Here is how it should have played out. Olena not being stupid, she and her forces hunker down behind the castle walls and send a raven to Dany. Dany flys over with her Dragons and catches the Lannister army in the open. Field of Fire II. Game over.
How dare you ruin this "art" with logic!!!
Shame!!!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Did anyone else get creeped out by Bran's mention of Sansa's wedding dress? "You looked beautiful in the dress you got raped in later that night, which I also witnessed in detail by the way"! WTF?
No wonder Sansa looked so disturbed.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Why would all of the Reach leave the side with fucking Dragons?
Because they'd be fighting for an Old Woman with no heirs... mayhaps?
Yes so when Olenna dies they could take the Reach. You know the same stupid deal Jaime offered Randyll except you would have to wait a few more years for Olenna to die naturally.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I had hopes for this episode, but they quickly plummeted. I had been drinking wine before watching, so maybe that caused me to be more critical than I could otherwise have been.
A few observations:
Why is the Baratheon sigil still on the Red Keep in the opening?
When did Missandei become Dany's "most trusted adviser"? Maybe that is why Missandei has become as arrogant as Daenerys?
Did the Dothraki really just steal a row boat? Those bad asses!
I hope Davos wasn't creeping on Missandei, but was trying to give us a clue that her backstory is false! It was an odd moment of chit chat.
Ummm ... were the Targaryen years the best years the seven kingdoms have known, with centuries of peace and prosperity ... this must have been a story Viserys told her! I wish someone would have coughed out a not so subtle "bullshit".
Why the fook did Jon not tell Dany that she invited him to Dragonstone, and he came to her in good faith, and now she is a lying wench who holds him hostage, and this kind of betrayal is a good reason the seven kingdoms will never bow to her rule! FFS! I can't believe that Dan and Dave wrote this drivel! Okay, yes I can!
Do the same Iron Born who criticize Theon for not saving Yara realize they are actually alive because they also ran away from battle?
What did Ellaria and Tyene expect was going to happen? They are so stupid. This is the shit that happens when you lose! Also, poison is a relatively easy death for Tyene, but a crushed skull would have been brutal for Ellaria to witness! That Mama crap ... painful!
How well did Cersei wipe off her lipstick before she started kissing on Jaime?
Braavos and the Iron Bank siding with Cersei after she flat refused to pay them previously? And supporting slavery? I guess that crud is show canon now FFS!
For several seasons, Cersei could barely wipe her ass without making a mistake with horrible outcomes and now she is the New Tywin Lannister! Huh!
Tyrion is spouting as much nonsense as Littlefinger now; I wouldn't say you were a prisoner, I wouldn't say we took your ship, I believe you about the grumkins and snarks but I don't care because I would rather kill my sister instead, but the way, what reasonable thing can I do for you ... I mean besides letting you go after you came here in good faith and my queen decided to give you a bath and hold you prisoner ... FFS!!!
Dany stupidly doesn't believe in the Other's but she sure as shit believes the north belongs in her kingdoms, while at the same time allowing the Iron Islands to waltz into freedom with a queen of their own. The hypocrisy is painful!
Sansa doesn't know what 4000 bushels means to a castle like Winterfell (something a lady in the medieval world probably does know) but she knows that those breastplates need some leather???????
Okay, Littlefinger is still spouting the best drivel and nonsense! Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind ... FFS!
Did Bran forget that his arms used to work?
I think Littlefinger wrote Bran's three eyed raven speech, like a dog chasing it's tail in a circle.
Why does Jorah's cured grey scale look NOTHING like Shireen's cured grey scale? This whole grey scale cure was so beyond ridiculous. Also, we didn't kick you out in 24 hours when you didn't kill yourself like promised you last episode, but for heck's sake, now that you are cured, get out with your bad self, we have sicko's to put in this room, and can't be bothered to monitor you to see if any of your symptoms return!!! FFS!!!
It might have been me, or the wine, but both the situation at Casterly Rock and Highgarden felt so flat and emotionless.
Also, why does every person in the Lannister and Tarly army have a helmet but Jaime, Randyll, Dickon and Bronn. FFS! I nearly had a seizure at this point. Bronn doesn't even have a breastplate on, just the only leather jerkin that he owns!
It wasn't all bad. Some stuff was pretty well done.
Diana Rigg was captivating, as always. I applaud her! Yes, Joffrey really was a cunt!
I think Davos's question to Missandei is supposed to clue us in to her backstory. I think she is probably going to betray Dany, or I sure as shit hope she does.
Seeing Jorah cured of his disease of greyscale but then having Lady Olenna comparing Cersei to a disease that is spreading was interesting. Our other disease that is spreading at will is the disease of death and rebirth on the army of the undead.
I enjoyed Melisandre schooling Varys on his death.
