The Dornishman's Wife

I have seen some of this Qorgyle/Mance connection theory previously from FFR, and I agree it makes some great deductions from the clues in the text.

This theory really does make sense of some of inconsistency's in Mance's background. His link to the Night's Watch, and culture both north and south of the wall.

Also the idea that his "knee's don't bend easily" could be attributed to House Qorgyle of Dorne, and it seems no Dornish knees bend very easy.

I love the idea of the sigil and reverse colors for a bastard. I much prefer this idea than Mance is Rhaegar.

And if Qorgyle loved the song "The Dornishman's Wife" he might have taught it to a young Mance. It seems Mance is rather fond of the song, and it's variations. Maybe some day we will get a tid bit of Qorgyle being a bit of a singer himself.

This is something I have never heard before, and it makes some sense. It would be a strong connection between she and Mance if she nursed him back to health.

But did he leave the watch for her, or did he leave for other reasons, because part of me thinks, like Jon, Mance's mission north of the wall is far more complicated that just plain old desertion and lust and freedom. If Qorgyle was Mance's father, did he give Mance a mission, similar to Qhorin giving Jon a mission. "You must not balk, whatever is asked of you." It's certainly possible that Mance might have left the watch for a woman, but what if it was Dalla that gave Mance his mission north of the wall. It's tinfoily, but another possibility.

Also, I have always wondered if Dalla and Val are truly sisters by blood, or if they are "sisters" in the way that the Nights Watch men are "brothers"?

If they are actually sisters by blood, what are the odd's that it is they that carry "kingsblood", and by claiming Dalla, this helped Mance's standing with the freefolk, earning their respect and following.

This probably doesn't matter at all in the long run, but I have always been curious about Mance's tent, crowned with the horns of a giant elk. Now, looking at this quote, I wonder if those horns belong to the very same "fine big elk" that Mance was skinning when he injured himself. He seems like a man who makes deliberate choices, and if he felt like this elk led to a new path for him, leaving the watch and joining the freefolk and claiming a woman to love, then he might crown his tent with the horns of the very same elk that started it all. And if it's not the same set of horns, is it possible that elk that lead to the daughter of the wisewoman is the inspiration for the giant elk horns that crown Mance's tent?

I have wondered if it was possible if Mance was one of the brothers of the Nights Watch who was noted to be at Harrenhal, possibly enticing Benjen to want to join?

Well, that other option is just a theory, same as this one. We haven't had much proof yet, just a bunch of theories, some more accepted than others. Do you have a link to that other theory. I have seen the Order of the Green Hand videos about a great conspiracy of players north of the wall, and that theory claims that Mance's Dalla is the same Dalla at Dragonstone in the Clash Prologue, but as there are not descriptors, it's hard to say. It's possibly the same Dalla, but it's just as possibly not.

I mean, there are about a dozen Pate's mentioned in the story and they are not all the same person.

However, I do wonder why Mance and Dalla haven't had more children if they have been together for eight or nine years. It's possible that she is much younger than him, and he needed for her to grow up before he could claim her? Maybe Mance's seed is NOT strong? Moon tea north of the wall? It is possible that they just met recently, but I don't know what would even hint at that.

Winter was when Jon and Robb were "babes in arms" which is who the heck knows how many years old (but maybe 4 or 5), so that sounds about right. I would guess it was maybe even longer than that, as I don't think the Greyjoy rebellion would have been fought in Winter, so it had to be either just before or just after that rebellion. My guess is before. Actually, if this summer has lasted 10 years, and the Greyjoy rebellion was nine years ago, then it was fought a year or two after the last winder ended. I think Sansa was the only child of Ned and Cat's that was born in the Winter, and I think that is going to be important in her story. After all, it is the winter weather and snow storm in the Eyrie that seems to invigorate her and bring her back to who she truly is.

If Qorgyle came just before his death, is it because he needed to tell something to Ned that must be exchanged between the Lord of Winterfell and the Nights Watch Lord Commander, and if so, what was that information? And was it at this time that Mance became obsessed with something in the crypts of Winterfell, which I think he is. Was the mission with Qorgyle a cover for Mance to attempt to find something. Three times in ten years that we know of, Mance has come to Winterfell, and I believe he is looking for something important to the long night 2.0, but I am not sure if it's to stop it or start it.


No, there is another recruiter whose name is Conwy, who is mentioned several times, and another named Geuren, who is mentioned once in Game. This is the same idea that Jon tried with Dareon, but that did not work out. It's possible that Mance pulled a Dareon and while out on assignment, fled north of the wall. But why would he flee north? So much smarter to head to Essos, even if you have to drag your wildling wife.


I think there are plenty of things missing from the story that Howland tells his children, which is almost in code, and what really happened at Harrenhal and the Isle of Faces. I do think it's possible that Lyanna could have meet Mance there. They might have been around the same age, and Mance might not even had taken Watch vows yet. Hard to say how old he is, but 40 is a safe bet, give or take a few, but I am almost as bad as Tyrion at guessing ages. I once though he must be in his 40's for certain.

