The Night’s King in the Black Gate

SlyWren
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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Jul 1, 2017 17:35:50 GMT voice, arrysfleas, and 3 more like this

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Post by SlyWren on Jul 1, 2017 17:35:50 GMT

The Night’s King in the Black Gate:

Dawn Burns Red Like a Fallen Star

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself. Storm, Bran IV

He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Game, Eddard X.

Very Short Version:

1. The Black Gate is the fearless Night’s King’s heart tree and Dawn was his weirwood sword—metaphorically “forged from the heart of a fallen star[k].”

2. That’s why milkglass Dawn glows alive with light like the living Black Gate. It’s the Night King’s sword—the sword of a fallen star.

3. But where Ned executes oathbreakers himself, the Night’s King was put into his heart tree and entombed alive in the Wall—like the 79 Sentinels. Thus, the Night’s King lives on in a living Wall—a Wall that continues to grow and weeps as the Black Gate does.

4. Just as Ned Stark cleanly executed oathbreakers, The Sword of the Morning (Jon) must end the fearless Night’s King—once and for all. With Dawn—burning like a fallen star.

5. Thus downing the Wall “raised” by Brandon the Builder—the Fallen Star Night’s King. Restoring the land to unity and the cycle of night and day.

Set up and Shout Outs:

• Shout out to Ravenous Reader for staring me on looking for this here: asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144901-heresy-195-and-the-mists-of-time/&do=findComment&comment=7859918

• A lot of these ideas build off of voice ’s theory about fallen Star[k]s and swords. thelasthearth.com/thread/386/ice-dawn-updated

• As well as my arguments that Jon is the next Sword of the Morning and that Dawn burns red.
thelasthearth.com/thread/1086/death-dawn-revisited-sword-morning
asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/135480-from-death-to-dawn-2-jons-nightmare-battle-and-the-king-of-winter/

• Big shout-outs to darksister , Lady Dyanna , LmL , ladybarbrey and everyone else for the ideas they put into those threads.

• Both voice and LmL asserted that Dawn could be a weirwood sword long before I did.

• I think Black Crow (or someone on Heresy) has argued something akin to the idea that the Night’s King was sacrificed to/turned into the Black Gate, but I could not find the posts. If you’ve argued this, just tell me so and I’ll cite it here.

Thus: The following arguments are largely derived from a group effort. My apologies to anyone I’ve forgotten to mention. Remind me and I’ll amend this section ASAP.

Disclaimer: I neither assert nor assume that any of the posters listed above agree with any of the following arguments. They are not responsible for my madness.

Part I: Dawn and the Heart of a Fallen Star: What exactly is this sword?

1. Dawn is completely unique and as sharp and strong as Valyrian steel.

It looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp. World Book: Dorne: The Andals Arrive

2. Ned told Bran that Dawn was “forged from the “heart of a fallen star.” Clash, Bran III

3. Ned’s dream tells us that Dawn is “pale as milkglass, alive with light.” Game, Eddard X

4. So, that’s it, right? Dawn is glowing white, really sharp, and strong? No: Dawn was “forged from the heart of a fallen star.” And in Martinlandia, “fallen stars” burn like fires.

Part II: Counting Up Words and Phrases (not Clauses):
“Fallen stars” burn like red/orange fires.

1. Martin uses the exact phrase “fallen star” very sparingly—only four times in the published works (so far).

One is Ned’s statement that Dawn is forged from the heart of a fallen star.
The other three: “fallen stars” are metaphorical comparisons to fires/flames burning in darkness.
When narrators mention colors, the fires burn red or orange.
And Martin uses similar phrases just as sparingly.

2. Instances of “fallen star” or something very close to “fallen star.” I’ll put this in a spoiler for those who’d rather not read a list of data points and just skip to the bottom line.

SPOILER: Click to show

• Game: Zero uses of the exact phrase.

• Clash: Three exact uses. One slightly indirect use.

    o NOTE: Phrase occurs most in the novel where Ned tells Bran about Dawn.

o Torches flickered along the walls of Dragonstone, and in the camp beyond, he could see hundreds of cookfires burning, as if a field of stars had fallen to the earth. Clash, Prologue.

    o "The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star." Clash, Bran III

    o Wherever [Catelyn] looked, she saw fires. They covered the earth like fallen stars, and like the stars there was no end to them. Clash, Catelyn II

o They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars. Clash, Jon VI.

• Storm: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One similar phrase.

o A fine black night, thought Dany. The fires burned all around her, small orange stars strewn across hill and field. Storm, Dany IV

• Feast: One use of the exact phrase. One very close phrase.

    o he pushed through the weirwood door into the House of Black and White. Only a few candles burned this evening, flickering like fallen stars. Feast, Cat of the Canals

    o [T]he stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. Feast, Cersei I

• Dance: Zero exact uses of the phrase. One very close phrase.

o Her sun-and-stars had fallen from his horse, the maegi Mirri Maz Duur had murdered Rhaego in her womb. Dance, Dany X
•Winds Sample Chapters: Zero uses.

• Novellas: Zero uses of “fallen star.” Many “falling/shooting stars” tied to Dunk’s sword symbolism.

• World of Ice and Fire: Zero uses of “fallen star.” One “falling star—referencing the Dayne legend.

4. Bottom Line of the Data Points List:

• In the novels, the exact phrase “fallen star” ONLY references Dawn and fires burning in the darkness—red or orange fires, when the color is given.

    • The most instances of the phrase “fallen star” occur in the same novel (Clash) where Ned says Dawn is forged from the heart of a fallen star. And where Jon sees a red fire glimmering like a fallen star—at the start of the same chapter where he meets the woman who almost leads him to “fall” from the Watch.

    • And when not a fire, a “fallen star” is a great man who fell—a “star who has fallen.”

5. Thus, Dawn’s “fallen star” is a metaphor for great men who fall and fires in the night. Dawn will burn like a fallen star when the Long Night falls.

    Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. Dance, Jon XII

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

Last Edit: Jul 1, 2017 18:49:04 GMT by SlyWren: Wild italics run amok

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

SlyWren
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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Jul 1, 2017 17:51:29 GMT voice likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Jul 1, 2017 17:51:29 GMT

Part III: The “fallen star” is a man who fell from a high position. Like the Night’s King, Drogo, or Tywin. A star who fell.

1. But wait! “Forged from the heart of a falling star” must mean a meteor, right? Not at all necessarily. In no instance above is the term “fallen star” or “star who has fallen” actually a fallen star—it’s always a metaphor in the novels.

2. So the “fallen star” in Dawn’s origins? A great man who fell. JonCon gives a very interesting phrase for what leads one to fall.

Jon Connington had ruled broad lands extending many leagues to the west, north, and south, just as his father and his father's father had before him. But his father and his father's father had never lost their lands. He had. I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell. Dance, The Griffin Reborn

Aerys stripped JonCon of his lands and titles and gave them to his cousin. JonCon was thrown down in favor of relatives—because (in his mind) he tried to “grasp a falling star.”

