I don't know if she is Ashara but I hope she is. Between her and Howland Reed we can get to the bottom of who Jon/Dany/Aegon really are... hopefully.
I'm hoping Quaith is Ashara, so that's probably colored my perspective of Lemore. Iirc from when this came up before, it seems like their ages didn't line up very well.
I think history shows Tyrion only looks at the parts that matter to him.
We will see,this is just a gut,but i don't think she is just some Septa.
I totally didn't realize Tyrion was so blind to women's faces, so your hunch may well be right. I lean towards the Septa being a former pleasure-house girl.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I don't know if she is Ashara but I hope she is. Between her and Howland Reed we can get to the bottom of who Jon/Dany/Aegon really are... hopefully.
I'm hoping Quaith is Ashara, so that's probably colored my perspective of Lemore. Iirc from when this came up before, it seems like their ages didn't line up very well.
I think history shows Tyrion only looks at the parts that matter to him.
We will see,this is just a gut,but i don't think she is just some Septa.
I totally didn't realize Tyrion was so blind to women's faces, so your hunch may well be right. I lean towards the Septa being a former pleasure-house girl.
Quaithe is Shiera Seastar... it is known.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Good selection of quotes! But what's the deal with the stillborn daughter? When did that happen? How does Barry know (it's clearly not a widespread rumour)? How does it fit with Jon?
Well, after so many years in KL he would be very well connected, so maybe he asked a descrete question? The stillborn girl could still be a cover, though. As Barry says himself, he is no detective.
Yes, and not only did Ned Dayne not mention Ashara having a child, but he seems quite certain that Jon is Ned and Wylla's baby. Why would he think that?
If he heard this as a child, would he put 2 and 2 together? And by now just take it for granted?
I think GRRM is certainly trying to put Ashara in our minds in aDwD.
He shure does! You forgot one interesting boat: the Shy Maid. Shy wolf + maid with laughing eyes = Shy maid? And onboard we find Lemore... Who is anything but a shy maid! Not shure she is Ashara tough. I did see a poster on W or Reddit who pointed out Lemore being linked to the turtles in the river, and Estermont has that in their sigil. (Oh gods, I've now got a virtual zoo in my head after reading these books!) But is any Estermont women missing? When it comes to GRRM I'm inclined to only believe on-paper deaths regarding important people, so I file Ashara's death in the suspicious folder.
But I do not think Ned "dishonored" Catelyn in the sight of gods and men by the mere act of siring a bastard.
Neither do I, but it is interesting that we hear/see him do only two things "in front of gods and men": 1) marrying the Stoneheart (poor guy...) and 2) lying. Combined with
She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon." That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." "Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not." Catelyn II, AGOT
Is their marrige really that happy? Interesting this comes up in the chapter Ashara and Jon also plagues Stoneheart's mind. Ned not mentioning or thinking of Ashara reminds me of the dog that didn't bark wolf that didn' growl, with the single exeption of Stonehearts memory in this chapter. His reaction points to strong emotions. And the whole Robb and JW story is, well, perhaps telling. Tywin's plan hinges on Robb doing just what he did out of honor, being his father's son. Could Ned have done the same only in reverse? This could tie in the fisherman's daughter?
If the mystery of Jon's parentage was solved by stating there is no mystery I told you in the first book who Jon's parents were then that would be one of the best parent reveals and mind fucks I've ever read about.
I know! And after just barely covering 50 pages I might add!
I forgot who mentioned this and when but Tyrion rarely if ever notes a women's eye color, especially those he loves/lusts over. For perfect example we still don't know Shae's eye color and how many times did Tyrion describe her in his POV?
Tyrion is the kind of guy who sees a woman he likes, and strikes up a conversation with her breasts. Not a reliable witness when his little head takes over.
I did find this SSM interesting:
Tigers14: another question, can NW vows be annulled if a person had no idea who he really was when he took them?
GeoRR: who had no idea who he was?
Tigers14: jon
GeoRR: Jon knows who he is. He may not know who his mother is, but that's not the same thing. There are plenty of orphans and bastards in the Watch who don't know who their parents are.
