For quite some time, I have wondered if this little tidbit about Rennifer Longwaters isn't a hint to us about some Stark heritage, as well.
I think the context makes the meaning clear. Ser Jaime is making a fruitless search into the hidden tunnels and passageways of the Red Keep, just as old Rennifer burbles an about the past royalty of his family.
And both Rennifer and Ser Jaime miss the real clew to the mysterious disappearance of Varys and Tyrion. Obviously, Jaime knows more than Rennifer, but neither twig to Varys' double life.
- Mance's father is a man of the NW - his mother was either a common woman (according to Selyse) or a wildling woman - we're told that when he left the Watch, he was only going home - Osha says that Mance is not a wildling, that he has never seen a winter north of the Wall - Osha's statement is born out by the fact that we can place Mance in the NW when he comes to Winterfell with LC Qorgoyle and sees Rob and Jon as boys
The Ranging:
- we're told that Mance was found with a group of raiders that the Watch went out to confront - if he was a wilding boy, why wasn't he put to death with the rest? - if Mance was the son of a man of the Watch with status and importance, was the real purpose of the ranging to retrieve the boy?
Mance's Cloak:
- we're told that Mance's cloak was torn in three places and repaired with red silk - that has led many to speculate that this represents the red and black of the Targs or the Blackfyre's - FreyFamilyReunion points out that the sigil of House Qorgoyle is three black scorpions on a field of red; the colors would be reversed for a bastard.
The Song:
- for some reason Jon remembers the song the Dornishman's Wife when he thinks Mel is burning Mance at the stake - if LC Qorgoyle is Mance's father; could he be the Dornishman's blade of the song - is the song about the ranging to retrieve Mance from the wildlings?
I still prefer my Mance as a descendant of Bloodraven theory but this works very well in my opinion. Especially the bit about the colors reversal for a bastard.
Also the idea that his "knee's don't bend easily" could be attributed to House Qorgyle of Dorne, and it seems no Dornish knees bend very easy.
Agreed. I have also felt that there were a lot of similarities between Northern between Northerns and Dornish. I guess that would apply to the Dornish and the Wildlings as well.
I love the idea of the sigil and reverse colors for a bastard. I much prefer this idea than Mance is Rhaegar.
And if Qorgyle loved the song "The Dornishman's Wife" he might have taught it to a young Mance. It seems Mance is rather fond of the song, and it's variations. Maybe some day we will get a tid bit of Qorgyle being a bit of a singer himself.
Everything is better than Mance is Rhaegar...
Indeed, gives the song more context and meaning if it was passed on from his father.
In another discussion, someone has advised me that Mance met Dalla on his way back from Winterfell to see the king. So the daughter of the wood's witch doesn't pan out.
I am fairly certain this is correct but I would need to go check.
If Qorgyle came just before his death, is it because he needed to tell something to Ned that must be exchanged between the Lord of Winterfell and the Nights Watch Lord Commander, and if so, what was that information? And was it at this time that Mance became obsessed with something in the crypts of Winterfell, which I think he is. Was the mission with Qorgyle a cover for Mance to attempt to find something. Three times in ten years that we know of, Mance has come to Winterfell, and I believe he is looking for something important to the long night 2.0, but I am not sure if it's to stop it or start it.
I don't think that is the case however it reminds me in part of my greater Dornish plot theory. Oberyn as some people might recall squired for House Qorgyle in his youth and is in early 40's when he enters our story. One of the Night's Watch ships is called the Storm Crow. I pegged it as the ship Qorygle used when he traveled to join the Night's Watch. Mayhaps Oberyn spent some time on the Wall. Oberyn has traveled quite extensively in his youth. Then the idea that Oberyn named his mercenary band after a ship of his former mentor just fit for me.
Sorry if its a bit off topic.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
For quite some time, I have wondered if this little tidbit about Rennifer Longwaters isn't a hint to us about some Stark heritage, as well.
I think the context makes the meaning clear. Ser Jaime is making a fruitless search into the hidden tunnels and passageways of the Red Keep, just as old Rennifer burbles an about the past royalty of his family.
And both Rennifer and Ser Jaime miss the real clew to the mysterious disappearance of Varys and Tyrion. Obviously, Jaime knows more than Rennifer, but neither twig to Varys' double life.