3. Like JonCon’s metaphor, the Night’s King fell after grasping a star—a star-eyed woman. His brother cast him down because he fearlessly “overreached.”
• He was a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him, [snip] for all men must know fear."
• “A woman was his downfall; [snip] with [snip] eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her.
• He declared himself king. And “bound his Sworn Brothers to his will” with sorcery.
• The Stark of Winterfell and Joramun joined to free the Watch from bondage.
• After his fall, they found he had sacrificed to the Others. All records of the Night's King were destroyed, his very name forbidden. Storm, Bran IV

4. Like the Night’s King, both Drogo and Tywin are described as stars that have fallen—fearless men cast down by “family”—Tywin by Tyrion, Drogo by his “brothers.”
Tywin—a man who rose far and broke many “rules.” Cast down by family.

The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. Feast, Cersei I

Drogo’s symbolic relation to the Night’s King is fairly strong. A “sun-and-stars” reaching greater power than any before, who falls/is brought down via a fight with his “brothers.” Tied to his foreign queen (with unusual eyes). And, after his fall, he’ll burn like a star in the darkness.

But in the Red Waste, all her joy had turned to ashes. Her sun-and-stars had fallen from his horse. Dance, Dany X

When a horselord dies, his horse is slain with him, so he might ride proud into the night lands. The bodies are burned beneath the open sky, and the khal rises on his fiery steed to take his place among the stars. Game, Dany X.

5. Thus, a “star that has fallen” is a metaphor for a man who reached too high and was cast down. Dawn comes from a “fallen star”—it is the sword of a man who fell.

Part IV: Heart Surgery: Heart trees, not hearts, glow white like Dawn.

1. Then what about the “heart” of the “fallen star?” Someone ripped out a fallen man’s heart to make a sword? Blech! No—not his literal, human heart. His heart tree.

2. Heart trees are the centers of castles and families, humanized by the faces carved into them. Winterfell’s heart tree’s roots extend into the family crypts—the family’s heart.

3. Weirwoods are also used to make weapons for both children of the forest and humans.

4. And a sword can be a person’s metaphorical “heart” and identity:

"It's just a sword," she said, aloud this time . . .
. . . but it wasn't.
Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. Feast, Arya II

5. So—“heart trees” aren’t called “heart trees” for no reason. But how does this relate to Dawn? The weirwood face on the Black Gate glows “like milk.” Like milkglass Dawn—“alive with light.” Finally, Martin’s given us a “heart” that can glow white, be “alive with light,” and be a weapon.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.
A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. Storm, Bran IV

"He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Game, Eddard X

.

6. A “heart” that glows white, alive with light. A “heart” tied to family, gods, kings, vows over which family will cast each other down for overreach—creating “fallen stars.”

Part V. The Black Gate is the Night’s King. Entombed alive, not executed, for oathbreaking.

1.The milky Black Gate is not a normal heart tree—it’s an ancient man whose eyes open and close. His eyes are white and blind, not red. He speaks with a living mouth in common tongue—no windy whisperings. This heart tree is a living man—a fallen star[k].

“He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon." Storm, Bran IV

2. The Night’s King (Brandon) is far more entwined in his heart tree than even Brynden Rivers (a form of Brandon).

Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull. Dance, Bran II

3. Unlike Brynden Rivers, the Night’s King was “sacrificed” to his heart tree and the Wall—that’s why the Black Gate is different. Similarly, the 79 Sentinels were “sacrificed” to the Wall at the Nightfort for oathbreaking—not executed properly by a Stark like Ned.

The Lord Commander had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them up alive in the ice. They have spears and horns and they all face north. The seventy-nine sentinels, they're called. They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever. Storm, Bran IV

There’s even Arson Iceaxe—entombed in the Wall for trying to tunnel through it (Storm, Jon III).

4. Ygritte is right: the Wall is a tomb.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood." Storm, Jon IV

5. The Black Gate is doomed to eternally wait and serve any Watchman who knows his oath. And only the part of the oath that’s about his identity. His “heart.”

[quote]I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.[/quote]

6. Ned teaches his Stark children that this is NOT the right way to deal with oathbreakers.

“[O]ur way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. Game, Bran I

7. No wonder the Black Gate (named for the Black Brother inside it?) and its entrance are so cold—it’s an abomination—a colder and colder spiral into absolute darkness.

The well grew darker and colder with every turn. When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon. [snip]. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness. Storm, Bran IV

8. And the Nightfort above the Black Gate is an abomination, too—Bran’s list of horror stories makes that very clear. From the start of the Nightfort chapter, the current Brandon Stark knows this place is wrong.

It is only another empty castle," Meera Reed said as she gazed across the desolation of rubble, ruins, and weeds.
No, thought Bran, it is the Nightfort, and this is the end of the world. Storm, Bran IV

9. And at the end of the same chapter, the Black Gate weeps for the current Brandon Stark.

The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear. Storm, Bran IV.

CONTINUED IN JUST ONE MORE POST

Last Edit: Jul 1, 2017 17:52:08 GMT by SlyWren

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

SlyWren
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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Jul 1, 2017 18:00:17 GMT voice likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Jul 1, 2017 18:00:17 GMT

Part VI: So—what shall we do with a cursed oathbreaker? Listen to Ned and execute him—like a Stark.

1. Ned tells Bran right at the beginning of Game how to deal with oathbreakers—and why.

"[T]he man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."
Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.
"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.
"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." Game, Bran I

2. Entombing a man for millennia instead of executing him—never hearing his “final” words—that definitely ignores and violates what death is. Westeros’ unnatural seasons are a violated life cycle—life and death, day and night, dawn and dusk. All must be restored to the old ways.

3. As voice argues, the “blue eyes of death” likely re-entered Westeros when the “Stark of Winterfell” fought the Sword of the Morning—a fight between a Night’s King (Stark) relative and a Day’s (Dayne) King. thelasthearth.com/post/25182/thread

4. To mend this once for all, Jon must be the Stark of Winterfell who learned what Ned taught. He must do what the Stark of Winterfell who threw down his Night’s King brother failed to do: look into the oathbreaker’s eyes, hear his final words, and take his life—the Sword of the Morning ending the fearless Night’s King.

The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. Storm, Jaime VIII

5. Like the Black Gate, Dawn is innately entwined with its wielder’s identity—the chosen wielder “becomes” a completely unique sword: “The Sword of the Morning.” “I am the sword in the darkness.” And that identity must end the Long Night.

Part VII: But why Jon? Because he’s worthy. He keeps the oath that the Black Gate recognizes but failed to keep himself.

1. Given all of the above, the Daynes’ story about “following a falling star” and using it to forge Dawn is metaphorical. It’s a story about power, not meteor-hunting.

2. So far, Dawn has been largely fortunate for the Daynes. The family has been around for millennia. And Dawn apparently makes its wielder a better fighter.

