Post by voice on Aug 14, 2015 20:44:45 GMT
Is there any reason to believe that Rhaegar might have returned to Elia after bedding Lyanna?
You're asking for my speculation upon your speculation...
I think you're slightly missing my point, or perhaps, that we are splitting semantic hairs.
If R+L=J, and if Rhaegar was loyal to Lyanna after being loyal to Elia, he did not keep to one bed. He kept two, and fathered two children on two different women during the false spring. While it isn't Robert Baratheon levels of sluttiness, neither is it "keeping to one bed".
Sluttiness! Yes, great word. Robert was a slut. He was easy. Sees a pretty woman, wants the pretty woman. Now don't you see how easy it would be for someone to think that a person who changed their minds ONCE about who they wanted isn't actually a slut?
We certainly don't know that Rhaegar only changed his mind once, let alone what Lyanna would have thought of him for abandoning his wife, abed in her own recently blooded nightgown.
I'm not saying that Elia wouldn't have been a problem for Lyanna, but she's talking about a man who she believes is unfaithful by nature, not by circumstance. All we need for this to not apply to Rhaegar is for Rhaegar not to be someone who is unfaithful by nature. For example, someone who wouldn't frequent brothels.
That's just it. Robert couldn't even have been seen as "unfaithful" by Lyanna, because Robert was a bachelor at the time.
Rhaegar, being married, is bound by vow to Elia. And whether it was for
love, lust, or prophecy, he would have been breaking his vow if he
bedded Lyanna - even if it was only once.
Ned assured Lya that pre-betrothal Robert would not be the same guy as post. And in spite of Ned's assurances, Lya saw the fallacy of such a claim. At the brothel, Ned cannot deny she understood Robert far better than he himself did.
Under the umbrella of red candlelight, Ned reflects on the lusts of men and how those lusts lead them to the beds of women who are not their wives. In that context, Ned remembers Jon Snow and his sister
Ned finds himself in the rain, unexpectedly remembering Rhaegar as he and LF ride away from that umbrella of red candlelight, after their discussion of Robert Arryn being the hand that wiped Robert's ass.
Does Ned connect Rhaegar to the deeds housed in Chataya's brothel? Sure, he does. But only in contrast to them. He is drawing a clear distinction between King Robert (Aegon the Unworthy) and Prince Rhaegar (Baelor the Blessed).
Agreed, and I'm sure we are meant to be asking these questions. The simple love story doesn't seem sufficient.
::: ...looking forward to your version Ser.
Can we take this a different route? We have a Rhaegar who would not frequent brothels, and a Lyanna who doesn't take kindly to adulterers. Who, then, fits the bill? Who fits better, in the way Ned thinks about them?
Any unmarried man fits the bill better as Lyanna's lover, and that leaves a lot of room for candidates. Any woman who doesn't mind adultery fits the bill better as Rhaegar's lover, which again, gives us a large field. The only incongruous pairing created by this chapter, in my opinion, is R+L.
What is strange, given the "close as brothers" prayer, is that the man Ned fits into the bill, is, well, "Ned".
Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?
The connection to Jon may simply be because he happens to look so like his uncle. Or, it could be that he looks like his father. What is known, and I must give a nod to markg171 here, is that he doesn't look like Rhaegar, and Ned is seeing a bastard girl that looks like her father and has her lordly father's coloring (in spite of the fairness of her mother), while at the same time comparing Jon Snow's face to his own.
This seems to suggest Ned+Ashara, Ned+Wylla, or Ned+SW.
I can't say whether it is caused by nature or nurture, but the bastards in ASOIAF certainly seem to be more like their fathers than trueborn children.
And I must mention, wolfmaid7, the very next line in this passage, paired with the previous two, sure seem to suggest Robert+Lyanna. Why did Ned suddenly ask what LF "knows of" Robert's bastards? I mean, LF has just shown him one hidden in a brothel he doesn't own, clearly he knows about them. Could Ned be feeling paranoid, and fearful LF might have discovered Jon was one of Robert's as well?
Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?
"Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?
"Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"
Anyway, I digress. Just wanted to point that out.
I've wondered that possibility too, though we do have Ned's comment that she was dying of a fever.
A proud she-wolf, dying of fever, suffering...
Ok, but that surely the obvious comparison to Jon Arryn in this situation as Ned, not Rhaegar. How would you expand this thought process?
"Arryn was taking care of Robert's bastards, he's cleaning up another man's mess."
