Industrial Revolution really started going. A family member only moved out when they could afford to have a home of their own that they could provide for, which for a nobleman usually meant that their father had to set something up (if they could afford to), and even then it would only be if the father found a match suitable for their second son that would further help the family alliances and stabilize relations. Or the younger son got sent off to the Church, or he joined a Company (like what we'd call a Sellsword Company).
That said, I'm not against Ned being a potential hostage (any ward is a type hostage, just one that's entered into willing and with whom you treat better--the terms are interchangeable to be quite honest if we're talking politics), but I wouldn't consider the fact he stuck around in the Vale so long after turning 16 as evidence of that. I mean, he's a second son with only the Wall, a maester's chain, or a sellsword company as ventures--unless he wants to wait for his father to find him a bride and a keep somewhere--perhaps there isn't one a suitable girl old enough for Eddard to marry at this point, which would mean waiting, and Eddard can either wait at home with his father and his brother and sister, or he can stay in the Vale with his friend (whose continued absence from the Stormlands is the real question--though arguably that was due to Robert being a dunce at learning how to govern, per his own words). So when given the choice to wait at home, or wait with his friend away from home--I'd understand if he chose to wait that time he'd be waiting anyway with a friend rather than be home.
And then there's to consider that leaving Ned in the Vale means maintaining good relations with the Vale. Perhaps Rickard was hoping to find a bride in the Vale for Eddard to marry at some point. Perhaps there was a plan to marry Ned to one of Jocelyn Stark's descendants, thus further cementing ties with the Vale (quite an accomplishment when you consider that the North and the Vale have been at odds historically--it'd be a shame to squander the opportunity). Or perhaps the plan was for Ned to join Robert's household as a leal man and a sort of guaranteed protector of Lyanna for a time after their wedding (but before Ned would be required to marry).
What I guess I'm trying to say is there's a lot more options and potential explanations out there for why Ned stuck around past the age of 16 than "he was a hostage." I mean, just because a nobleman turns 16 doesn't mean they got kicked out of the house, it just meant they were expected to begin acting like an adult and to be treated like one. Whether or not they left home was purely a financial matter to be decided by the head of the family. And a nobleman could wait until he was well past 30 until he was free to do as he chose in those days upon their pater familis' death.
And I should note that I know from the play La Mandragola (written by Machiavelli--yes the same one who wrote The Prince) aka The Mandrake Root, that a young man really wasn't expected to settle down until 30, as the play features a character who is 29 and the social context is he's trying to sow the last of his wild oats with his shenanigans before duty, society, and his father require him to marry. Perhaps something similar is expected of Westerosi young men--that they are expected to spend the ages from 16 - 30 carousing--if they find a wife (or are forced to by their father's) great, but otherwise, it's an age where they're expected to "sew what wild oats they have".