Honestly, I have come to think of many of the lines of text that GRRM writes as having alternate meanings or possibilities. This comment about Rennifer hints several things to me. One that is pretty obvious is that he is descended from an illegitimate Targaryen princess? But if this is the case, then how many other people could be?
It also teases us with bastard names of the 7K and how there can be alterations of bastard names, because it's still seen a better alternative than just having a bastard surname. This makes me question Edrick Snowbeard, as I have mentioned above and it makes me think that the Stark Kings have also perhaps descended through an illegitimate line in times of need, either from the female or male line. I still wonder about Brandon Snow, the bastard brother of Torrhen, and how his blood might flow back into the Lord's of Winterfell.
Through this same princess that Rennifer claims to be descended from, we also can find that this same princess is the connection that Brown Ben Plumm has to the Targaryen's. It's possible there are more connections that are hidden more deeply in the story.
It also makes us wonder just what Varys' connection might be the the Targaryen's. Here we have Rennifer (of dragonblood) knowing secret's to the tunnels under the Red Keep. We know that Varys knows the secret's of these tunnels, but we have no idea if he has dragon blood, but he might. We are also told that some secret tunnels were commishioned by a Hand (perhaps Tywin) which could hint that he might have dragon blood, since if he was that hand, then he knew some secret's of the Red Keep. We also have Petyr Baelish who seems to know some secret's around the tunnels of the Red Keep and does that hint that he might have some dragon blood. We also have Arya (and eventually Sansa) (and even Eddard) using some backdoor ways to get in and out of the Red Keep, and could that also hint that they might have some dragon blood? I think so! I think the Lannister's and Stark's carry blood of the dragon, and perhaps the only thing that can heal this torn world is a marriage of the two, which is a tale of the York's and Lancaster's sharing blood of the Angivens/Plantagenet's and eventually peace came after war by the emergence of the House of Tudor, which claimed blood from all three of these lines, but through a child of House York and Lancaster (Tudor), which ruled through the death of Elizibeth I. Of course, true history is far more complicated that this, but it could serve to inspire GRRM. It would not surprise me at all to find that both House Stark and House Lannister shared blood of House Targaryen!
Weirdly enough, I just reread Tyrion's escape from the Red Keep, of course, with Jaime and Varys's help, but there are several mentions and nod's to Eddard's time in the dungeons. IF, and this is a HUGE IF, IF one fallen hand can be smuggled out of the black cells, then why can't another? I think it might be possible that Eddard could have gotten out, based on the hints about him in Tryion's escape chapter. It's so unlikely, especially so much of the story is connected to Ned's execution that it's hard to imagine that GRRM would allow him to live, but I do think it's possible. (especially when GRRM has gone on record about his feelings on Tolkien bringing Gandolf 2.0 back into the story, a much stronger and much improved version of himself). Sometimes, I think this was GRRM's plan all along, but now he is so trapped in a web of all of his own comments, D&D's comments, and how the world has perceived those comments, etc. that he can't bring Ned back. But he want's to, and that was the plan all along, and this might even have something to do with Diana Gabaldon's recent comments on how GRRM alluded to killing off a character he needed. I wonder if this is his shifty way of easing the path for Eddard's reappearance in the story, and he is knowingly either using Gabaldon (or she is in on it) to open this doorway with his fans. It's always seemed odd that he has never addressed the odd comments she made about this subject. Granted, I might be thinking about this too much. And the stories weirdness about Ned and Catelyn both having another child has always felt unfinished to me. What happens if you are born of the dead, thought to be dead or the resurrected? I also see the possibility of Eddard being the resurrected Stark of the story, and Jon having to kill him, probably using fire, just like he did the wight's that attacked Mormont's tower.
Honestly, as far as Eddard goes, I can hardly believe he is alive. If he is alive, where the hell has he been while his family and the north fall apart and bleed? And since he came to both Bran and Rickon in dreams, seems to have spoke to Arya through with weirwood, and appears in Theon's Feast of the Dead dreams, which also play a role in Jon's dreams of looking for Ned and Robb and thinking he is excluded from the Feast because he is a bastard and not a Stark but is really excluded because he is alive, will remain alive, and that he is not able to reach the Feast for that Reason. The only oddity in that dream is that I think Theon had a premonition of Robb's death. The dream I can see, but why the premonition? Just a few things that don't feel over about Ned's story, but part of me is ever the wishful, looking for a HEA ending, but of course, that is not the story that GRRM is telling us most likely! Another thing that feels a bit unfinished is Eddard and Jon's story in regards to Jon's mother. Of course, if Benjen is still alive, and I think he is, Benjen might be able to give Jon the information he needs and he might even be Jonno's father! It's a little possible... but mostely very, very unlikely to occur!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Agreed. I have also felt that there were a lot of similarities between Northern between Northerns and Dornish. I guess that would apply to the Dornish and the Wildlings as well.