Tigers14: yes. but if jon is the legitimate son of rhaegar and lyanna , he is the king of westeros.
GeoRR: well, you know I am not going to get into any of that
GeoRR: I think I've said enough for tonight.
Link In a story where blood is so important, Jon knowing who he is? Hmmmm... In famous GRRM style!
I'm not sure if N+A=J, but I lean towards Stark + Dayne = Jon for now.
Neither do I, but it is interesting that we hear/see him do only two things "in front of gods and men": 1) marrying the Stoneheart (poor guy...) and 2) lying. Combined with
As time goes on, I find Ned's usage of "gods and men" to be odder and odder.
If Jon Snow is Ned's son from Ashara Dayne, Wylla, or the fisherman's daughter, how did Ned dishonor Catelyn? Men sire bastards, and according to Ned, they do so because of lust instilled by the gods.
Such a thing might dishonor the woman Ned had bedded, but it would not dishonor Catelyn. Even Catelyn herself views it as a normal thing for Ned to have done.
This leaves me with
Ned + ?? = Ned dishonoring himself and dishonoring Catelyn, "in the sight of gods and men."
Is their marrige really that happy? Interesting this comes up in the chapter Ashara and Jon also plagues Stoneheart's mind. Ned not mentioning or thinking of Ashara reminds me of the dog that didn't bark wolf that didn' growl, with the single exeption of Stonehearts memory in this chapter. His reaction points to strong emotions.
Indeed they do. And while the strong emotions in and of themselves make sense, as Catelyn has asked about Jon's parentage, Ned's sensitivity to the name Ashara Dayne is difficult to explain if there isn't more to the story of Starfall.
And the whole Robb and JW story is, well, perhaps telling. Tywin's plan hinges on Robb doing just what he did out of honor, being his father's son. Could Ned have done the same only in reverse? This could tie in the fisherman's daughter?
Makes sense to me. Robb+Jeyne Westerling, for me, makes for a strong parallel with the idea of Ned+Wylla. markg171 has a nice essay on N+W=J here.
The parallel there that I see is one in which Ned is overcome with sorrow for his dead sister. I think Lyanna died at Starfall. Ashara also died there shortly after/during Ned's visit, it seems, and this might have made Wylla sad.
Two sad people with nothing to do but mourn might decide there is a more enjoyable way to spend their time. Robb+Jeyne had that kind of origin, and it would make for a great parallel with Ned+Wylla. It works for Ned+Ashara too of course.
Ashara had just lost a brother (and possibly a lover, if she had been Rhaegar's paramour). Ned clearly feels bad for his part in Arthur's death. Combined with his sister's, the two might certainly have a lot of shared grief.
Neither do I, but it is interesting that we hear/see him do only two things "in front of gods and men": 1) marrying the Stoneheart (poor guy...) and 2) lying. Combined with
As time goes on, I find Ned's usage of "gods and men" to be odder and odder.
If Jon Snow is Ned's son from Ashara Dayne, Wylla, or the fisherman's daughter, how did Ned dishonor Catelyn? Men sire bastards, and according to Ned, they do so because of lust instilled by the gods.
Such a thing might dishonor the woman Ned had bedded, but it would not dishonor Catelyn. Even Catelyn herself views it as a normal thing for Ned to have done.
This leaves me with
Ned + ?? = Ned dishonoring himself and dishonoring Catelyn, "in the sight of gods and men."
Is their marrige really that happy? Interesting this comes up in the chapter Ashara and Jon also plagues Stoneheart's mind. Ned not mentioning or thinking of Ashara reminds me of the dog that didn't bark wolf that didn' growl, with the single exeption of Stonehearts memory in this chapter. His reaction points to strong emotions.
Indeed they do. And while the strong emotions in and of themselves make sense, as Catelyn has asked about Jon's parentage, Ned's sensitivity to the name Ashara Dayne is difficult to explain if there isn't more to the story of Starfall.
And the whole Robb and JW story is, well, perhaps telling. Tywin's plan hinges on Robb doing just what he did out of honor, being his father's son. Could Ned have done the same only in reverse? This could tie in the fisherman's daughter?