When asked, “Who would win in a fight, Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne (in their best days)?” Martin answered “Dayne. . . if he was armed with Dawn. If both men had equivalent weaponry, it might be a toss-up.” SSM: www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Sword_of_the_Morning_vs._Barristan_the_Bold

3. But the Daynes have had “fallen stars,” too—at least one Sword of the Evening—Vorian Dayne, greatest knight in all of Dorne, sent to the Wall by Nymeria. A king thrown down by a queen. And there’s also Darkstar. All echoes of the fight between the Stark of Winterfell and the Night’s King.

4. Thus, the Daynes are very choosey about whom they give the sword that is so tied to its wielder’s identity. A Dayne must earn it.

“George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.” SSM www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Albuquerque_NM

5. And Jon has been earning it for a while—he understands that Night’s Watch oath far better than most. And does his best (albeit imperfectly) to follow it.

"I know what I swore." Jon said the words. "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?"
"They were. As the lord commander knows."
"Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?" Jon waited for an answer. None came. "I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?" Dance, Jon XI

Part VIII: Summing Up

1. The phrase “fallen star” is a metaphor for flames burning in the night/darkness. And for fallen men—cast down for climbing too high.

2. A heart tree is the metaphorical heart for every castle godswood—especially for Starks, whose weirwood’s roots reach into their crypts.

3. But the Black Gate is different—a living Brandon Stark still entwined in his tree after millennia. He was sacrificed and lives in the tree and the Wall—not executed properly by a Stark as he should have been.

4. Milkglass Dawn glows alive with light like the living Black Gate because it is the Night King’s sword—the sword of a fallen star.

5. To end this unnatural state of nature in Westeros, the Night’s King must finally be executed for his oathbreaking by a Stark—as Ned tells Bran at the start of the series.

6. The Sword of the Morning must do what the Stark of Winterfell (the Night’s King’s brother) failed to do: execute the oathbreaker properly, ending the unnatural torture that messes with all the natural life processes in Westeros.

7. “Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.” GRRM www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Valyria_related_Subjects

8. And the Long Night shall fall.

THE END

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Jul 1, 2017 22:05:54 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by voice on Jul 1, 2017 22:05:54 GMT

Beautiful essay, SlyWren :cheers

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

1. The phrase “fallen star” is a metaphor for flames burning in the night/darkness. And for fallen men—cast down for climbing too high.

Hell. Yes.

Which says much and more about the yin & yang~ouroboros-like relationship between "Winter-fell" and "Star-fall"...

(must mention, and give a shout-out to, redriver and the implications of his awesome theory)

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

2. A heart tree is the metaphorical heart for every castle godswood—especially for Starks, whose weirwood’s roots reach into their crypts.

Word.

I would go a step further than this, however, as not all weirwoods are located within the godswoods of castles. Such trees cannot therefore be a "heart" tree, in that they are located at the circulatory center of a castle's godswood... but even without such confines, they might be given faces. We see this north of the Wall in abundance. South of the Wall, we find places where even cut/burned/poisoned weirwoods (whose faces are dead or even beheaded) have power:

-the black ravens covering their Raventree, making House Blackwood's heart-wood appear black
-High Heart, where an elder Ghost communes with the dead and has prophetic dreams
-Jaime's heart-stump pillow

In this way, weirwoods are the heart of the land, and all that are a part of the land -- plants, animals, people, giants, cotf, grumpkins, snarks.... and yes... even the Others.

All who inhabit Westeros, both within castles and without, north of the Wall and south, are caught in the river of consciousness that weirwoods circulate in and out of all forms of life.

Thus, I would take the heart trees of ASoIaF, and their centrality, yet another large meta-step further...

I've always agreed with William Faulkner—he said that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I've always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing. I mean, you can have a dragon, you can have a science fiction story set on a distant planet with aliens and starships, you can have a western about a gunslinger, or a mystery novel about a private eye, or even literary fiction—and ultimately you're still writing about the human heart in conflict with itself. So that's the way I try to approach this thing. And while I may work within a genre, I've never liked to be bound by them. I have a lot of fun in frustrating genre expectations, using a bit of this or a bit of that, and doing something that hasn't been done before.

SSM (link)

Weirwoods are the Heart of the World, in ASoIaF, and it is in conflict with itself.

GRRM has given that heart a means by which it might be recognized by humans. He cut faces into its bark, and made it weep.

We feel its pain. We feel its conflict.

While it has been given many skins to wear – the skins of wolves and lions, quivering fat boys and girls who snatch flying axes from the air – there is only every a single POV character. And it has no need for clever chapter titles, or even words upon a page.

It is silent. Watchful. Brooding.

And even without ever hearing its voice, somehow, we know what it feels.

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

3. But the Black Gate is different—a living Brandon Stark still entwined in his tree after millennia. He was sacrificed and lives in the tree and the Wall—not executed properly by a Stark as he should have been.

While I do believe Brandon Stark I sacrificed his mortal form, and would agree that sacrifice might be what give the Black Gate its animation, and would also agree that Brandon (the Builder) Stark remains very much connected to that Living Weirwood Gate, I see the bond as existing under different circumstances.

Let us return to the mis-named Black Gate:

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."
"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

I must mention a few points, but first, the bold.

We have precedent for a blind men being able to see. It just so happens that some of the strongest precedents have been found at the Wall. As someone who wears glasses, mayhaps I'm biased, but I've always felt that the Wall is a lens through which we might see things that we other-wise cannot.

Blind/white-eyed Maester Aemon used Samwell's eyes to see Stannis' Toys-R-Us version of lightbringer -- at the Wall.

"Blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting" -- at the ~~Optometrist's Office~~ Wall.

"When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets..."

- Maester Luwin

So I think it highly likely that the "Black Gate" is just as blind as it is black. :pattycake

Another point I must mention about the Gate's passage, is that it is not cold. Like Brandon the Builder in human form, it seems to be alive and warm-blooded. At least, its tear was warm. And that warmth seems to defy all the laws of thermodynamics given its location and source. I won't go down the Weirwood Ghost rabbit hole, today at least, LOL, but yes, I am always speaking from it.

Anyhoo, the tear is warm and the lips are soft. Or, at least, the upper lip of the door's mouth was able to brush as softly against the top of Bran's head as a living person's lip.

I can't help but think that the Others' lips are not as warm, and not as soft. Unlike this lip, they are made of ice. This lip, if weirwood, is made of carbon (like us).

With blind eyes that seem to see all truth, the door weeps and kisses the top of Bran's head ever so gently, just as Old Nan might have done had she been there.

SPOILER: Click to show

Old Bran is this sweet summer child's grandfather.

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

4. Milkglass Dawn glows alive with light like the living Black Gate because it is the Night King’s sword—the sword of a fallen star.

Word². But I think the Night's King is not at all trapped. He has found a peace that we warm-blooded humans cannot easily imagine. When speaking of milkglass, I think we need to place more emphasis on the milk.