Cersei better watch out for Euron. She thinks she can manipulate him, but I don't think any person can control Euron Greyjoy! That look he gave her after she told him he would get his reward after the war was full of evil intent. He ain't waiting.
The majority of Dany and Jon's dialogue wasn't terrible, some of it was even good! Still, Dany comes off as a bitchy arrogant despot and Jon Snow is continued to be written as a stupid man! I don't know why Dan and Dave feel this way about the character of Jon Snow but it could not be more obvious.
Kit as Jon stalked in and out of that Dragonstone throne room just like Sean as Ned did at the Red Keep! It rather warmed my heart!
Cersei, Jaime and Euron's scenes continue to entertain me.
I am enjoying that the dragon's seem to have no interest in Jon Snow!
The only person creepier in this episode than Littlefinger, was Bran!
Speaking of Bran, that scene with him and Sansa in the Godswood was so very bizarre, but I have to think that when Sansa walked away, she looked worried, and that was after Bran told her he could see everything. I think he know's something about Sansa, either that she did, or that will happen yet, and I felt it was almost a warning to her.
All in all, the episode wasn't terrible but for me, I lost a lot of the hope I had in this season trying to tell us a cohesive story. My expectations for the plot are significantly lowered after last night.
Of course, I will continue to watch, and hope for the best. I am a fan, just slightly jaded! Sorry my rant was so long!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Why the fook did Jon not tell Dany that she invited him to Dragonstone, and he came to her in good faith, and now she is a lying wench who holds him hostage, and this kind of betrayal is a good reason the seven kingdoms will never bow to her rule! FFS! I can't believe that Dan and Dave wrote this drivel! Okay, yes I can!
Jon is there to gain her support and to get dragon glass. Telling her that they will never kneel isn't going to get either.
What did Ellaria and Tyene expect was going to happen? They are so stupid. This is the shit that happens when you lose! Also, poison is a relatively easy death for Tyene, but a crushed skull would have been brutal for Ellaria to witness! That Mama crap ... painful!
I have to agree that I would rather be poisoned than have my skull crushed. However, Ellaria is going to have to watch her daughter slowly die, and decompose just a few feet away from her. That's kind of gruesome too.
Also, why does every person in the Lannister and Tarly army have a helmet but Jaime, Randyll, Dickon and Bronn. FFS! I nearly had a seizure at this point. Bronn doesn't even have a breastplate on, just the only leather jerkin that he owns!
That is simply a casting decision. They don't want the main characters to be covering their faces, which would potentially confuse casual viewers.
The majority of Dany and Jon's dialogue wasn't terrible, some of it was even good! Still, Dany comes off as a bitchy arrogant despot and Jon Snow is continued to be written as a stupid man! I don't know why Dan and Dave feel this way about the character of Jon Snow but it could not be more obvious.
Go back and watch that scene again if you haven't already because I viewed the scene completely different the second time around than the first. First time I watched I thought that Jon looked clueless and lost in that scene. Second time around and it is obvious that Jon had the moral authority during the entire conversation.He owned the entire conversation and Dany was struggling to justify her claim to the throne.
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Cersai is still a Baratheon by marriage. Her claim is strongest through Robert Baratheon and his "legitimate heirs".
Well, no one calls her Cersei Baratheon and I don't know that they ever did. And Robert has no legitimate heir's. There are Lion's banners everywhere in KL, not one Stag of Baratheon banner, no mention of house Baratheon in the KL scenes, except Robert liked to bring his whores down to see the dragon skulls. No one is concerned with capturing Storms End to upset Cersei's power, just Casterly Rock. Nobody even mentions the stormlands. It's like they don't exist. Not once has the "how" or "why" Cersei is on the throne as a legitimate ruler been addressed. For a long time I have let details slip by, telling myself it's good television, but it's harder to do all the time, when the quality of the television has declined so drastically. Cersei is just as much a usurper to the throne as Robert ever was, and I want someone to address that.
Jon is there to gain her support and to get dragon glass. Telling her that they will never kneel isn't going to get either.
If he pledges to her and bends the knee, then he is required to follow her wishes, which is to have his forces battle and defeat Cersei Lannister, and that takes him away from the fight that he knows is truly important. Bending the knee would be a terrible idea. And the people who made him king would not support it either! He knows he is probably a step away from being deposed by his own lords. He should have addressed the dragon glass right away, but I see that as the writer's fault.
I have to agree that I would rather be poisoned than have my skull crushed. However, Ellaria is going to have to watch her daughter slowly die, and decompose just a few feet away from her. That's kind of gruesome too.
Well, if it is the same poison as used on Myrcella, she actually died pretty quickly. So Tyene is lucky if her form of death. I agree that watching your child die and rot is a terrible thing. But Ellaria is no better than Cersei and I find I have no sympathy for either of them.