Makes sense to me. Robb+Jeyne Westerling, for me, makes for a strong parallel with the idea of Ned+Wylla. markg171 has a nice essay on N+W=J here.
The parallel there that I see is one in which Ned is overcome with sorrow for his dead sister. I think Lyanna died at Starfall. Ashara also died there shortly after/during Ned's visit, it seems, and this might have made Wylla sad.
Two sad people with nothing to do but mourn might decide there is a more enjoyable way to spend their time. Robb+Jeyne had that kind of origin, and it would make for a great parallel with Ned+Wylla. It works for Ned+Ashara too of course.
Ashara had just lost a brother (and possibly a lover, if she had been Rhaegar's paramour). Ned clearly feels bad for his part in Arthur's death. Combined with his sister's, the two might certainly have a lot of shared grief.
I am still relatively on board with the Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter. Wylla was the wetnurse they got from White Harbor.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I am still relatively on board with the Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter. Wylla was the wetnurse they got from White Harbor.
While intriguing, both of these theories are contradicted by Edric Dayne. I can't say I fully buy Edric's story, but it is difficult to understand what he's talking about, and why he would be taught what he was taught, if Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter, and Wylla was not Starfall's wetnurse. It seems too coincidental that both Starfall and White Harbor would have wetnurses named Wylla connected to Jon Snow's birth.
It also seems too coincidental that both Edric and Eddard's men told tales of Eddard+Ashara. Can't say I fully buy those tales either, but they seem oddly corroborative if Ashara didn't jump to her death and if Jon was nursed by a Wylla who was not from Starfall. The return of Dawn is well known, and Ned's journey north with a bastard, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the tales told by Eddard's men were conjecture.
But Edric's account seems very reliable and credible. He had no cause to lie to Arya. Ned was dead, as was Ashara, and Jon was a man grown at the Wall. Edric and Arya found themselves in extraordinary circumstances, in the company of an undying knight. Not to mention the realm was in the midst of the Wot5k...
And, just as Jojen and Meera had assumed Bran had heard the story of the KotLT before, Ned Dayne assumed that Arya had already heard about Eddard and Ashara's romance. While Ned forbade utterance of Ashara's name at Winterfell, it seems he was not able to stifle the oral histories of House Dayne and House Reed. And it seems odd that two houses Ned respected so much would lie about Lord Stark's romantic interests to their heirs.
I am still relatively on board with the Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter. Wylla was the wetnurse they got from White Harbor.
While intriguing, both of these theories are contradicted by Edric Dayne. I can't say I fully buy Edric's story, but it is difficult to understand what he's talking about, and why he would be taught what he was taught, if Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter, and Wylla was not Starfall's wetnurse. It seems too coincidental that both Starfall and White Harbor would have wetnurses named Wylla connected to Jon Snow's birth.
It also seems too coincidental that both Edric and Eddard's men told tales of Eddard+Ashara. Can't say I fully buy those tales either, but they seem oddly corroborative if Ashara didn't jump to her death and if Jon was nursed by a Wylla who was not from Starfall. The return of Dawn is well known, and Ned's journey north with a bastard, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the tales told by Eddard's men were conjecture.
But Edric's account seems very reliable and credible. He had no cause to lie to Arya. Ned was dead, as was Ashara, and Jon was a man grown at the Wall. Edric and Arya found themselves in extraordinary circumstances, in the company of an undying knight. Not to mention the realm was in the midst of the Wot5k...
And, just as Jojen and Meera had assumed Bran had heard the story of the KotLT before, Ned Dayne assumed that Arya had already heard about Eddard and Ashara's romance. While Ned forbade utterance of Ashara's name at Winterfell, it seems he was not able to stifle the oral histories of House Dayne and House Reed. And it seems odd that two houses Ned respected so much would lie about Lord Stark's romantic interests to their heirs.
