RS + L = J

Damn. This whole thing is deeply disturbing. It is rather odd that GRRM has used so many horrors against us, but not this one. We've had incest aplenty, and now Euron's molestation of Urri/Aeron, but no daughters molested by fathers/relatives. Mayhaps he's been saving it for the end?

Mayhaps this is the reason Lyanna was so fierce? The source of her "iron underneath"...

Mayhaps, also, this is the reason Rickard did not call his banners when Lyanna fled/disappeared?

Dark shit, lynn. I've been leaning towards a Lyanna the brother-fucker hypothesis, but this one seems so dark that I wouldn't be surprised if you're closer to GRRM's intent. It's also the sort of scandal that might motivate rivals to sieze her as evidence.


This brought to mind some random thoughts/connections that I'm not sure what to do with:

-Lyanna disappears with a "Flowers". (or at least, around the same time as he vanishes from WF)
-The corpse of another "Flowers" awakens at the Wall in the form of a wight
-Benjen is connected to both bastards, Jafer and Walys Flowers
-Benjen is brother to Lyanna, who was "fond of flowers"

Mayhaps Flowers helped Lyanna escape a dysfunctional family?

That was dark if ever there was one.In a story such as this it is possible.However,I am not sure about it and I am coming at it from a behavioral standpoint.

Why would Lyanna be keen on wanting to lay next to Brandon and her father if he engaged in such actions with her?

In cases of incest, this is more the reality and the abomination. It presents a problem of where to place Jon on the timeline because Lyanna would have to be pregnant at the time of her disappearance. It would mean that Jon is older than we think born perhaps late 282 and this also makes Dany older than we think. Not born at Dragonstone as Markg contends.

I suspect that Rickard sent Lyanna to the Quiet Isle where there are no tongues wagging and where noble ladies are sometimes known to stay; where women are given assistance with child birth. Walys Flowers may have went with her. Ned need not know that she was pregnant only that she was hidden there for a time.

I don't think he would lie about something trivial as that though.Also,Ned wasn't there for his father and brother's death.He probably heard different accounts and took the account he heard on fave value.

He was actually there when Lyanna died and was just recounting one of her bedside requests.Again,that seems something trivial to lie about.

Robert couldn't do anything at that point about where she was buried.He could have said "It was her place" and be dine with that.

I always speculated that all Bran was ever told was that his grandfather was executed by Aerys. Nobody told him that his grandfather was beheaded vs cooked in his armor, but Bran, as a seven year old, who know's that the way of execution for the Stark's is beheading, therefore the only method of execution he is probably familiar with, had interpreted that Rickard was beheaded. Execution equals beheading in Bran's mind. We have no text proof that Ned told any details to Bran. I do think Ned lies, but I don't think this is one of those things he lied about.

I think Bran is speculating with the little information he has and makes a conclusion, based on few details and life experience. A conclusion that is not correct! Kind of like we all probably do with the text!

As to the idea of the OP:


The quote you use from the text is very interesting lynn , and has always struck me as a bit odd, like it's trying to tell us something important but in subtle disguise. I have tried to work this around both Ned and Rhaegar, but neither are burnt in life. According to an SSM by George, Rhaegar's body was burnt after his death, but of course that information is no where in the text, so is open to speculation.

But we do know that Rickard was burnt alive. And, while we don't know what Rickard looked like, except by his statue in the crypts, "Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity"AGOT-Eddard I, indicates Rickard looks like "a Stark", such as we think of with Ned, Jon and Arya. So, the possibility that Jon is actually seeing his bio-father, who is Rickard, who Ned and Jon happen to look like is possible. And it's tricky and gives us information directly that we can interpret or miss interpret as we will. So, we know that Jon looks like Ned, but if Ned looked like Rickard, then Jon would also look like Rickard.