I do agree there are many similarities but a big difference is that the north has famously bent the knee to the Targaryen's with Torrhen, the King Who Knelt, and the Stark's have bent the knee since that time, where as I don't know that the people of Dorne really ever have bent the knee. They entered the 7K, after warring for years against the Dragon's, even killed a figurative and real dragon, Rhaenys and Meraxes, and still didn't bend the knee for quite some time. That comment hint's much more to Dorne in my interpretation. Dorne and the wildlings, or at least Mance and his followers.
Indeed, gives the song more context and meaning if it was passed on from his father.
Agreed. And this song does seem VERY important to Mance, so either a hint about his father. Or a possible son, if that turns out to be Jon. Maybe not so much Mance's son by Dalla.
I don't think that is the case however it reminds me in part of my greater Dornish plot theory. Oberyn as some people might recall squired for House Qorgyle in his youth and is in early 40's when he enters our story. One of the Night's Watch ships is called the Storm Crow. I pegged it as the ship Qorygle used when he traveled to join the Night's Watch. Mayhaps Oberyn spent some time on the Wall. Oberyn has traveled quite extensively in his youth. Then the idea that Oberyn named his mercenary band after a ship of his former mentor just fit for me.
Sorry if its a bit off topic.
I love Off Topic! I am The Great Derailer, you know!
Anyway, you are thinking that Oberyn founded the Stormcrow's? Quentyn and Co. did plan on joining the Stormcrow's, so perhaps that links back to Oberyn, who is Quentyn's uncle. And if Oberyn did found this company, what is Daario's connection to Oberyn? Could Daario be Oberyn's bastard, do you think? And if so, Daario has stunning blue or purplish eyes, so who could his mother be? He would not have gotten those eyes from Oberyn?
Can you link to your theory on this, if you have posted it? This would have to do with your theory on Quentyn, as well, I would guess.
I have to say that the idea of Storm in this story links hard in my mind to the Stormlands and not Dorne, but I could be persuaded otherwise, I am sure.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I do agree there are many similarities but a big difference is that the north has famously bent the knee to the Targaryen's with Torrhen, the King Who Knelt, and the Stark's have bent the knee since that time, where as I don't know that the people of Dorne really ever have bent the knee. They entered the 7K, after warring for years against the Dragon's, even killed a figurative and real dragon, Rhaenys and Meraxes, and still didn't bend the knee for quite some time. That comment hint's much more to Dorne in my interpretation. Dorne and the wildlings, or at least Mance and his followers.
Anyway, you are thinking that Oberyn founded the Stormcrow's? Quentyn and Co. did plan on joining the Stormcrow's, so perhaps that links back to Oberyn, who is Quentyn's uncle. And if Oberyn did found this company, what is Daario's connection to Oberyn? Could Daario be Oberyn's bastard, do you think? And if so, Daario has stunning blue or purplish eyes, so who could his mother be? He would not have gotten those eyes from Oberyn?
I don't have a full written theory just drabbles of one. I know some of them are across this site. Yes I think Oberyn founded the Stormcrows. The boat being called Storm Crow is kind of a stretch.
Daario I think (hold my tinfoil) is the actual Quentyn Martell. I think Doran sent his hated enemies a boy that matched his features and then Mellario took him to Norvos when they seperated. We really don't have a description of Mellario but Norvos was created as a Valyrian colony. The smoking gun well physical description is mustachios. Only two groups in Essos are noted to have them. Dothraki and Norvosi. Also plenty of people have dyed their hair and claimed to be from Tyrosh.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I don't have a full written theory just drabbles of one. I know some of them are across this site. Yes I think Oberyn founded the Stormcrows.