That is simply a casting decision. They don't want the main characters to be covering their faces, which would potentially confuse casual viewers.
I get that they want their star's to have their faces shining on the screen, but it defies logic. At least have a helmet in your hands, or carried on your horse. It's not like they were at the back of the fight, commanding from the rear, they were riding front and center. Honestly, the helmet thing has gotten much worse over the years. Just like all this sword fighting training with Pod and Brienne with no damn shields. The show asks us to suspend reality, but also practicality and common sense, and when the story was great, that worked, but the story telling is less than great now, and so those details seem glaringly obvious.
Go back and watch that scene again if you haven't already because I viewed the scene completely different the second time around than the first. First time I watched I thought that Jon looked clueless and lost in that scene. Second time around and it is obvious that Jon had the moral authority during the entire conversation.He owned the entire conversation and Dany was struggling to justify her claim to the throne.
I have watched it four times, and that scene was one of the better exchanges in the episode. I agree that Jon comes out looking like a better person, but he still seems like a supplicant. Jon plainly thinks all of the titles and Dany's highhandedness is nonsense, but he is trying to play the game, but then he forgets to ask about the dragon glass that he came to Dragonstone for. It's lazy writing. Then they make Tyrion nearly beg him to come up with requesting something that is logical. Jon should have thought of that on his own, instead of looking out over the sea trying to find his usurped row boat. The writing takes away his agency as a character and nearly nullifies one of the major reasons he made this trip to Dragonstone.
I agree that Jon won that first parry in dialogue, but then he allows himself to be held as a prisoner. He is her equal in rank, whether she agree's or not. King and Queen. They are both rulers of kingdoms and it's peoples. Actually, she is a foreign invader, while he was at least raised in Westeros. Dany shows no respect for anything but her own wishes (which at least book Dany takes into consideration), and she lost her right to rule when her family was usurped. Jon will always win in a character battle with Dany because of his morals and ethics and he faces the choices he makes, while she marches forward, unwilling to look back on her choices (if I look back I am lost). This scene was better than most of the episode, but I still expected more. It's my fault, no doubt, for still having some elevated expectations.
I didn't hate the episode, but it left me disappointed and frustrated with logic and character development. I feel like the producers don't care as much about their product as they did years ago, but they think they can skate by with CGI dragons and flashy sets. But what has always been at the heart of this story is the dialogue and the characters, and when you lose that, you have lost the heart of the story.
Granted, D & D are not the writers that GRRM is, and they can't begin to tell his story as well as he can. I know a lot of people get frustrated with GRRM for being a painfully slow writer, but it is what it is. I do think the scope of the story has grown so big he now has a hard time reining it in, but I don't blame him at all for not rushing. The detail and thought he puts into his plot and chracters is stunning. I would rather have a wonderful, well thought out product, than something stamped out in a hurry to meet a deadline, but that leaks like a sieve, which is what the show is forced to do. There is no doubt to me that GRRM and D & D have had a parting of the ways, and I also think that D & D might be limited on what they can actually reveal of the plot's ending. Still, they are allowing these characters to stagnate and decline, and that is on them, and not GRRM.
Last Edit: Aug 1, 2017 15:16:26 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... geesh!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Post by silentmajority on Aug 1, 2017 23:13:35 GMT
stdaga, I'll say this about D&D. They may just be bored with Game of Thrones and can't wait to start working on their Confederacy show, but in their defense they signed up to adapt novels into a show. It can't be easy to go from adapting a novel to creating original content in the middle of a series. I also think that a lot of the issues that people are pointing out like timeline issues and motivations also may be what GRRM is struggling with in his novels. The show doesn't have an option it needs to be finished written on a certain date, so they can get to filming and editing.
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I'll say this about D&D. They may just be bored with Game of Thrones and can't wait to start working on their Confederacy show, but in their defense they signed up to adapt novels into a show. It can't be easy to go from adapting a novel to creating original content in the middle of a series. I also think that a lot of the issues that people are pointing out like timeline issues and motivations also may be what GRRM is struggling with in his novels. The show doesn't have an option it needs to be finished written on a certain date, so they can get to filming and editing.
silentmajority , that is a valid point and I don't dispute that they seem very burnt out. It was a huge undertaking from the beginning. I also agree they are either bored with the project or are probably over the criticism of fans, book readers, mostly, I would say. Either way, it reminds me of going through the motions but not actually caring. But I would think that their pride would be a little ruffled if they truly are half-assing it through the rest of the series. People will assess this work forever, and if they can't follow through with a good product, then that affects their future career's. I have actually wondered that their only goal was to get through the Red Wedding, and probably never expected the show to be such a hit, and for the push from fans and HBO to carry on, and the scope of the project eventually bit them in the arse.