Edric story isn't a contradiction but rather the official story of what happened to hide the truth. Also Edric story makes no damn sense as well. Eddard loves Ashara but keeps fucking the wetnurse in order to make Jon... what kind of love story is that? #stillabetterlovestorythantwilight
Edric isn't lying but he can't be told the true story. Also isn't it interesting that Ned never tells these stories to his kids. Its almost like he is keeping something from them and the readers.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Edric story isn't a contradiction but rather the official story of what happened to hide the truth. Also Edric story makes no damn sense as well. Eddard loves Ashara but keeps fucking the wetnurse in order to make Jon... what kind of love story is that? #stillabetterlovestorythantwilight
Edric isn't lying but he can't be told the true story. Also isn't it interesting that Ned never tells these stories to his kids. Its almost like he is keeping something from them and the readers.
In defense of Edric, I don't think he ever said that Eddard loved Ashara. He only claimed that Eddard broke Ashara's heart, iirc. So there is some leeway in there. Mayhaps he broke Ashara's heart by boning the wetnurse. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ned + ?? = Ned dishonoring himself and dishonoring Catelyn, "in the sight of gods and men."
Could be if Ned was already married... I heard that negotiations were had between Hoster Tully, Ned and Jon, but haven't seen it my self as World is currently on my readinglist. If so, Ned's marriage might not have been so straight forward as Stoneheart thought. If Ned married in front of a hearttree Hoster might not care, but Ned certanly would!
Ned's sensitivity to the name Ashara Dayne is difficult to explain if there isn't more to the story of Starfall.
Absolutely!
Robb+Jeyne Westerling, for me, makes for a strong parallel with the idea of Ned+Wylla.
Well, Jeyne is highborn and Wylla is not. Don't forget the start of the rebellion, where Ned goes through much of the same as Robb. Ned looses father and brother - Robb looses two brothers Ned almost dies crossing to Sisteron - Robb is wounded in battle Strong parallells there! It's also interesting that Martin refuses to pinpoint Jons birth to the time of the sack or toj. So we don't actually have a time of birth for him. It's only tied to 8-9 months before Dany, and her origins/childhood is suspect too. This is a "babygate" indeed! Thank you for the link, I'll look at it later. *Sigh* I'm litterary years behind "everyone" in this story, and have so much to catch up to that it's quite daunting! I'll get there tough!
While intriguing, both of these theories are contradicted by Edric Dayne. I can't say I fully buy Edric's story, but it is difficult to understand what he's talking about, and why he would be taught what he was taught, if Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter, and Wylla was not Starfall's wetnurse. It seems too coincidental that both Starfall and White Harbor would have wetnurses named Wylla connected to Jon Snow's birth.
It also seems too coincidental that both Edric and Eddard's men told tales of Eddard+Ashara. Can't say I fully buy those tales either, but they seem oddly corroborative if Ashara didn't jump to her death and if Jon was nursed by a Wylla who was not from Starfall. The return of Dawn is well known, and Ned's journey north with a bastard, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the tales told by Eddard's men were conjecture.
But Edric's account seems very reliable and credible. He had no cause to lie to Arya. Ned was dead, as was Ashara, and Jon was a man grown at the Wall. Edric and Arya found themselves in extraordinary circumstances, in the company of an undying knight. Not to mention the realm was in the midst of the Wot5k...
And, just as Jojen and Meera had assumed Bran had heard the story of the KotLT before, Ned Dayne assumed that Arya had already heard about Eddard and Ashara's romance. While Ned forbade utterance of Ashara's name at Winterfell, it seems he was not able to stifle the oral histories of House Dayne and House Reed. And it seems odd that two houses Ned respected so much would lie about Lord Stark's romantic interests to their heirs.
We don't know if Wylla was at Starfall before the rebellion, so Ashare could have returned there with her. Mind, I'm not shure when or where Jon was born, but I have this nagging feeling that Jon is older than Robb. As I've said, Ned D sounds like the official story, and might be a cover. I agree re: Bran and Arya not having heard of the story of Ashara. Hmmm... One contention I have is that we don't know Ned traveled north with Jon, the first we hear of him is when Stoneheart arrives at WF and Jon is already there. No one else mentions Ned traveling with a child and wetnurse in tow...