Why would Howland need a shield, spear and shirt of bronze scales (armor) to go to the Isle of Faces to see the green men? Are the green men enemies of most people? Will they kill to protect or hide something on the Isle of Faces?


I don't see how this could be the same shield as the KotLT. A shield would have to be heavy wood and iron to survive the blow's of a coming lance, leather would not be sturdy enough, and I can't imagine that not one of those knights landed a blow. But maybe...

If it was the same shield, and it had magic properties, then why would he leave it behind? If the shield was magic, could it have cast a spell on the person who found it? Wasn't that Rhaegar? 

I really do think Howland has an agenda and was up to something, but it's hard to say what. I also think it's possible that Howland can fight just fine, as we see with Meera, so if he let those squires bully him, it could have been to draw the attention and favor of the Starks. So many possibilities!

As to why he would need a shield, I thought you meant that he feared something in the Gods Eye, not on the path he took to get to it. I rather like the idea that maybe the Green Men are up to no good. Or are at least very, very manipulative. Rather like the maesters!

I myself am not certain that either Jon or Dany has connections to Dorne. It is certainly possible, as many people think Jon was born either at the toj or at Starfall, (I am not one of those people) and that Dany's memories of lemon's indicates that she spent time in Dorne. A lemon tree could be growing in a temperate climate that is not Dorne, or it could be growing in a colder climate with the help of a glass garden. We know that Winterfell has a glass garden, so I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility to think that other cold-climate places could have a lemon tree growing under a glass roof. Jon and Dany do seem to have connections to Mormont's as part of their developmental stage. One thing that I think is interesting in regards to lemons is that Jon tells us the Jeor Mormont drinks lemon's in his beer every day. Now, is that something Jeor has done since becoming Lord Commander or is that a lifelong habit, and if it is a lifelong habit, does it support the idea that Bear Island might have it's own lemon tree? Dany has some interesting allusions to ice and cold in her story, so I don't think everything about her comes from warm weather people or places. Just theories and thoughts, of course, and nothing concrete but I don't think GRRM is building an easy backstory for her. Or Jon!

ETA: To be clear, I am open and interested in theories that connect Jon and Dany to Dorne and am always interested in reading through them, I just see other possibilities that I think might fit differently within the story.

The idea of connecting Mance to House Qorgyle is one that I like, and it serves as a good counter theory to the connection of Mance to House Targaryen or Blackfyre. It's not nearly as obvious but the clues are laid in the text, and that is something that GRRM is so good at. Leading us down a more obvious path while showing us the true path, but we don't see it because we have followed the more obvious ideas. If Mance is Qorgyle's son, we do have precedents set about a Lord Commander having a bastard son and attempting to make that son the next LC, so perhaps if Qorgyle tried tried to do this recently, that would be a reason for the watch to keep it hush. Or perhaps that was Qorgyle's plan but Mance decided to change the plan by deserting before this could happen? Or perhaps Mance was in the running for election after Qorgyle died but Mormont was elected instead? We are told that LC Runcel Hightower attempted to leave the leadership of the watch to his bastard son in Jon's POV, and the World Book tells us this was approx 500 years ago. We don't have much in detail, but I think that information drop serves a purpose. Perhaps it relates to a recent LC (Mormont, Qorgyle and Bloodraven are the most recent that I know of, and Mormont didn't attempt to do this, unless we find out Jon is his bastard. So, I think it could connect Mance to either Qorgyle or Bloodraven. Now, depending on how long Qorgyle served at LC, we might be missing one or s-everal LC's that could apply, although Qorgyle and Mance have a connection in the text, as we know they traveled to Winterfell together, approx 8-10 years before our story starts.

I have also heard theories that link Mance to somehow being related to Aemon Targaryen, although grandson seems to fit that idea better than son.

The purpose of hiding this information? I don't know, but we don't really know how of the information we have been given, even in small hints, will related to one another in the end, so it's hard to say.


I don't think Qhorin was blind so he would have seen the writing on the wall. Once he was captured by the wildlings, his death was guaranteed, and not in a pleasant way, no doubt. So that part at least makes sense. Now, as to why Qhorin chose Jon (and Ghost, although perhaps having a warg familiar was enough of a reason) to go on the ranging with him is a bigger question in my eyes. Jon is a Stark and has a direwolf, but he is young and very inexperienced. I think he is the only member of that party that isn't a Ranger, which is another oddity. And Mormont seems to defer to this plan of Qhorin's rather easily. Why would Mormont give up the young man he had just recently made his steward? There seems to be some connections or pieces of information that we are missing.

I am not sure that I believe the story about how Qhorin lost his fingers, but your mention of the fingerdance of the Iron Born is interesting and one I had not thought of, although I can't imagine Qhorin tripping off to the Iron Islands for vacation and deciding to participate in the fingerdance just to pass the time. Qhorin's backstory is a mystery, and for the role he plays in Jon's arc, I think we are missing some important information. Qhorin has grey eyes, is serious, neat, clean shaven and wears his hair tied back neatly in a braid, which actually hints at the Dothraki to me. Do we hear of any other men braiding their hair? I am not saying that Qhorin is Dothraki, but that hair choice is interesting to me. Qhorin does have a strong connection to Mance as they were once quite good friends. There are seeds of a conspiracy theory in all of this, but I am not sure how it all connects.