Quoth the Crow:

"It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."

TL;DR: "Nevermore."

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

5. To end this unnatural state of nature in Westeros,

Mysos.

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

the Night’s King must finally be executed for his oathbreaking by a Stark—as Ned tells Bran at the start of the series.

Katharmos.

Mysos and Katharmos are the alpha and omega of a Miasma (a contagious power that has an independent life of its own).

A society confronted with a miasma will be chronically and periodically infected by catastrophes. This plague will always return, unless the miasma can be purged by the sacrificial death of the wrongdoer.

Ok.. I tried to stay away from Weirwood Ghost stuff, but I just can't help it. LOL

Either the "wrongdoer" of yore is the Night's King, or the house that Brandon built. What I fear, is that I don't think we can separate these two. It is no secret that I am of the belief that Brandon the Builder is the Night's King. If so, all Starks since the first Stark have upheld his Wall made of ice, and even helped to build it higher.

"Heroes" do not build walls, "Rulers" do. (see Trump)

Thus, I fear all the blood of Winterfell might be contaminated by the miasma of their forefather, and that their sacrificial death may be required to provide the katharmos (aka "catharsis" in the Common Tongue

).

Jon will either absorb those collective sins and carry them away from Winterfell so that House Stark will continue, or, he will be the only pup able to see while the others are frozen, blind, and nursing from a mother long dead (Lady Stoneheart).

"I need none of your absolution, bastard."

-Catelyn Tully of Riverrun

Jon's life was either saved by those words, or they foretold that he would one day provide absolution for the damned.

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

6. The Sword of the Morning must do what the Stark of Winterfell (the Night’s King’s brother) failed to do: execute the oathbreaker properly, ending the unnatural torture that messes with all the natural life processes in Westeros.

I am probably riding a dead horse and wielding the hilt of a sword long broken, but I must make my long held argument on these dynamics...

In the novels, the Night's King was NOT brought down by the Stark in Winterfell. In the novels, the Night's King WAS the Stark in Winterfell.

Quoth the Nan:

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

Thus, the Night's King was a Stark, a Stark of Winterfell. And it should be noted that a Stark "of Winterfell" used to be a meaningful qualifier, as there were other, non-Winterfell Starks in antiquity (such as: the proto-Karstarks, the proto-Greystarks, and the Starks of Wolf's Den...not to mention wildling-Starks such as those who intermingled with Ygritte's ancestors).

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

7. “Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.” GRRM www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Valyria_related_Subjects

It is known.

:commie

Jul 1, 2017 18:34:14 GMT SlyWren said:

8. And the Long Night shall fall.

I have heard some vocal posters on the boards discount the import of Dawn in favor of dragon power.

Dragons do not end darkness. Dawn does.

And like the perils of a Long Night, Dragons bring naught but woe and death.

That people would normalize and glorify dragons, fire made flesh, seems quite misguided to me.

That people would sugarcoat those who ride dragons, shouting for "fire and blood!" also seems quite misguided.

And lastly, that people would romanticize the madness that infects such monsters, and use it to give their sperm/ovum noble intentions, also seems quite misguided to me.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

SlyWren
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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Jul 3, 2017 23:54:32 GMT voice likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Jul 3, 2017 23:54:32 GMT

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

Beautiful essay, SlyWren :cheers

Beautiful responses, voice .

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

I would go a step further than this, however, as not all weirwoods are located within the godswoods of castles. Such trees cannot therefore be a "heart" tree, in that they are located at the circulatory center of a castle's godswood... but even without such confines, they might be given faces. We see this north of the Wall in abundance. South of the Wall, we find places where even cut/burned/poisoned weirwoods (whose faces are dead or even beheaded) have power:

-the black ravens covering their Raventree, making House Blackwood's heart-wood appear black
-High Heart, where an elder Ghost communes with the dead and has prophetic dreams
-Jaime's heart-stump pillow

In this way, weirwoods are the heart of the land, and all that are a part of the land -- plants, animals, people, giants, cotf, grumpkins, snarks.... and yes... even the Others.

Agreed--which fits in with my Song of Amergin argument. thelasthearth.com/thread/826/horn-wolf-jon-ghost-sleepers

Not to mention Jojen's Woody Guthrie moment with "the land is one."

One of the reasons I focused on the family is that the fight between the Night's King and his brother is a family fight. And many abominations in the novels are around family betrayals. All the oldest people in Westeros seem related--with the Starks and Daynes at either end. The weirwoods, then, are hearts of families, even as they are hearts of the land.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

Weirwoods are the Heart of the World, in ASoIaF, and it is in conflict with itself.

Yup! And that conflict is family conflict.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

So I think it highly likely that the "Black Gate" is just as blind as it is black. :pattycake

That would fit with Arya's blindness being heavily attenuated by her skinchanging a cat.

But--Arya's still "blind" and very, very relieved to get her own sight back. Skin changing makes a HUGE difference. But seeing with her own eyes? Priceless.

And come the morning, when the night wolf left her and she opened her eyes, she saw a tallow candle burning where no candle had been the night before, its uncertain flame swaying back and forth like a whore at the Happy Port. She had never seen anything so beautiful. Dance, The Blind Girl.

One way or another, if the Night's King is in that gate, he seems likely to only be able to see through others. Amazing, freeing in some ways--but not the same as seeing for himself.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

Another point I must mention about the Gate's passage, is that it is not cold. Like Brandon the Builder in human form, it seems to be alive and warm-blooded. At least, its tear was warm. And that warmth seems to defy all the laws of thermodynamics given its location and source. I won't go down the Weirwood Ghost rabbit hole, today at least, LOL, but yes, I am always speaking from it.

Anyhoo, the tear is warm and the lips are soft. Or, at least, the upper lip of the door's mouth was able to brush as softly against the top of Bran's head as a living person's lip.

I can't help but think that the Others' lips are not as warm, and not as soft. Unlike this lip, they are made of ice. This lip, if weirwood, is made of carbon (like us).

With blind eyes that seem to see all truth, the door weeps and kisses the top of Bran's head ever so gently, just as Old Nan might have done had she been there.

YUP! It's one of the reasons my brain started spinning on the Gate being the King. It's a transformation--but not wighting. Or even TV show Othering.

It's a marriage to a tree--like Bran and Bloodraven. They are still "living and warm." But the Gate's marriage has gone well past even Bloodraven's.

This isn't the Cold or the Others raising wights. Or even the children's wedding of the trees ceremony.

I think this could have been done by humans--a weird version of the children's ceremony. Down at the bottom of this cold, cold well. Because something is very, very wrong here.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

Word². But I think the Night's King is not at all trapped. He has found a peace that we warm-blooded humans cannot easily imagine. When speaking of milkglass, I think we need to place more emphasis on the milk.

Quoth the Crow:

"It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."

1. Good points, though I would note that it's still describing death by cold. No matter how warm it gets in the end. Though that ending warmth, now I think on it, may somehow tie to the warmth of the Gate's tear.