Edric story isn't a contradiction but rather the official story of what happened to hide the truth. Also Edric story makes no damn sense as well. Eddard loves Ashara but keeps fucking the wetnurse in order to make Jon... what kind of love story is that? #stillabetterlovestorythantwilight
Edric isn't lying but he can't be told the true story. Also isn't it interesting that Ned never tells these stories to his kids. Its almost like he is keeping something from them and the readers.
In defense of Edric, I don't think he ever said that Eddard loved Ashara. He only claimed that Eddard broke Ashara's heart, iirc. So there is some leeway in there. Mayhaps he broke Ashara's heart by boning the wetnurse. LOL
"Tell me."
He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"
"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."
Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal. Then he fucks the wet nurse of the House. Most def sounds like the honorable Eddard Stark.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Edric story isn't a contradiction but rather the official story of what happened to hide the truth. Also Edric story makes no damn sense as well. Eddard loves Ashara but keeps fucking the wetnurse in order to make Jon... what kind of love story is that? #stillabetterlovestorythantwilight
Edric isn't lying but he can't be told the true story. Also isn't it interesting that Ned never tells these stories to his kids. Its almost like he is keeping something from them and the readers.
I agree. And I can picture Ned D meeting Ned S: D: My Hand, um, Lord... S: Hello, young ser. D: Ummm, I have heard so much of you and an honored to meet you, My Lord! Ummmm, I've heard all about how you killed my uncle and aunt. *Uncomfortable silence follows* And re: fisherman's daugther. How come it's only a local rumor? It's a port! Puzzeling in a world full of songs and rumors!
Quick FYI, shymaid . You can select text and "quick quote" it. You can select parts of posts from multiple users even, and respond to each in kind. Very handy feature that makes quoting much easier. (It also sends a notification to whomoever you've quoted)
Could be if Ned was already married... I heard that negotiations were had between Hoster Tully, Ned and Jon, but haven't seen it my self as World is currently on my readinglist. If so, Ned's marriage might not have been so straight forward as Stoneheart thought. If Ned married in front of a hearttree Hoster might not care, but Ned certanly would!
Ned was certainly already married before his trip to Dorne, that much we know. (Rickard and Jon Arryn had negotiated the marriage pacts.) But the part that gets me is that while out of wedlock shenanigans are frowned upon, they are not exactly a cause of concern, let alone guilt, for most Westerosi men.
Not only is adultery condoned, an entire social construct exists to accommodate it. Brothels are common even in remote locations on the continent, for example. Then there is Catelyn's own account of the transgression which sets forth even more social constructs that support infidelity:
Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
Thus Catelyn did not feel dishonored by the infidelity, she felt dishonored by Jon's presence at Winterfell. The infidelity itself is something she views as normal, unsurprising, and she even characterizes it as a "welcome solace." And there's just no way that it can be dishonorable in the sight of gods and men for a man to allow his bastard to live at home.
The right to first night would have basically ensured that a Lord had a few bastards nearby. Then, in addition to that, we have the whole naming tradition. Westeros has created a caste of bastards with specialized regional surnames.
Not sure why I'm laying all of that out. LOL Guess I just felt like over-explaining why it seems so strange that Ned would feel that he'd dishonored himself, and Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.
Well, Jeyne is highborn and Wylla is not. Don't forget the start of the rebellion, where Ned goes through much of the same as Robb. Ned looses father and brother - Robb looses two brothers Ned almost dies crossing to Sisteron - Robb is wounded in battle Strong parallells there! It's also interesting that Martin refuses to pinpoint Jons birth to the time of the sack or toj. So we don't actually have a time of birth for him. It's only tied to 8-9 months before Dany, and her origins/childhood is suspect too. This is a "babygate" indeed!
Great points. I can only agree. And definitely a babygate for Dany. You might enjoy the Lemongate thread, when you have time.
Thank you for the link, I'll look at it later. *Sigh* I'm litterary years behind "everyone" in this story, and have so much to catch up to that it's quite daunting! I'll get there tough!
No worries. It's all about fresh perspective! I wish I could reread the series for the first time, but alas I'm sullied.
Mind, I'm not shure when or where Jon was born, but I have this nagging feeling that Jon is older than Robb.
Me too.
