Post by voice on May 6, 2017 16:46:24 GMT
diligence: Ned returning Dawn
loyalty: Edric being nicknamed Ned.
True, true. It may have simply been the return of Dawn that made House Dayne agree to sully the reputation of their wetnurse, and attach milk-brotherhood to Jon Snow, but that seems off to me.
Was Dawn that important to Wylla? It may well have been, but if Wylla agreed to provide a cover story, this seems like a very personal agreement between young lord Eddard and young lowborn Wylla. And that is where it seems a bit more involved. How was Eddard able to know that Wylla would keep faith over the decades, a country away?
Ned and Ashara's romance:
well know at WF but not allowed to be discussed in front of Ned's family, ie the children, protection for Cat's offspring's rights
well know at Starfall but its outcome hidden to preserve Ned's secret. Probably for the same reason as above: protection for Cat's offspring's rights.
This is a very good argument. The logic would make sense for both houses.
One issue that comes to mind is that Ned spoke of Wylla to Robert, but I don't think he talked about her much at WF. If he had, it might have helped end the whispers of "Ashara Dayne".
Instead of replacing those rumors with the Wylla truth/cover story, he admonished those who spoke such rumors with lordly authority.
It reminds me of:
"A folly," sighed Tyrion. "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."
Per Tyrion's logic, we might conclude that Ned feared the whispers of Ashara Dayne, and this is where the plot thickens. If Wylla is merely a cover story Ned does not enjoy repeating, what is Ashara?
Jon, as the bastard ( i hate this word!!) is left with his dreams.
I must again admire Tyrion's logic on such hatred:
"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
It was not easy for Jon to turn down legitimacy and lordship of Winterfell, yet he did. I think this marked the beginning of a turning point for Jon's character that we had not seen before. I think he began to accept his bastardy and not see it as a handicap. Now that he is bleeding to death, I think he will come to accept his illegitimate parentage on a deeper level.
If/when he wakes, I think he will finally know who/what he is. His bastardy will be his strength, and never a weakness. He will be armored in ice, true to his name of Snow.
AS far as the source of the loyalty and diligence, either it is as simple as the romance and its outcome or - much more interesting - it goes back to the LN and Dawn.
This is my hope as well, and would help to explain the Starfall-side of the secret. The part that still raises my eyebrow is the forbidding of Ashara Dayne's name.
i changed them to blue text but forgot to update my comment!
It is! It's the coding format that boggles my mind though, as a non-fluent in computer language. My attic is kinda full and jumbled at the moment (including a sigil zoo of all things!) so all the brackets and stuff makes it hard to see what is where. But I'll get it in time!
You must be using the little "Quick Reply" box:
While useful, I prefer "Preview Mode". You can view/write your post while seeing how it will look when posted if you click on the "Reply" button over to the right of "Quick Reply".
Clicking "Reply" will not post your reply yet, it just takes you to the fuller "Create Post" window. What I usually do is Quick Quote all the things I'm replying to, then click that "Reply" button to the right of "Quick Quote". All the quick quotes are included in the "Create Post" window and it's easier to format and see what things look like as you're typing.
I can be a book-snob too. When the modern version of Jason Bourne came out I had a very hard time accepting it since I had read the books many times (I haven't seen the non-book film, and probably never will). Tow different animals.
The upside of being soiled is that I began looking for things on my first read. It goes both ways!
WoW does seem to take it's time still; I'm looking forward to it of course, but for me it gives me more time for the 5 book out so far. *Taking the good with the bad*
That's all we can do. At this point, I'm just hoping that there is a book six someday, and that it is written solely by GRRM.
Seen that. Also it's a "history" book, and most historians is kinda like a court historian, and must be taken with different quantities of salt.
Word.
If you're ever looking for a good American history book, I recommend A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. Good stuff.
Same feeling here. The silent sisters is a southron thing, and Neds way is the northeren way. Arryn had a big influense on him, still his foundation is the North.
It would be much easier to send Jon and Wylla on their way while he did the rest of his duties.
True. The part that makes me think that Ned accompanied Jon to Winterfell, is this:
He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
Catelyn may well have been thinking in hyperbole, but I think it is a very plausible image: Ned returns home with his bastard, calling him "son" for all his lords and bannermen to see.
It seems like a very Ned-thing to do, nobly and bravely meeting a situation that had fallen short of his ideals.
LOL! Well, Maester Aemon did tell him to kill the boy. So will the man arise?
To the former, we only hear this from Jon re: bastards IIRC. Other bastardly characteristics from other places/POV doesn't mention that. *Pondering*
LOL! Yes, so Jon finally killed the boy.
While we only hear it from Jon, he's quoting Maester Luwin. And Benjen agrees with him!
But yes, there's no way bastards grow up faster than other children. Unless, the noble families are so inbred that they have stunted growth processes, which is certainly possible.
Cheeky bastard! At least you didn't make me think horrible thoughts... I'll just go back to
LOL! Hopefully we'll have some new words and wind to read soon.
Little P.S. here: one of those is Gendry. Reason for Lyanna to rebell against Robert if he got a wench pregnant?
Nice interp! Wish we had more info on Gendry's mother. I think it's interesting that we meet Mya Stone at the Vale. She's likely the bastard that made Lyanna originally balk at her betrothal to Robert.
As a canon-rider I have to point out that we don't know if the soldiers came to Starfall. Rumors is easily started, as LF does in Highgardens army.
Quite true. In my head-canon, Ned and Howland went to Starfall alone, with Dawn, after learning from the dying Arthur Dayne that Lyanna was there.
If it benefits both it's logical. We simply don't know the Dayne's reason(s). So here enters Edric's nickname. While it might be a somewhat common nickname, animosity would logically have them discourage that.
Well said, particularly the bold. How does the return of Dawn make up for the killing of Arthur, and the suicide of Ashara? While we might doubt Ned's role in the latter, House Dayne has taught their lord, Ned Dayne, that Ned Stark caused Ashara's broken heart which led her to commit suicide.
And Ned Stark himself takes credit for the death of Arthur.
Yet there is no animosity between the Daynes and Starks.
Dawn is important, we think, and surely the return of the sword was meaningful, impactful, and worthy of appreciation. But this does not explain House Dayne's seeming lack of animosity for the deaths of two of its most precious members.