2. And the milk--

When the milk came, Arya drank it down. It smelled a little burnt and had a bitter aftertaste. "Go to bed now, child," the kindly man said. "On the morrow you must serve."

That night she dreamed she was a wolf again, but it was different from the other dreams. In this dream she had no pack. She prowled alone, bounding over rooftops and padding silently beside the banks of a canal, stalking shadows through the fog.

When she woke the next morning, she was blind. Feast, Cat of the Canals.

A milk that brings blindness only attenuated via skin changing. A milk that brings dreams that isolate her from her pack.

Milk clearly is not a purely good thing here. Being stuck in this state--really may not be at all a good thing. Especially with the cold and dark of that well.

Also, in this chapter, Martin hid one of his rare references to milkglass. But he split it into two words so it's harder to search.

"Sealords," said Yorko. "The Isle of the Gods is farther on. See? Six bridges down, on the right bank. That is the Temple of the Moonsingers."

It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel. Feast, Cat of the Canals.

Milk and moonlight again--right before Arya drinks the blinding, isolating milk that she is so glad to be free of later.

I'm thinking the Black Gate might be tied to these references.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

"Heroes" do not build walls, "Rulers" do. (see Trump)

Or the Pope's take on Trump.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

Thus, I fear all the blood of Winterfell might be contaminated by the miasma of their forefather, and that their sacrificial death may be required to provide the katharmos (aka "catharsis" in the Common Tongue

).

Jon will either absorb those collective sins and carry them away from Winterfell so that House Stark will continue, or, he will be the only pup able to see while the others are frozen, blind, and nursing from a mother long dead (Lady Stoneheart).

Or--the sacrifice for the deaths has been going on for a while in the "cold hell reserved for Starks." The sleepers in the crypts of Winterfell (Weirwood Ghost meet Sleepers!

thelasthearth.com/thread/826/horn-wolf-jon-ghost-sleepers

Like Aragorn's Men of Dunharrow, they must fight to undo the acts that stained the Starks and sentenced them to a cold hell.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

Jon's life was either saved by those words, or they foretold that he would one day provide absolution for the damned.

"The Horn that Wakes the Sleepers." And its tie to Arthurian legends--complete with sword. Salvation.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

In the novels, the Night's King was NOT brought down by the Stark in Winterfell. In the novels, the Night's King WAS the Stark in Winterfell.

Well, since we're being technical, the Night's King was a Stark "of" Winterfell.

Which seems unlikely to be exactly the same thing as a Stark "in" Winterfell.

But I take the point. And it does leave open the option of the "brother" being something rather different. Even Dayne-ish. But still a brother. And thus likely to be a Stark.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

nd it should be noted that a Stark "of Winterfell" used to be a meaningful qualifier, as there were other, non-Winterfell Starks in antiquity (such as: the proto-Karstarks, the proto-Greystarks, and the Starks of Wolf's Den...not to mention wildling-Starks such as those who intermingled with Ygritte's ancestors).

Agreed--perhaps even like Craster.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

I have heard some vocal posters on the boards discount the import of Dawn in favor of dragon power.

Dragons do not end darkness. Dawn does.

It really does seem so simple. It's right at the start of Bran's POV: The morning dawned. And what are they off to do in the dawn? Execute an oathbreaker--the right way.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

That people would normalize and glorify dragons, fire made flesh, seems quite misguided to me.

That people would sugarcoat those who ride dragons, shouting for "fire and blood!" also seems quite misguided.

Yes--the Long Night is not a political feud. To quote Ned:

"Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another." Game, Arya II

Dragons are political weapons for squabbling on a grand scale.

Not for uniting and saving.

And, if the show has its way--the Night's King is getting a dragon--undermining the argument of the dragons' usefulness in winter.

Jul 3, 2017 19:52:14 GMT voice said:

And lastly, that people would romanticize the madness that infects such monsters, and use it to give their sperm/ovum noble intentions, also seems quite misguided to me.

In defense--the dragons are wicked cool.

But yes--nuclear weapons are also wicked cool--and still anathema to human decency in the end.

Last Edit: Jul 3, 2017 23:59:38 GMT by SlyWren

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Aug 27, 2017 0:42:05 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by arrysfleas on Aug 27, 2017 0:42:05 GMT

very nice SlyWren! (i am a bit late, i must have missed it when i was traveling)

Anything close to the Nightfort will get my attention! I must admit I have not read the comments yet.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

3. But the Black Gate is different—a living Brandon Stark still entwined in his tree after millennia. He was sacrificed and lives in the tree and the Wall—not executed properly by a Stark as he should have been.

this view gives new meaning to the fact that he was 'taken down' by his brother and Joramun.
'Down' to the bottom of a deep pit.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

4. Milkglass Dawn glows alive with light like the living Black Gate because it is the Night King’s sword—the sword of a fallen star.

I like Dawn the sword being a weirwood sword rather than a meteor one, after all petrified weirwood is like stone and the children could have 'forged' or given it to him. Certainly more plausible for the children to make a sword out of weirwood than metal.
Although, even if the sword has this origin, i do not think that it first belonged to the NK.

But that does not explain how it ended up in Daynes' hands.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

5. To end this unnatural state of nature in Westeros, the Night’s King must finally be executed for his oathbreaking by a Stark—as Ned tells Bran at the start of the series.

6. The Sword of the Morning must do what the Stark of Winterfell (the Night’s King’s brother) failed to do: execute the oathbreaker properly, ending the unnatural torture that messes with all the natural life processes in Westeros.

Neat, elegant, simple, 'chanel', all that a good theory should be!

One wonders whether this 'grail' has remained either unknown or unachievable or both for the past 8000 years.

Unknown as in no one ever understood that the Others could come back as the NK was still subsisting or it may have been understood but the knowledge was lost deep in the Citadel.

Unachievable, as there has never be a SotM who was in a position to be at once Stark, Dayne, worthy, aware and knowledgeable. Jon may well have all these attributes, his awareness to come from Ghost and his crypt dreams and the last one, knowledge to come from Sam.... or Bran (?).

So we have the return of the Others possibly triggered by a Stark killing a Dayne (some pact being broken?) and the final defeat of the Others achieved by a Stark-Dayne killing a Stark (assuming that the NK was indeed a Stark).

On a side note, your proposal of the NK being entombed in a weirwood - if I got this right - makes me think that the NK was a greenseer wedded to a tree and that, over an 8000 years period, that 'wedding' has turned him into a tree.
In the same way as it is happening to Bloodraven.
And in the same way as the Ironborn's Grey Kings, greenseers they were, each lived for a thousand odd years (and all other mythical figures of ASOIAF who lived for a 1000 years who most likely were all greenseers).

Yes indeed, great essay!