"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children." "That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.
One contention I have is that we don't know Ned traveled north with Jon, the first we hear of him is when Stoneheart arrives at WF and Jon is already there. No one else mentions Ned traveling with a child and wetnurse in tow...
Another sage observation, and I can again only agree. Gotta love the cold hard canon.
Funny, but I've never given the practical needs of the journey with Jon much thought. Unless Jon was born within a day's ride of Winterfell, it seems like a traveling wetnurse or two would have been necessary. And if Jon's mother died near his birth, then this would make the need for a wetnurse all the more constant.
Truth be told, I've never been a fan of the idea of Wylla traveling with Ned, but the more I think about it, he had to have had a wetnurse if Jon was born anywhere south of the Neck.
Granted, Jon may have been born in the North, but then, that would make the Starfall cover story all the more peculiar.
I agree. And I can picture Ned D meeting Ned S: D: My Hand, um, Lord... S: Hello, young ser. D: Ummm, I have heard so much of you and an honored to meet you, My Lord! Ummmm, I've heard all about how you killed my uncle and aunt. *Uncomfortable silence follows* And re: fisherman's daugther. How come it's only a local rumor? It's a port! Puzzeling in a world full of songs and rumors!
Mayhaps the port tale did spread? No evidence of it spreading of course, but if it had spread off-page it would help to explain the relative ambiguity of Jon's parentage for people like Catelyn and Cersei. Conflicting reports to sow doubt in the Dayne tale.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Quick FYI, shymaid . You can select text and "quick quote" it. You can select parts of posts from multiple users even, and respond to each in kind. Very handy feature that makes quoting much easier. (It also sends a notification to whomoever you've quoted)
Thanks, I have seen it and used it. Not used to the format of it, though. Been a while since I was on a forum last. *Precedes to use it as practice makes at least better*
Not sure why I'm laying all of that out. LOL Guess I just felt like over-explaining why it seems so strange that Ned would feel that he'd dishonored himself, and Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.
Confession time, I bought the books in March and are on my first reread of got (but keep distracting my self with theories in the net...). I do have a good memory! Still, the info dump is gargantuan reading all 5 books! Hence why i've put off World for the moment.
Truth be told, I've never been a fan of the idea of Wylla traveling with Ned, but the more I think about it, he had to have had a wetnurse if Jon was born anywhere south of the Neck.
Granted, Jon may have been born in the North, but then, that would make the Starfall cover story all the more peculiar.
I can't see J&W not being mentioned with Ned, more so with Lady Dustin. But his whole journey north is convoluted! Did he stop by KL? With J, W, bones and horse in tow? Haha, I think not! J&W was probably either sent by boat w/o Ned (fits best), or (full tinfoil) J was always in White Harbor with W. Regarding the latter, I agree with your last statement here!
"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children." "That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.
Mayhaps the port tale did spread? No evidence of it spreading of course, but if it had spread off-page it would help to explain the relative ambiguity of Jon's parentage for people like Catelyn and Cersei. Conflicting reports to sow doubt in the Dayne tale.
True! Enough to spread doubt some of the Dorne story, but falling far short of making Ned + fishermans daughter believable. The FD have to be a false identity to have any truth to it.
OOOOh, patting my self on the back for managing the quick quote ting well!
He shure does! You forgot one interesting boat: the Shy Maid. Shy wolf + maid with laughing eyes = Shy maid? And onboard we find Lemore... Who is anything but a shy maid! Not shure she is Ashara tough. I did see a poster on W or Reddit who pointed out Lemore being linked to the turtles in the river, and Estermont has that in their sigil. (Oh gods, I've now got a virtual zoo in my head after reading these books!) But is any Estermont women missing? When it comes to GRRM I'm inclined to only believe on-paper deaths regarding important people, so I file Ashara's death in the suspicious folder.
Hi! I didn't forget the Shy Maid as much as I ignored it. I was looking for connections to the Fisherman's daughter (who I think could be Ashara, Lyanna or Wylla), Ned, and the trip from the Vale, through Sisterton and onto White Harbor and the Wolf's Den (built by one King Jon Stark). Those things all are told to us in Davos's several chapters in aDwD.