It might be an adaptation, but they took on a book series that wasn't completed, and there was no guarantee it ever would be. That is a fact. If it's just burn out on their parts, then I wish they would have turned the project over to someone else, who with a spark of energy, would have continued with what is plenty of book material to deal with. I wonder if they could have, but didn't want to let anyone else play in their sandbox. Of course, there is a possibility that the only way HBO gets the project is if Dave and Dan are in charge, and that might have been stuck between a rock and a hard place; not wanting to continue but having no choice.
At the same time, they are professional writers, and I think they are better than this. I really do. We have seen them do better. They gave us some great scenes and dialog in earlier seasons which wasn't book text at all that did a great job of conveying the characters emotions and advancing the plot.
But now, there are odd plot holes, not even from the book text, but from their own show. I don't actually don't blame them for not being able to mimic GRRM's dialogue. But as writers, they can still develop characters, even if it is not how GRRM would have developed them. It just seems both hurried and stagnate at the same time, if possible. I have questioned for a while now that they might know how things are supposed to wrap up but actually cannot reveal those things. That would make me more sympathetic to their predicament. Maybe that is why the final season is supposed to take a year hiatus before resuming. To give GRRM time to publish the next book? Who knows if/when that might happen? Maybe GRRM is as bored and lost in the plot as D & D are?
However, I have appreciated their work. If it wasn't for the first season, I would never have picked up the books. So I am thankful to them for persuading GRRM to let them do the series. I just think they are capable of more, and it's a bit sad to see things slip. Some of it might be the fault of raised expectations of the fans, also. We expect them to be able to one up themselves, but maybe they can't or won't.
As I said, I am still a fan of the series, and plan to continue to watch this season and a further season, if they pull it off, but my expectations are now lower than before this season started. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Agree with all who continue to be underwhelmed by this season. Here is a good article I read yesterday about the 'Penultimate curse' of tv shows www.vox.com/culture/2017/7/14/15963000/game-of-thrones-season-7-review (The Sopranos and The Americans def suffered). But, again, it's more than that.
The non-existent timeline annoys me, even though I know that's a useless feeling. But that Jon/Danerys scene - holy fuck Jon Snow, those dead motherfuckers have nearly killed you several times now, can't you describe them better? He barely tried! I noted this to my roomie at least twice during that scene. Dany's stubborness didn't help, but bro, this army of dead people could not have been explained worse. (Maybe that's the point? It just seemed like more stalling/retard characterization to me)
I've enjoyed Euron, but him saying shit like "Nothing like the love of the people!" makes him sound like a tool. You're a fucking pirate/kinslayer/rapist(in the books at least) and worse. It softened him a bit for me. Also, instead of so much Sam scenes, why don't they linger at all on Euron's crew of people without tongues? Balon called him out on this last season right before Euron killed him, and there was a clear shot of someone cutting a tongue out last episode. This show needs more subtext and detail. And it's the kind of creepy this show used to be so good at.
Bronn has like a second of screen time and no dialouge yet. WTF is that.
Also, all the spoilers I read a few months back have been spot on (Arya's scooby doo killing of the Freys, Euron capturing Yara and giving Ellaria and one sand bitch to Cersei, Jamie allowing Olenna to drink poison)...
I like the call back to Tyrion pissing off the edge of the Wall.
I'd like to see Sansa and Tyrion meet up again.
You'll never convince me that Drogon buzzing over Jons head as he says, "I'm not a Targaryen" was meaningless
Wouldn't Varys know about Shireen?
She going to Volantis to tell the High Priestess about the Long Night and Jon?
Dan's and Jon's introductions crack me up! "This is Jon Snow...he's King in the North".
I like Danys apology to Jon regarding the Mad King.
Lol...Almost. - Tyrion
He didn't refuse to call her a Queen. He just refused to bend the knee.
I'm disappointed Varys hasn't told Dany that Ned was vehemently against her assassination. Especially since he's all about the common folk and a Targaryen/ Stark alliance is necessary.
Perhaps when asking for help in beating the reanimated dead don't mention your homie was dead once too.
If Dany truly wanted to apologize for her father's treatment of the Starks threatening Jon isn't the best way to go about it. Jon and Tyrion need to sit down and have some wine and chat.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Ffs Cersei, why does she always say "only" daughter so much?! We get it!
Where's the outcry from ppl about Cersei raping Jaime? He clearly said, "no".
The jokes about brooding crack me up.
voice next time GRRM says, "good question" be sure to quote Jon. "I know it's a good question, I'm looking for an answer".
Explaining the 3ER isn't that difficult. Just add the word, "former" and bam...its explained. The former/previous/last 3ER taught me. Easy peasy lemon squeeze
I'm glad Sam didn't get into trouble. Each time we see him in the Citadel I'm more convinced of the theory of him writing ASoIaF.
Still digging Olenna's final scenes. Rad.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.