"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Aug 27, 2017 13:17:49 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by lynn on Aug 27, 2017 13:17:49 GMT

Yes, I've warmed up quite a bit to the notion that fallen star is a Stark and Dawn is made from the heart tree. Although I think the Night's King is not entombed in Winterfell but beyond the Wall at Whitetree; it's roots extending to the well at the Night Fort.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV
All that had happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, to be sure, and some maybe never happened at all. Maester Luwin always said that Old Nan's stories shouldn't be swallowed whole. But once his uncle came to see Father, and Bran asked about the Nightfort. Benjen Stark never said the tales were true, but he never said they weren't; he only shrugged and said, "We left the Nightfort two hundred years ago," as if that was an answer.

Bran forced himself to look around. The morning was cold but bright, the sun shining down from a hard blue sky, but he did not like the noises. The wind made a nervous whistling sound as it shivered through the broken towers, the keeps groaned and settled, and he could hear rats scrabbling under the floor of the great hall. The Rat Cook's children running from their father. The yards were small forests where spindly trees rubbed their bare branches together and dead leaves scuttled like roaches across patches of old snow. There were trees growing where the stables had been, and a twisted white weirwood pushing up through the gaping hole in the roof of the domed kitchen. Even Summer was not at ease here. Bran slipped inside his skin, just for an instant, to get the smell of the place. He did not like that either.

Some additional text on old chestnuts,lightning basted,twisted trees and broken swords:

A Game of Thrones - Prologue
He found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning. Will knelt, looked around warily, and snatched it up. The broken sword would be his proof. Gared would know what to make of it, and if not him, then surely that old bear Mormont or Maester Aemon. Would Gared still be waiting with the horses? He had to hurry.

A Clash of Kings - Jon III
On his way back, Jon swung wide of the column's line of march and took a shorter path through the thick of the wood. The sounds of man and horse diminished, swallowed up by the wet green wild, and soon enough he could hear only the steady wash of rain against leaf and tree and rock. It was midafternoon, yet the forest seemed as dark as dusk. Jon wove a path between rocks and puddles, past great oaks, grey-green sentinels, and black-barked ironwoods. In places the branches wove a canopy overhead and he was given a moment's respite from the drumming of the rain against his head. As he rode past a lightning-blasted chestnut tree overgrown with wild white roses, he heard something rustling in the underbrush. "Ghost," he called out. "Ghost, to me."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V
The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, "Corn, corn, corn."

The phrase 'old chestnut' has only an indirect association with chestnut trees or with their fruit. The derivation of the expression turns out to be a contender for old chestnut status itself. The story goes like this: in 1816, a melodrama called Broken Sword, by the playwright and theatrical manager William Dimond, was performed at the Royal Covent Garden Theatre, London. The play contained this exchange:

Zavior: I entered the wood at Collares, when suddenly from the thick boughs of a cork tree...
Pablo: (Jumping up.) A chesnut, Captain, a chesnut... Captain, this is the twenty-seventh time I have heard you relate this story, and you invariably said, a chesnut, till now.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I
"Roast raven," Jon suggested. "And half a pint of ale." Having a steward fetch and serve for him still felt strange; not long ago, it would have been him fetching breakfast for Lord Commander Mormont.

"Three corns and one roast raven," said Dolorous Edd. "Very good, m'lord, only Hobb's made boiled eggs, black sausage, and apples stewed with prunes. The apples stewed with prunes are excellent, except for the prunes. I won't eat prunes myself. Well, there was one time when Hobb chopped them up with chestnuts and carrots and hid them in a hen. Never trust a cook, my lord. They'll prune you when you least expect it."

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Aug 27, 2017 22:31:36 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by arrysfleas on Aug 27, 2017 22:31:36 GMT

having read the comments, a few more observations:

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

Good points, though I would note that it's still describing death by cold.

I agree.... somewhat. That cold can be exacerbated by oxygen deprivation and by utter exhaustion. As when the high altitude climber feels that

It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep

just as Sam did when he fled the Fist.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

That night she dreamed she was a wolf again, but it was different from the other dreams. In this dream she had no pack. She prowled alone, bounding over rooftops and padding silently beside the banks of a canal, stalking shadows through the fog.

thanks for quoting this passage. It made me realise that this is more like a cat dream than a wolf dream. Arya found herself in the skin of the cat which we know she later skinchanged.
Cats bound over rooftops on their silent pads...not wolves.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

It's a marriage to a tree--like Bran and Bloodraven. They are still "living and warm." But the Gate's marriage has gone well past even Bloodraven's.

i can see it that way too.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

But I take the point. And it does leave open the option of the "brother" being something rather different. Even Dayne-ish.

this is where the Arthurian legends may come in. But just how much, it is hard to tell!

"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Aug 29, 2017 2:35:44 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on Aug 29, 2017 2:35:44 GMT

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

very nice SlyWren! (i am a bit late, i must have missed it when i was traveling)

1.

2. Sorry for the massive delay--I spent all my forum time on the show these last few weeks. Yes--I'm actually that foolish.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

this view gives new meaning to the fact that he was 'taken down' by his brother and Joramun.
'Down' to the bottom of a deep pit.

Yes--the wells and the Winterfell crypts at the bottom of the spiral stair--if he was put "down" in the well or something like that, would make sense.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

I like Dawn the sword being a weirwood sword rather than a meteor one, after all petrified weirwood is like stone and the children could have 'forged' or given it to him. Certainly more plausible for the children to make a sword out of weirwood than metal.

Amen.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

Although, even if the sword has this origin, i do not think that it first belonged to the NK.

I waffle on this, despite the OP. I sometimes think that the theory that the "Battle for the Dawn" is a pun might have credence. A fight for a weapon--the Northern version of the Dance of the Dragons. Seems like it's at least possible.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

But that does not explain how it ended up in Daynes' hands.

Really seems like they are either the family holding it for the endgame or they are related to the family it was taken from. The uniqueness of how it is passed--that means something.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

One wonders whether this 'grail' has remained either unknown or unachievable or both for the past 8000 years.

Unknown as in no one ever understood that the Others could come back as the NK was still subsisting or it may have been understood but the knowledge was lost deep in the Citadel.

Unknown--or even actively hidden. If they wanted to keep the power of the sword and the portal of the gate--or any other power in the Wall--if they wanted that power, I'm thinking they can't destroy the living sacrifice they made. The scapegoat. So, hide his name, hide the end of the story. Keep the power.

But at a cost--the stories of the Night Fort make it sound like there was a cost to having that Gate.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

Unachievable, as there has never be a SotM who was in a position to be at once Stark, Dayne, worthy, aware and knowledgeable. Jon may well have all these attributes, his awareness to come from Ghost and his crypt dreams and the last one, knowledge to come from Sam.... or Bran (?).

No idea--Sam's the one at the Citadel. Howland knows something. Bran can enter Jon's dreams. And the Old Kings of Winter are in the crypts.

Lots of ways for Jon to get info.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

So we have the return of the Others possibly triggered by a Stark killing a Dayne (some pact being broken?) and the final defeat of the Others achieved by a Stark-Dayne killing a Stark (assuming that the NK was indeed a Stark).