Another quote that could indicate Rickard as Jon's father instead of Ned (or any other) is this:

At the time that Jon has this dream, I don't think Ned is dead (granted that the chapters fall into place sometimes out of chronological order when comparing the Wall vs Essos vs Kings Landing. But, if Ned is still alive, and Jon thinks he is, then maybe the father he is searching for is Rickard, who we are told lies in the crypts at Winterfell. I usually interpret this as Jon's "knowing" that Ned will die, but it could be that Jon is sensing that Rickard is his true father, and Rickard (and Brandon) lie in the crypts at the time of this dream.

However, Jon also dreams of his father's face as a wight:

So, Jon see's "his father's" face as a wight. Now, I have rolled this thought around in my brain pan for years, thinking of Ned, of Rhaegar, of Arthur, but never Rickard. But that is also possible. I know that Aerys was a crazy fook, who got off on fire and burning people, but I think it's interesting that he felt that Rickard needed to die in this way. Fire kills wights. Did Aerys know that?  Maybe so. Do the Stark's have some blood connection with the Others, that makes them all potential wights? I think that is possible, too. But if Jon's father has the potential of becoming a wight, then that father would need to share some Stark blood, I would think. This very much discounts Rhaegar to me, or Robert, as potential fathers. But it does leave all the Stark males in the running (Rickard and his son's) and even leaves the door open to Arthur Dayne, if we can connect the Dayne's and Stark's by blood.

I tend to think of Ned as Jon's father, so I have seen this dream as another premonition for Jon about Ned's death. In the sketchy timeline, Ned could actually be dead at this time, although Jon does not know. All of the times that Jon thinks of "his father" are interesting. It certainly is Ned, on a conscious level, that Jon is thinking about. But GRRM could also be writing about Jon knowing "his father" and his identity on a subconscious level, which could be one of several possible candidates.

As to the idea of the OP, I think it's possible, and I think the interpretation of the quote is very interesting, but I am not sure I think it's very probable. I do think Starkcest is a huge possibility, but I am still inclined to think it's a sibling issue, and not a parental one. Although, we do get the Craster information for a reason, no doubt. I think there are so many parallels between the Stark's and Lannister's, some we see, some we are not yet meant to see, or others that we don't want to see (incest, pride), and I think the sibling incest is one of them. Cersei and Jaime is a mirror to Lyanna and one of her brothers. I think that is one of the major reveals that will come in the next book. I am inclined to think its Ned, but it could possibly be Brandon or Benjen, depending on the time line.**  But if you accept the possibility of Brandon as Jon's father, then you need to consider Rickard, since they died at the same time, and the same timeline twists could apply.

However, since I think the parallels are important, if we for some reason could work out Cersei and Tywin, then I would be more inclined to think that Lyanna and Rickard was possible.

If Lyanna was having a sexual relationship with her father, one would think it was forced or barely consensual, much in the way of Craster and his daughter-wives. ( But this could shine a different light on the Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden story, if father-daughter incest is the answer to this mystery). So it does lead one to wonder why Lyanna wanted to be buried beside her father and Brandon, if she had been forced into a sexual situation with either of them. I ask myself if Gilly would like to be buried beside Craster, and the only answer I can see is No! If the relationship between Lyanna and Rickard was consensual, then it is more possible for me to consider.

I will say, I think it is darkly possible that Cersei and Tywin could have had a sexual relationship, but I see no text proof of it. But it could explain Cersei's promiscuity and her ability to see sex as a tool she can use to get things that she wants. Promiscuity and sexual manipulation can be common with people who have been molested, although sometimes the psyche responds in the opposite manner. If Tywin turned to Cersei after Joanna's death and began to molest her, then some of her later behaviors make some sense, and how she later develops using sex as a tool. It is what happened with Jaime, and with Lancel and with the Kettleblacks (and maybe Moonboy, too!)

If that reveal comes about Tywin and Cersei, then I think the idea of Rickard and Lyanna could be very possible. Until then, I am more inclined to see the Starkcest option with Lyanna and a sibling.

Excellent OP and thread! Definitely worth exploring.