But you are correct that the Shy Maid rolling down the Rhoyne does make a person think of Ned (shy) and Ashara (maid). That is a connection that I have seen used as hints that Aegon is the child of Ned and Ashara. I personally don't think that is possible, since Aegon has the light hair we associate with the Targaryen's, and both Ned and Ashara are dark haired. Aegon's eye color works as Ashara has purple eyes. GRRM seems to use very simple genetics, and hair and eye color come from one parent or the other. So while I think Jon could be the child of Ned and Ashara based on his coloring, I discount Daenerys or Aegon based on their coloring. Unless GRRM has more complicated genetics going on that I have noted. That is certainly possible, and I would love if somebody could point out a child that does not seem to have a direct hair or eye color from one of their bio-parents.
I have considered the possibility that Ned and Ashara might have helped place Aegon/fAegon/Young Griff on the Shy Maid, while neither is his parent, and that is their connection to that boat.
And the whole Robb and JW story is, well, perhaps telling. Tywin's plan hinges on Robb doing just what he did out of honor, being his father's son. Could Ned have done the same only in reverse? This could tie in the fisherman's daughter?
Trying to figure out the parallel's and inversions could drive me mad. Which is which? Could Ned have "dishonored" a highborn woman and married her, as the parallel with Robb, or made the beast with two backs with a low born woman and didn't marry her, as the inversion to Robb? Or neither? It could drive me crazy trying to figure it out!
Two sad people with nothing to do but mourn might decide there is a more enjoyable way to spend their time. Robb+Jeyne had that kind of origin, and it would make for a great parallel with Ned+Wylla. It works for Ned+Ashara too of course.
Ashara had just lost a brother (and possibly a lover, if she had been Rhaegar's paramour). Ned clearly feels bad for his part in Arthur's death. Combined with his sister's, the two might certainly have a lot of shared grief.
Grief sex would be certainly possible, but I doubt that a child could have been born from that union, considering the timeline after the ToJ. Unless that child is not Jon, Dany or Aegon. Allyria is a possibility, but Ned Dayne is too young.
While intriguing, both of these theories are contradicted by Edric Dayne. I can't say I fully buy Edric's story, but it is difficult to understand what he's talking about, and why he would be taught what he was taught
I think young Ned Dayne's story has a hint of "practice" to it. Not that he has practiced it, but he has parroted a story that was told to him, a story that doesn't quite ring true to me.
We don't know if Wylla was at Starfall before the rebellion, so Ashare could have returned there with her. Mind, I'm not shure when or where Jon was born, but I have this nagging feeling that Jon is older than Robb.
Agree! I don't think he is much older, but I would bet Jon is older that Robb. Whether he is legitimate is hard to say.
Confession time, I bought the books in March and are on my first reread of got (but keep distracting my self with theories in the net...). I do have a good memory! Still, the info dump is gargantuan reading all 5 books! Hence why i've put off World for the moment.
We all have to start some where, some time. I didn't read aGoT until after the first season of the show, so I suppose I was "soiled" too. I hadn't even heard of the books until HBO put the story on my radar. Then I kept pace until season 3. I knew the Red Wedding was coming, but I hadn't read it. I actually bog down every time I get close to that and Ned's execution. It's painful! I had finished the books by the time season 4 started, and I relished the Purple Wedding! Still do!
Now, I have read the books multiple times (almost obsessively) trying to figure the puzzle out! It's a slippery slope!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me." Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?" "Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."
whilst Ned definitely says that Wylla is Jon's mother, he also says that she is a wet nurse, who has served for years and years... me-thinks that she is more resident wet nurse than anything else and therefor was Jon's wet nurse, not his mother. On both ends of the continent Ashara's name has been silenced.
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her." "Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …" Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."
I read the bold italics as Ned's throw away line to ensure the conversation with Robert will go no further as exemplified by the bold text. Robert tells Ned he must have 'forgotten his honor' and Ned agrees with him to end the conversation, in other words 'yeah, yeah, sure thing mate, drop it.'
Ned's way to once again shut down any talk about Jon's mother.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."