Yes--or the breaking of a kinslaying--if the Night's King is just entombed, I'm guessing it wasn't kinslaying. Just a truce between the family and the man thrown down. If the Starks and Daynes are related--it's very distant kinslaying. But Ned killing Arthur would be kinslaying, one way or another.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

On a side note, your proposal of the NK being entombed in a weirwood - if I got this right - makes me think that the NK was a greenseer wedded to a tree and that, over an 8000 years period, that 'wedding' has turned him into a tree.
In the same way as it is happening to Bloodraven.

Yup--though it seems to be far more intense than what happened to Bloodraven.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

And in the same way as the Ironborn's Grey Kings, greenseers they were, each lived for a thousand odd years (and all other mythical figures of ASOIAF who lived for a 1000 years who most likely were all greenseers).

At the very least, some of them had to be.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

Yes indeed, great essay!

And thanks for reminding me that I need to get back to the book threads--far more rewarding than the show. Will dig in tomorrow with glee.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

I agree.... somewhat. That cold can be exacerbated by oxygen deprivation and by utter exhaustion. As when the high altitude climber feels that

It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep

just as Sam did when he fled the Fist.

Something ain't good about the cold in that well.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

It made me realise that this is more like a cat dream than a wolf dream. Arya found herself in the skin of the cat which we know she later skinchanged.
Cats bound over rooftops on their silent pads...not wolves.

I'm an illiterate idiot. Yes! That makes perfect sense. And it is isolating from her pack--putting her powers into a cat instead of a collective pack. the cat is more helpful for the Faceless Men. But remains to be seen if the cat or the wolf will help Arya.

Aug 28, 2017 22:55:58 GMT arrysfleas said:

this is where the Arthurian legends may come in. But just how much, it is hard to tell!

Yup. We really do need the next book.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Aug 29, 2017 2:40:40 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on Aug 29, 2017 2:40:40 GMT

Aug 29, 2017 1:42:18 GMT lynn said:

Although I think the Night's King is not entombed in Winterfell but beyond the Wall at Whitetree; it's roots extending to the well at the Night Fort.

I like that--explains the screaming. Or maybe that was the tree the Night's King originally used to sacrifice to?

Or are you thinking the Night's King is in the Whitetree Tree and still connected to the Black Gate via root system?

Aug 29, 2017 1:42:18 GMT lynn said:

Some additional text on old chestnuts,lightning basted,twisted trees and broken swords:

The lightning struck sword in the Game Prologue--it's gotta be a tied symbolically to Beric Dondarion's sigil. Which seems tied to the Dayne sigil.

VERY cool on the chestnut--I never put that together.

And the Last Hero's broken sword really seems like it would need replacing. . . .

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Aug 29, 2017 16:19:09 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by lynn on Aug 29, 2017 16:19:09 GMT

Aug 29, 2017 2:40:40 GMT SlyWren said:

Aug 29, 2017 1:42:18 GMT lynn said:

Although I think the Night's King is not entombed in Winterfell but beyond the Wall at Whitetree; it's roots extending to the well at the Night Fort.

I like that--explains the screaming. Or maybe that was the tree the Night's King originally used to sacrifice to?

Or are you thinking the Night's King is in the Whitetree Tree and still connected to the Black Gate via root system?

Aug 29, 2017 1:42:18 GMT lynn said:

Some additional text on old chestnuts,lightning basted,twisted trees and broken swords:

The lightning struck sword in the Game Prologue--it's gotta be a tied symbolically to Beric Dondarion's sigil. Which seems tied to the Dayne sigil.

VERY cool on the chestnut--I never put that together.

And the Last Hero's broken sword really seems like it would need replacing. . . .

Whitetree is monstrous, massive, old and powerful. It's the only tree we've seen so far with a mouth large enough to engulf a sheep and receives burnt offerings. Whitetree is directly north of the Night Fort.

The lightening struck chestnut tree seems to be pointing to Bloodraven surrounded by white roses.

Rosa acicularis, also known as the prickly wild rose, the prickly rose, the bristly rose, the wild rose and the Arctic rose, is a species of wild rose with a Holarctic distribution in northern regions of Asia,[2] Europe,[3] and North America. Normally pink and rarely white.

Have you seen the hindu god limned in flame?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Aug 30, 2017 0:32:06 GMT voice and SlyWren like this

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Post by arrysfleas on Aug 30, 2017 0:32:06 GMT

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

I sometimes think that the theory that the "Battle for the Dawn" is a pun might have credence. A fight for a weapon--the Northern version of the Dance of the Dragons.

i have not heard about this pun based theory, but it has some merit and neatly ties in with some other ideas.

In my crackpot brain i wonder about the following:
- in the Arthurian legends there is some conflict over a woman (Arthur, Mordred and Guinevere -The White Enchantress" or "The White Fay/Ghost-) and Arthur had a magic sword Excalibur, forged in the isle of Avalon, a blade which blinded his enemies.
Arthur and Mordred last fought at the battle Camlan which is said to have taken place at the roman fort of Camboglanna, the twelfth fort on Hadrian's Wall counting from the east.

- the NK fell for a woman 'cold as ice' which i suspect could actually be the 'sentient' sword Ice (there is a thread somewhere on the Hearth about sentient swords - very interesting).
This sword Ice was actually Dawn, given to the LH by the children, possibly at the Isle of Faces, to fight the Others.
Hence the battle for the Dawn as the NK's' brother fought the NK and took his sword away from him and returned the said sword to the family of the original owner, ie the LH (Eldric Shadowchaser aka AA).
Unless of course that this 'brother' was actually the LH reclaiming his property.
And btw, the Nightfort is the 12th fort from Eastwatch.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

Unknown--or even actively hidden. If they wanted to keep the power of the sword and the portal of the gate--or any other power in the Wall--if they wanted that power, I'm thinking they can't destroy the living sacrifice they made. The scapegoat. So, hide his name, hide the end of the story. Keep the power.

But at a cost--the stories of the Night Fort make it sound like there was a cost to having that Gate.

yes, I am with you, keeping the exclusive power of the gate and that ties in with voice's views too.
And that foreshadows the destruction of the Stark's stranglehold on the North, stranglehold born out of magic.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

I'm an illiterate idiot.

never!!!

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

Yes! That makes perfect sense. And it is isolating from her pack--putting her powers into a cat instead of a collective pack. the cat is more helpful for the Faceless Men. But remains to be seen if the cat or the wolf will help Arya.

there must be something more behind this transformation.
Isn't it the beginning of Arya voluntary skinchanging ability, rather than just 'skindreaming'?
I wonder what was in that drink that made her conventionally blind.

"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Sept 16, 2017 19:40:01 GMT voice likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Sept 16, 2017 19:40:01 GMT

Sept 16, 2017 16:09:48 GMT lynn said:

Whitetree is monstrous, massive, old and powerful. It's the only tree we've seen so far with a mouth large enough to engulf a sheep and receives burnt offerings. Whitetree is directly north of the Night Fort.