**(I think Ned is the culprit for sibling Starkcest because GRRM placed Ned on a bit of a glorified pedestal at the story's beginning and has been slowly stripping away at Ned's character, and I think there is more stripping yet to be done about Ned. Things we probably will be shocked by and not like. But it is an inverse parallel to how GRRM started Jaime in a pit, and after time is redeeming him and raising him up in terms of character. I think that Jaime and Ned are meant to contrast each other in this story, but also might share some strong qualities, qualities that neither of them would have seen in the other. I think they might end up more alike than any of us would ever have thought at the beginning of this tale.)

I am in the process of buying a house, packing, and moving too. And it all sucks! I don't like adulting! Hope things go well for you!



I have thought that in the past, as well, but I am no longer convinced of anything. But it is possible that Jon's father is not a Stark, but Jon has Stark blood, so that blood must come from Lyanna. But Jon, in his mind, thinks he is not a Stark, at the same time he thinks Ned is his father, so his idea's about "being a Stark" seem to be connected with his given last name. A Snow is not a Stark, even if the blood is the same, in Jon's thought process!

So, if Jon is looking for his father in the crypts and can't find him, then maybe it is because his father isn't in the crypts, and on a metaphysical level, he knows this. Which would exclude Rickard and Brandon (if we trust their bones truly lie in the crypts), but not Ned, who's bones are currently in limbo, or Rhaegar or Arthur or even Robert. I know there has been speculation in the past about the whereabouts of Rhaegar or Arthur's bones, but I doubt they are in Winterfell's crypts.


This is another example of Jon dreaming about "his father", which could be Ned, or Rickard, as this thread investigates, or even Brandon, I suppose, who must have looked a bit like Ned, if taller and handsomer (according to Cat). I think when Jon dreams of his father (?) vs thinks of his father (Ned) there might be a huge difference in who that actual person is. I have plugged Ned into all those dreams, and also Rhaegar. I used to think it must be Rhaegar but it really never fit with the weirwood idea to me, and the more I look at it with Rhaegar as the possibility as the dream father, the less likely I see Rhaegar as the possibility.

But in this dream, is it Ned's face that Jon see's or the face of his bio-father, if Jon knows on a metaphysical type of level? GRRM could be taunting us with clues right in front of her eyes, but we don't have all the pieces yet to connect the dots.



I need to think on this a bit. I have never considered that in Jon's dreams, he is seeing his own face, but he associates that face with Ned, and even though he knows he looks like Ned, he doesn't understand it's his own face he dreams of. I have always looked at them as clues to Jon's paternity, but if it himself he see's, it doesn't really help the paternity question at all. Hmmm!

Mel does see Jon in flames, or at least a face she associates with Jon. I suppose she could be actually seeing Ned, or Rickard or Brandon, and just not realize it? There are also visions of a great wolf and a man in flames in the MMD tent ritual. I have always leaned toward the tent ritual as seeing those visions of a wolf and man in flames as part of a sacrifice connected to Dany. I had wondered if the deaths of Rickard and Brandon (or even Ned's death, as it could have happened around this time) might have been the sacrifice that was needed for Dany's conception/birth, but that is wild and shiny tinfoil. 

Also, as to Mel's visions, I would think that every thing that she see's is limned in flames. After all, she gets her visions by staring into the fire, so I don't know that her seeing Jon with flames about him is an actual clue, or she is just seeing Jon's face with the flames as background. She hears Jon's name and that is associated to the crackling of the fire, so I wonder if that is all just background for the actual vision.


But Dany plainly recognizes herself in Rhaegar's armor. Why can't Jon recognize himself in his dreams, if this is the case?


Dany's dreams just feel different to me than Jon's dreams do. Maybe the difference is that Dany embraces what she see's, while Jon fights it. Jon seems afraid and pushes his dreams away, while Dany is fully accepting of what she see's and hears, and is told. Maybe Jon is like Ned, who we are told is a "man who put no faith in signs" AGOT-Catelyn I, while Dany fully seems to associate with the Targaryen acceptance of prophetic dreams. It just seems like it's not a subtle difference between the two.

