RS + L = J

Not at the end of the war? So did Ned find Lyanna and the baby earlier or did Ned encounter Lyanna and an older baby?

I think you are correct in naming this central to the mystery of the plot, at least the ice vs fire, Stark/Targaryen aspect of the story. I would like to see that Aerys has some intent with his actions, was not just acting like an insane person. I do think the choice of Rickard's execution is important. As for having Brandon watch that execution, that I think might have just been Aerys being cruel. What are you thinking could be a reason for Brandon to have been given a lesson by Aerys, if he died nearly at the same time as his father? I think there is more to this situation with Aerys and Rickard and Brandon, too, but I am unsure of what the implication is.

Maybe the difference is as simple as true born confidence vs bastard born lack of confidence, but I think there is something internally very different between Jon and Dany; maybe it has to do with who raised them as opposed to how they were raised.

I sometimes wonder if it isn't as simple as Dany is selfish and Jon is not, as one of the main difference in their characters. Certainly, Dany thinks she is special, but is it because of what Viserys told her, or how Drogo acted to her, or is something else that lies internally. After all, most of what she knows about her self came from things Viserys has told her, but he was also abusive and fairly cruel to her. I think something internally is telling her she is special, or that she has a power.

As for Jon, I would agree that in his mind, he feels less worthy by his bastard status than his trueborn siblings, but has that made him so afraid or weak (not really the word I am looking for but it's all I got right now), that he fears what he see's in his dreams, or to face what he must do? I don't think Jon is weak at all, although I do think he fear's something. I think it's something different than his bastard status. I think Jon will need to face something truly terrible at some point, and it frightens him, such as the killings of innocents or a sibling (Bran, perhaps, or Arya), but for the greater good, where as Dany has almost embraced her cruel nature or at least does not shy away from it, and this greatest benefit is to herself. 

Maybe living with the Dothraki taught her to embrace that, but something certainly changed in Dany just prior to Viserys death by crowning by Drogo. Was it the pregnancy that changed her? I get that Viserys was a shit head, but to stand by and watch your brother be murdered, is pretty cold. Especially, if she uses her love for Rhaego as the reason for her allowing Viserys to die. After all, later in our story Dany knowingly sacrificed her own child, and doesn't really hide that fact from herself. Granted, she doesn't face the idea either, just shut's it away in a compartment in her brain and doesn't think about it at all, telling herself if she looks back, she is lost. What set's her apart from Viserys? Nothing. Both have an innate cruelty about them, although Dany does have a kindness and benevolence within her, for children, for slaves, but she is still selfish, and goodness knows a person does not want to cross her.

Jon does not have that. And I don't think he will change enough to become selfish and cruel, although, it is hard to say what Jon's development will be like after his stabbing at Castle Black.

The differences in Jon and Dany may certainly be because of how they were raised, but I think it's more internal than that. And I don't know that we will ever get a concrete answer about that in the text. Just a bunch of varied interpretations. I personally waver about Dany often, sometimes I like her, sometimes I love her, sometimes I don't, but I am certainly never ambivalent about her! Jon, I always like, but would also like to give him a good slap every now and then and tell him, explain yourself better to the people around you, don't segregate yourself from your men, don't be so morose and moody, ffs!

That is one of the reasons that I doubt it the story. Yes, anger can take a person a long ways, but after days of travel on horseback, one would think a person would calm a bit. I just don't buy into the "official" story of Brandon's arrival in Kings Landing.



Maybe this happened, maybe Aerys did see something in Rickard when he burned him. But it must have been subtle or others in the room would have seen it too.



This idea of Brandon choosing to die first is interesting. I like it. And it makes him seem more deliberate than most view him. Certainly, it seems like he was attempting to free his father, but what if there is something to Brandon knowing his life was forfeit anyway, so why not take away from Aerys plan by dying first. I will have to think on that a bit. Brandon did spend time as a prisoner of the Red Keep before his death, so maybe Aerys reveled some plan to him?

Certainly, we hear from the queen's men at the wall, "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings" ADWD-Jon I. This could apply to kings of ice as well as kings of fire. So this could apply to Rickard and Brandon, if Rickard dies first, making Brandon a "king". I feel like it's safe to still consider the Stark's kings in the north, despite their actual title of lord.

If your theory is correct, then Brandon dying before his father, stopped that "magic" from being fulfilled. But does the death of these two kings need to happen in quick succession, or can time lapse between them. I think something "magical" happened when Eddard died, that helped eventually birth Dany's dragons, or Dany as "the dragon" herself. This is also some shiny tin foil with little text proof, but it seems like it must be connected to me. So, could Ned's death 15 years after his father's death, both effectively "kings" in the north, if not by name then by action, have completed this magic? Is that too much time passing to make it count? I got no idea but I wonder if it could be connected. The shadow of a great wolf, and a man wreathed in flames, maybe this is Eddard and Rickard, both dying as "kings". Possibly as you say, Brandon tried to stop the magic by not dying a king, but Ned fulfilled it years later with his death?

Of course, Ned didn't die in the Red Keep, nor by the direct order of a Targaryen, so that lessens the odds of this to me, but doesn't take it away completely.



I have always assumed that both Rickard and Brandon's bones lie in the crypts of Winterfell, but it's never stated anywhere. And assuming stuff does get us in trouble, but I don't know if we will ever have any proof of bones in the crypts, unless the bones of Stark's rise to form some type of army of the dead and we see Rickard and Brandon marching. Neither of them have swords to hold their spirit's in place after Bran and Co took weapons from the crypts before escaping Winterfell.

It's an awful picture that Jaime paints for Cat, and for us. I have to say, I have doubted some of his recounting in the past, so I don't know how much to trust his words, but his description paints something that was quite capable of leaving some remains behind. Certainly the bones!


This quote doesn't indicate that Thoros' swords were completely destroyed and turned to ash, just that they needed to be replaced. I always figured that a bit of the steel remained, but black and twisted, and unable to hold an edge, hence why it needed to be replaced, but that is assumption on my part, as there is no textual proof.


So many lovely hints and implications in this passage for Arya and Gendry, but as to wildfire and steel, Gendry claims that the steel is not destroyed, only ruined. Maybe wildfire could leave bones behind. Bones are strong, they remain behind after cremation with normal fire.


Flesh melted like tallow, but no mention of bones. I think it's likely that some of Rickard's bones could have been left to return to Winterfell.

danl , Sorry, if I over quoted. I do love the text, and trying to decipher the meaning/intent of the words. Ultimately, I hope it helps you to decide if you think Rickard's bones could have been left behind after his murder by Aerys, or it there was nothing but ash.

This makes sense, Rikard being burned for a spesific reason. And I do feel like the "first the father, then the son" would lie behind it. Maybe Aerys really didn't forsee Brandon actually strangeling himself, as most will value life (war/single combat is a bit different in my view), so maybe he would've burned Brandon as well later on?



As for Ned fullfilling the magic: he was beheaded by Valyrian steel infused with fire, spells and maybe bloodmagic, and official history says Aerys demanded Ned's head. If he demanded this aloud during or at the end of the "ritual" with Rikard and Brandon, maybe it could work 16-17 years later. In the Words Are Wind principle. It would also make sense of the demand for Ned's head. Can't believe I didn't see that before, LOL!

I tend to value the general statement a bit overmuch. It took a collection of specific examples to make it clear. It certainly seems possible, and maybe likely that bones will survive wildfire. And I suppose the comment about being king of bones and ashes would be another piece of data. Thanks.

I have ignored that demand for the head. But it does seem to be part of the ritual. Or the echo. Or both.