Am now wondering if the tree at Whitetree could be the tree the Night's King used for his sacrifices to the Others.

And the Gate in the Nightfort--either the tree the Black Brothers used for sacrificing the Night's King. Or made from wood from the tree the Night's King was sacrificed to. . . .

Need to give this a think.

Sept 16, 2017 16:09:48 GMT lynn said:

The lightening struck chestnut tree seems to be pointing to Bloodraven surrounded by white roses.

I like this.

Sept 16, 2017 16:09:48 GMT lynn said:

Have you seen the hindu god limned in flame?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni

I had not--and since I've been away for awhile, I think I may be missing your point. Any chance you'd be willing to elaborate?

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Sept 16, 2017 19:59:35 GMT voice and arrysfleas like this

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Post by SlyWren on Sept 16, 2017 19:59:35 GMT

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

i have not heard about this pun based theory, but it has some merit and neatly ties in with some other ideas.

It fits with the Smiling Knight's saying "it's that white sword of your I want."

Not to mention Darkstar's (a clear Night's King reference) being jealous of his famous cousin--and insisting that all that was special about Arthur was his sword.

Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"
"He was a great knight," Ser Arys Oakheart put in.
"He had a great sword," Darkstar said.
"And a great heart." Ser Arys took Arianne by the arm. Feast, The Queenmaker

Sword based jealously might all seem a bit Freudian--but it really might fit.

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

In my crackpot brain i wonder about the following:
- in the Arthurian legends there is some conflict over a woman (Arthur, Mordred and Guinevere -The White Enchantress" or "The White Fay/Ghost-) and Arthur had a magic sword Excalibur, forged in the isle of Avalon, a blade which blinded his enemies.
Arthur and Mordred last fought at the battle Camlan which is said to have taken place at the roman fort of Camboglanna, the twelfth fort on Hadrian's Wall counting from the east.

We even have the tale of Serwyn of the Mirror shield--blinding his dragon foe.

And the Wall itself--part straight as a sword, part winding like a snake.

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

- the NK fell for a woman 'cold as ice' which i suspect could actually be the 'sentient' sword Ice (there is a thread somewhere on the Hearth about sentient swords - very interesting).

YUP! The Dornishman's wife. thelasthearth.com/thread/445/song-dornishmans-wife

More voice 's specialty than mine.

We even have all the stuff on peaches--she sang in a voice "sweet a s peach."

Bran, in the chapter where he falls, is climbing:

He liked how it felt too, pulling himself up a wall stone by stone, fingers and toes digging hard into the small crevices between. He always took off his boots and went barefoot when he climbed; it made him feel as if he had four hands instead of two. He liked the deep, sweet ache it left in the muscles afterward. He liked the way the air tasted way up high, sweet and cold as a winter peach. He liked the birds: the crows in the broken tower, the tiny little sparrows that nested in cracks between the stones, the ancient owl that slept in the dusty loft above the old armory. Bran knew them all.
Most of all, he liked going places that no one else could go, and seeing the grey sprawl of Winterfell in a way that no one else ever saw it. It made the whole castle Bran's secret place. Game, Bran II

Being tempted to do something dangerous that leads to his fall. Renly's peaches, Asha and Jarl the Maid's peaches--all kinda tied to temptation.

The idea that the sword "tasted:" the Dornishman's wife--it works.

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

This sword Ice was actually Dawn, given to the LH by the children, possibly at the Isle of Faces, to fight the Others.
Hence the battle for the Dawn as the NK's' brother fought the NK and took his sword away from him and returned the said sword to the family of the original owner, ie the LH (Eldric Shadowchaser aka AA).
Unless of course that this 'brother' was actually the LH reclaiming his property.

OOH! I like this--so, the Night's King used the sword he shouldn't have used? Ended up with it somehow?

That could really work.

Would fit with the story of Just Maid--how Galladon wasn't supposed to use it regularly. Only for supernatural foes, not general fights and dominance. If The Night's King misused the sword--no wonder the Last Hero would have to correct that.

And take the sword as far from the North as he could. . . . Yes, I like this a lot!

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

Unless of course that this 'brother' was actually the LH reclaiming his property.

It works.

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

And btw, the Nightfort is the 12th fort from Eastwatch.

Not sure what to do with this since the Nightfort seems to be the oldest on the Wall . . . . are you thinking there's meaning in the order of where/how other castles were built?

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

yes, I am with you, keeping the exclusive power of the gate and that ties in with voice's views too.
And that foreshadows the destruction of the Stark's stranglehold on the North, stranglehold born out of magic.

Which fits with your idea of the sword being taken back.

If the Night's King was misusing the sword for dominance vs. only against supernatural foes (IE: The Galladon of Morne story)--it would be an "unjust" stranglehold and dominance. Meaning--even though the sword was in the south, there was still a problem at the Gate.

Not to mention the frozen hell reserved for Starks.

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

there must be something more behind this transformation.
Isn't it the beginning of Arya voluntary skinchanging ability, rather than just 'skindreaming'?

Yes--I think this is was pushes her to wakefully skinchange.

So, the blindness. . . drives/forces a skin changer to use his/her abilities.

Sort of like Bran's maiming--but less permanent?

Sept 16, 2017 4:08:59 GMT arrysfleas said:

I wonder what was in that drink that made her conventionally blind.

No idea--but the fact that it is "milky"--the Wall and the sword both seem to have the ability to be positive or negative. Am wondering if the drink is the same. . .

Really seems like sweetsunray is right and the Faceless Men were after a Stark early on.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night’s King in the Black Gate Sept 16, 2017 22:14:54 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by arrysfleas on Sept 16, 2017 22:14:54 GMT

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

Would fit with the story of Just Maid--how Galladon wasn't supposed to use it regularly. Only for supernatural foes, not general fights and dominance. If The Night's King misused the sword--no wonder the Last Hero would have to correct that.

And take the sword as far from the North as he could.

yes it does. It would be typical of the author to throw in a clue like this years later!

In the Arthurian legends, Sir Galahad drew a sword from a stone, like King Arthur. It all ties in.

Jul 23, 2015 19:18:09 GMT SlyWren said:

[abbr class="o-timestamp time recent_time" data-timestamp="1505534939000" title="Sat Sep 16 2017 14:08:59 GMT+1000 (AUS Eastern Standard Time)"]17 hours ago[/abbr] arrysfleas said:

And btw, the Nightfort is the 12th fort from Eastwatch.

Not sure what to do with this since the Nightfort seems to be the oldest on the Wall . . . . are you thinking there's meaning in the order of where/how other castles were built?

i just wanted to point out the 'coincidence':

Arthur and Mordred last fought at the battle of Camlan which is said to have taken place at the roman fort of Camboglanna, the twelfth fort on Hadrian's Wall counting from the east.

the Nightfort is the 12th fort from Eastwatch.

"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."

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