I can buy this similarity between Jon and Ned to an extent, but when I think back to the scene in which Jon convinces Ned that the direwolf pups have been sent to them for a reason, Jon's seems to believe what he is saying, and Ned must believe enough to concede to taking the pups home. maybe he just can't argue with the logic that Jon places before him? We will later see that Ned didn't really believe the pups were a gift from the old gods until after he had killed Lady and found out that Bran's pup had saved him from the catspaw. 

Although, now that I am thinking on it, we don't know what Jon was thinking at the time he convinced Ned to allow them to keep the pups, and it is not until Storm, when Jon is faced with Stannis' offer of Winterfell, that Jon seems to really recognize that Ghost is of the old gods. Maybe his realization came late for Jon, just like Ned's did?

Maybe I misunderstood what you were earlier saying. The difference I see in Jon and Dany's dreams are this. Jon is a part of his dream, but he is seeing from his own eyes, and what he recognizes around himself is "his father" who looks like Ned (or himself) but Jon never admits to seeing his own face in his dreams. Some of Dany's dreams are like this, but in one particular, she moves past this, and she recognizes her own face in Rhaegar's armor. Dany seems to be able to break past her barriers much easier and more quickly than Jon does. That was the difference I was referring too.

There is no doubt that Jon hides from or is afraid of his nature more than Dany is. He certainly needs to grow in this manner, and not just as a skin changer. Arya is also untaught as a skin changer, but she seems more able to allow herself into her wolf dream's, and then get's to the point she is warging cats, so is it that she is a female that makes her more able to develop (like Dany) or her age, or her inquiring nature, or is it something entirely different? We are never told that Robb is warging Grey Wind, but it seems likely that he was at times, and he is certainly untaught. Is it Jon's belief that he is a bastard that holds him back while Arya and Robb are not held back by those same restrictions?

I wish we knew more of the details of Ned's dreams, to compare them to Jon's dreams. We get a few of Ned's dreams, about blood, or Lyanna, or the toj, but I think he had many more dreams. I wonder if they are just like Jon's, or different. In his dreams, did Ned wander the crypts in search of something? Is that the frozen hell of Stark's that he thought of, or was it something entirely different. Certainly, Jon doesn't seem to be afraid of the Kings of Winter, while Ned feels they look on him with disapproving eyes. Why does the Neddard feel that way? Some of the broken promises? Did his time away from the north and Winterfell as a child cause him to lose some of his Stark instincts?


I see Jon's crypt dreams as very different from his wolf dreams and skin changing capability. To me it's like two separate gifts. Now, if Borroq does help Jon out with his warg powers, that might help Jon have a break through with his crypt dreams, because he is more open, but I don't think that necessarily will be the case.

I don't necessarily think if Jon had been a wildling he would have been sent away for training. I would suppose it would make a difference to what people he was born too. A family of skinchangers would probably keep the child and train them on thier own, like Varamyr would have done of he had a child with his gift. Varamyr's people did not have his powers and therefore could not help him, and he also warged the family dog and killed his baby brother, which certainly encouraged his family to exile him. Now, we don't really know if many of the wildling skinchanges are sent for training, just that they attend gatherings where all are welcome. If they can recognize each other, then it might be a way to foster young with old to pass on some type of training. I would think that each individual who was training a younger skin changer taught them by their own rules, much like what happens with fostering south of the wall. Haggon who taught Varamyr, didn't hold with skin changing birds or cats, or boars, bears, weasels, badgers, deer, etc, and he felt several things were an abomination. But do all skinchangers feel the way Haggon did? We know that Varamyr eventually skin changed a bear and an eagle and a shadow cat, and attempted a human. I think it's all very individualized. Borroq skin changes a boar, Orell his eagle, Arya the cat in Braavos, Bran skinchanged birds and Hodor, along with Summer.

As a side note, I always wondered if Harma Dogshead hated dogs because she hated wargs. It reminds me of how Varamyr's sister might have felt about dogs after Lump killed Bump by warging the family dogs.