I do think it's possible that Mance could have been at Harrenhal, but how old is he now, and how old would he have been then? And the backstory that Selyse tells us she heard is that Mance's father is a Night's Watch member and his mother a member of the freefolk. But if that is the case, why does Osha not feel like Mance is a wildling? I would think that if his mother was a wildling, then the wildling's would think of Mance in some way, as a wildling too? Maybe Mance's mother was from south of the wall? Still, Mance's reason for deserting because he could not wear his black cloak mended with red silk is just as silly as Jon claiming his reason for desertion is because he was seated at the back of the hall at the feast of Winterfell. It's a reason, but not a very good one. I doubt Mance really bought Jon's story, and I don't think we should buy Mance's story. There is something that we are missing, and I think we just need to wait for more information from GRRM.


One possibility is that Mance is searching for the Horn of Winter in Winterfell's crypts, but I am not sold on this. For just years and years and years, I have felt like the sword Dawn is in Winterfell's crypts. I think that is something that could be calling to Jon in his dreams, and one of the reason Ned feels the KoW are looking at him with disapproval. Mance has shown us (via his Rattleshirt glamour) that he is incredibly talented with a greatsword. There are not many missing greatswords in this story, and Dawn is one of them. Dawn seems to have magic or mythical properties, and if Ned brought it back north with him, or if it was already in the north, which is wear I think the toj showdown might have happened, then that might be the reason for Mance's frequent trips to Winterfell. At least three trips in 10 or so years, that we know of, and perhaps there are more. And two of them as a wildling that would be killed on site if discovered, means whatever he is looking for is important. But I think the Horn of Winter is something that Mance is using as an excuse. Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. But I think the Horn of Winter is important to the story, but to Jon and the Stark kings in the crypts. I don't think it wakes giants or will bring the wall down. Something about that horn relates to waking the sleepers, and I think that horn is with Samwell in Oldtown. Now, I think the "sleepers" are the Stark's in the crypts, but it could also relate to the idea of the dead Night's Watch buried in the wall, or even what is buried under the barrow's of the north, or all dead buried and "sleeping".

I have to tell you I wonder what happens if the Night's Watch vow is repeated in the Stark crypts? We know there is magic in the words in relation to the Black Gate, so why not speculation a bit on those same words in relation to the Stark's, the ancient King's of Winter. whose bones are buried and their stone likeness is given an iron sword to bind them to their graves. Or are the swords weapons to use when the stone sleeper's rise?

As to what Dalla and Val might be up to, and how they are actually connected to each other, is something that I think will have to wait until we get more information from the author. But I trust Val no more than I trust Melisandre. But I am suspicious by nature, so that might be unfair of me...

It is, and from season 1.
The acting in that scene is so admirable that this phrase comes across as bookcanon.
A real tribute to the actors!   

added- How strange. the word bookcanon was converted, not by me, to a link to some shop.  
What is going on?  
Added- and again.  
Added- I put book before the other word and the link is removed.  Has this happened here before, I mean to say, words being converted into commercial links?

For quite some time, I have wondered if this little tidbit about Rennifer Longwaters isn't a hint to us about some Stark heritage, as well. We hear of a King called Edrick Snowbeard. He is usually referred to as Edrick Snowbeard but once is referred to as Edrick Stark. Or it seems like this is the same king. He had a long reign but needed the help of his great-grandson (Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark) at the end to keep things in line. I have wondered if Snowbeard isn't a nod to Edrick being a bastard Stark, a Snow, and when raised to be King of Winter/King in the North, he became known as Snowbeard to distinguish himself from other Snow's in the North. Perhaps not, but maybe... At first I assumed it was a nickname but the more I think about the Longwaters story, the more I wonder!

It would be even more interesting if this Edrick Snowbeard was a Stark bastard descended from the female line, as we learn of the Longwaters and their decent from Princess Elaena Targaryen. The Plumm's also descend from Elaena, she was married to a Penrose and bore four children, and then married a Manwoody from Dorne whom she had no children with but is said to have loved. This Michael Manwoody is known for playing the harp and his love of music, as well as being a warrior. I think these idea's about Michael Manwoody sound a bit like Prince Rhaegar and again I wonder a bit about the truth of Rhaegar's parentage. (Sorry, I slipped into a bit of a rabbit hole, ooops!)

Another interesting thought I have on Princess Elaena, is of her time in the maidenvault with ber white and golden dragon egg. Would time turn that egg to cream and gold, and is that the egg that become Viserion? Viserion's egg is described as "pale cream streaked with gold". Viserys himself was silver haired and died from gaining his golden crown. Viserys Plumm is the ancestor of Brown Ben Plumm and Viserion seems fond of Brown Ben. It all seems connected. Elaena's mother was a Velaryon and Elaena herself had two bastard children with her Velaryon cousin Alyn (who was a bastard that was legitimized by Rhaenerya during the Dance, although he never claimed a dragon, he lived through burns from dragonfire). I think the Velaryon blood is important, maybe more so than the Targaryen blood. (that rabbit hole is hard to get out of!)