Post by jt1960 on Nov 9, 2017 6:23:02 GMT
This originated after several book readings, web articles too many to count, and this piece
uproxx.com/hitfix/did-game-of-thrones-just-give-away-a-crucial-detail-about-the-origin-of-the-others/.
Moat Cailin
From the ASOIAF wiki
"Raised by the ancient First Men,[3], it is claimed that Moat Cailin has defended against southern invasions for ten thousand years.[4]
According to myth, the children of the forest attempted to use Moat Cailin to hold back the flood of invading First Men.[5]
When that failed due to the humans' superior numbers, the children attempted to shatter the Neck by working powerful magics from the Children's Tower and
separate the north from the south in the same manner they shattered the Arm of Dorne.
The children failed and only succeeded in flooding it, however, creating bogs and swamps.
The Marsh Kings and their crannogmen held Moat Cailin, sometimes with the assistance of the Barrow Kings, Red Kings, and Kings of Winter, against
all attacks from the south.[6] The swampy terrain was enough to prevent Moat Cailin from falling in the Andal invasion. It was a key defense of the north[7] against
which the Andal armies threw themselves time after time with no success. The Kings of Winter from House Stark eventually defeated the Marsh Kings,
adding Moat Cailin to the realm of Winterfell.[8]
The three remaining towers are more than capable of defending the passage to the south, provided that they are fully manned.[1]"
To me this does not make sense. If the first men raised Moat Cailin why would they turn around and allow the COF
to use it to try and stop the flood of invading first men?
The construction is far more advanced than what the first men built as well. It seems closer to the ancient cities of Essos such as
Asshai.
Is there any meaning in the initial phrase "ancient First Men" and just "First Men"?
If the Moat was built by a neolithic culture such the one that built Stonehenge and other neolithic structures in our history where did the
black basalt stones they used come from? Dragonstone? I cannot find any mention of such stone in Westeros aside from Dragonstone, although the
north beyond the wall is possible.
Timeline issues
The timeline presented in the wiki presents several challenges. We know that the seasons and
years are all messed up so there is no clear way to say just how long anything has existed.
In our history the rise of Neolithic( Stone Age ) cultures began around 8000 bc reaching its apogee between 3000 bc
and 2000 bc. The Bronze age then begins and lasted until about 1100bc in the middle east and 700bc in Britain which was
the most isolated part of Europe.
In GOT the bronze age apparently lasts from 12000 to 6000 years before the conquest, which seems improbable. Once metallurgy began with the
bronze age the leap to iron should have followed fairly quickly...say about 1000-2000yrs.
"Raised by the ancient First Men,[3], it is claimed that Moat Cailin has defended against southern invasions for ten thousand years." per wiki
If Moat Cailen defended against southern attacks for 10,000 yrs that would place its construction
during the period of the Signing of the Pact between the first men and the COF, after the time when it was used by the COF to break the
land bridge. That cannot be right.
My Tinfoil Thoughts
To me the Moat was built by a people who predate the first men who had rather advanced building skills but
possibly little or no metallurgcal knowledge. Kind of like the builders of Stonehenge or Meso-American civilizations.
Just who these people were is unknown but there are hints in the books concerning the Crannogmen which I will post in part 2.
Part two
uproxx.com/hitfix/did-game-of-thrones-just-give-away-a-crucial-detail-about-the-origin-of-the-others/.
Moat Cailin
From the ASOIAF wiki
"Raised by the ancient First Men,[3], it is claimed that Moat Cailin has defended against southern invasions for ten thousand years.[4]
According to myth, the children of the forest attempted to use Moat Cailin to hold back the flood of invading First Men.[5]
When that failed due to the humans' superior numbers, the children attempted to shatter the Neck by working powerful magics from the Children's Tower and
separate the north from the south in the same manner they shattered the Arm of Dorne.
The children failed and only succeeded in flooding it, however, creating bogs and swamps.
The Marsh Kings and their crannogmen held Moat Cailin, sometimes with the assistance of the Barrow Kings, Red Kings, and Kings of Winter, against
all attacks from the south.[6] The swampy terrain was enough to prevent Moat Cailin from falling in the Andal invasion. It was a key defense of the north[7] against
which the Andal armies threw themselves time after time with no success. The Kings of Winter from House Stark eventually defeated the Marsh Kings,
adding Moat Cailin to the realm of Winterfell.[8]
The three remaining towers are more than capable of defending the passage to the south, provided that they are fully manned.[1]"
To me this does not make sense. If the first men raised Moat Cailin why would they turn around and allow the COF
to use it to try and stop the flood of invading first men?
The construction is far more advanced than what the first men built as well. It seems closer to the ancient cities of Essos such as
Asshai.
Is there any meaning in the initial phrase "ancient First Men" and just "First Men"?
If the Moat was built by a neolithic culture such the one that built Stonehenge and other neolithic structures in our history where did the
black basalt stones they used come from? Dragonstone? I cannot find any mention of such stone in Westeros aside from Dragonstone, although the
north beyond the wall is possible.
Timeline issues
The timeline presented in the wiki presents several challenges. We know that the seasons and
years are all messed up so there is no clear way to say just how long anything has existed.
In our history the rise of Neolithic( Stone Age ) cultures began around 8000 bc reaching its apogee between 3000 bc
and 2000 bc. The Bronze age then begins and lasted until about 1100bc in the middle east and 700bc in Britain which was
the most isolated part of Europe.
In GOT the bronze age apparently lasts from 12000 to 6000 years before the conquest, which seems improbable. Once metallurgy began with the
bronze age the leap to iron should have followed fairly quickly...say about 1000-2000yrs.
"Raised by the ancient First Men,[3], it is claimed that Moat Cailin has defended against southern invasions for ten thousand years." per wiki
If Moat Cailen defended against southern attacks for 10,000 yrs that would place its construction
during the period of the Signing of the Pact between the first men and the COF, after the time when it was used by the COF to break the
land bridge. That cannot be right.
My Tinfoil Thoughts
To me the Moat was built by a people who predate the first men who had rather advanced building skills but
possibly little or no metallurgcal knowledge. Kind of like the builders of Stonehenge or Meso-American civilizations.
Just who these people were is unknown but there are hints in the books concerning the Crannogmen which I will post in part 2.
Part two