"I'm taking care of xxxx's bastard, I'm cleaning up another man's mess."
"Robert frequents brothels."
"Rhaegar was helping clean up another man's mess too, like me and Arryn. I bet he didn't frequent brothels like Robert."
It just seems to be the wrong comparison.
Agreed, in that scenario, it feels quite the mismatch.
For Ned to wonder about the likelihood of Rhaegar frequenting brothels puts Rhaegar in the Robert position, not the Ned & Jon position.
"Arryn was taking care of Robert's bastards, he's cleaning up Robert's mess."
"I'm taking care of Rhaegar's bastard, I'm cleaning up Rhaegar's mess."
"Robert frequents brothels."
"I bet Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels."
LOL well that, just so happens to be exactly how I used to read this passage. And I've argued from your position in Heresy only months ago. But now, to me, this sounds like quite a leap!
Why the change of heart? Well, I realized that the RLJ theory itself is so damned attractive, that once you look for it, you see it everywhere! Even where it's not. I mean any fan of fantasy literature learns to expect a hidden heir or hidden royal bastard being the hero. It's so common in fantasy you could say it's virtually universal. I'm taking a more bare-bones approach nowadays, and studying the text for what is written, rather than what has been inferred by this camp or that camp. And, I'm liking the more nuanced story that is emerging.
So, while I have changed my mindset, your second version remains far closer to my own thinking.
Ned knew the saying. "What the king dreams," he said, "the Hand builds."
"I bedded a fishmaid once who told me the lowborn have a choicer way to put it. The king eats, they say, and the Hand takes the shit."
"I bedded a fishmaid once who told me the lowborn have a choicer way to put it. The king eats, they say, and the Hand takes the shit."
With the quote above in mind, I was thinking more along the lines of:
"Arryn was taking care of Robert's bastards, and cleaning up Robert's mess."
"I'm taking care of my own lustfully-sired bastard (or Lyanna's), and I'm cleaning up Robert's mess."
"Lyanna was right after all, Robert never kept to one bed."
"I bet Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels."
There is a simple distinction being made:
- Robert created the situation that Ned now has to deal with, as did Jon Arryn before him. "The king eats and the Hand takes the shit."
- If Rhaegar were king, his Hand would not have to deal with bastard situation. Rhaegar wasn't in the habit of visiting brothels and fathering bastards. In other words, "The prince did not dine at brothels, thus his Hand need not shit."
Lyanna spoke truly about Robert, and if Rhaegar were now king instead of him, Ned would be in Winterfell where he belongs, instead of taking care of his bastards.
It's loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong!
(that's what Tormund's she-bear said)
You could spoilertag large sections to make it feel shorter, for example:
Kingmonkey's R+L=J essay
Clues that Jon is the Blue Rose:
a. Kit Harrington's hair. LOL
b. Ghost has Red eyes, another primary color.
c. Red+Blue=Purple
d. Jon's black hair + Ghost's white hair = silver hair
badda boom, badda bing, RLJ...
b. Ghost has Red eyes, another primary color.
c. Red+Blue=Purple
d. Jon's black hair + Ghost's white hair = silver hair
badda boom, badda bing, RLJ...
You agree that this chapter does create a complete echo of the ToJ story though?
No, but I can see why you would see this as a complete echo. It is a parallel I'm familiar with and one that has been discussed quite a bit in Heresy.
In my view, there is only enough of a dramatic melee here to remind Ned of his last dramatic melee, and make him dream of it in Eddard X.
There are some obvious differences as well, of course. Ned did not face twenty men at the tower of joy, and Ned did not pull down Chataya's brothel with his own hands after nearly being killed. Also, who would Jaime be in this scenario? Arthur Dayne? No, Arthur Dayne died. Jaime would have to be Howland Reed. Or, Littlefinger would... Which I think we can agree, makes no sense. So there's plenty to negate the complete echo.
I would argue that the greatest parallel of all is that Ned faced-off with a great swordsmen, survived, and left the site without a babe in arms.
So I would say that the memory of the showdown at the tower long fallen was freshened by Jaime's ambush.
Umbrella argument, as I said before, I don't see any connection between the brothel-umbrella and the bastard-siring-umbrella. I honestly don't see why your quote would make that connection. Can you expand on your idea?
The guilt falls like rain. The brothel is the umbrella. Under its shelter, Ned finds a bastard born of a lustful man who would never keep to one bed.
Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.
[...]
For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.