So, when picking the name Stormcrow's, you think this is some time of homage to House Qorgyle, whom Oberyn warded with? Or to LC Qorgyle himself? Crow's seem to have imagery of "dark wings, dark words" throughout westeros, but the storm imagery still seems to connect to the stormlands. Now, I will admit that the storm=stormlands is fairly stubbornly planted in my head. It's one the reasons I connect Dany to the Stormlands (either her birth or parentage in my tinfoil), and not to Oberyn or Dorne. Sandstone, the seat of House Qorgyle doesn't sit in the marches or border the stormlands, but I am sure that storm imagery might not just apply to the stormlands, it's just where my mind connects the most. We certainly have rain storms and snow storms and I don't see why we can't have sandstorms in our story!
The boat being called Storm Crow is kind of a stretch.
I am a firm believer that there is a lot of information to be gained from the names of ships and boats in our story. I have not given any thought to the Storm Crow, but I think GRRM likes to give us hints of past happenings through the names of ships, the locations they port in, and little tidbit's about them.
Daario I think (hold my tinfoil) is the actual Quentyn Martell. I think Doran sent his hated enemies a boy that matched his features and then Mellario took him to Norvos when they seperated. We really don't have a description of Mellario but Norvos was created as a Valyrian colony. The smoking gun well physical description is mustachios. Only two groups in Essos are noted to have them. Dothraki and Norvosi. Also plenty of people have dyed their hair and claimed to be from Tyrosh.
Gosh, I knew that was your theory on Quentyn, but for some reason I just spaced it out. Information overload, I suppose! I know we both think that the Quentyn that we meet is a fake. I agree that since we have no idea what Mellario looks like, her children could have many options for hair and eye color and features and characteristics. I do like the idea you have connected to with the mustachios. I never seen it as a hint of who Daario could be, but I thought it might be one reasons that Dany was so attracted to Daario, because his mustachio's reminded her of Drogo's mustachios! Connecting it to Norvos is interesting and certainly worthy of consideration. After all, I have connected the Stark's to Asshai because they are both noted to be solemn in appearance. I think GRRM is quite capable of dropping very subtle hints into the text, and perhaps the mustachios are just that!
ETA: One thing that is interesting with the whole Quentyn, Garris, Archibald coming to meet Dany, is that it is through Daario that they receive the introduction. Now, Daario seems angry that he has been duped by them lying about who they are, but it could be a bigger plot. But if Daario is the real Quentyn, why allow this meeting with the false Quentyn? There is no way that Daario didn't really know who they were or where they came from. I suppose it's possible Daario really didn't know who they were, but I find it unlikely! So, if Daario really is Quentyn, at this point, why doesn't he share the truth with Daenerys. She would have been angry that he lied but she would have married him in an INSTANT!!! The girl has the hot's for him BAD!
Last Edit: Nov 12, 2018 16:24:54 GMT by stdaga: ETA
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
So, when picking the name Stormcrow's, you think this is some time of homage to House Qorgyle, whom Oberyn warded with? Or to LC Qorgyle himself? Crow's seem to have imagery of "dark wings, dark words" throughout westeros, but the storm imagery still seems to connect to the stormlands. Now, I will admit that the storm=stormlands is fairly stubbornly planted in my head. It's one the reasons I connect Dany to the Stormlands (either her birth or parentage in my tinfoil), and not to Oberyn or Dorne. Sandstone, the seat of House Qorgyle doesn't sit in the marches or border the stormlands, but I am sure that storm imagery might not just apply to the stormlands, it's just where my mind connects the most. We certainly have rain storms and snow storms and I don't see why we can't have sandstorms in our story!
Why not both? I mean he squired with them and Oberyn certainly strikes me as the sort who would want to see the Wall. We don't know when LC Qorgyle took the command but it certainly is in the same time period.
We have sandstorms in the past and in anyone attempts to invade Dorne in the final books I bet a sandstorm will make them regret it.
I am a firm believer that there is a lot of information to be gained from the names of ships and boats in our story. I have not given any thought to the Storm Crow, but I think GRRM likes to give us hints of past happenings through the names of ships, the locations they port in, and little tidbit's about them.
Storm Crow (the ship) and Storm Crows (the sellswords) are the only two uses of it that I can find. Also I agree on GRRM giving us ships a greater purpose.
Gosh, I knew that was your theory on Quentyn, but for some reason I just spaced it out. Information overload, I suppose! I know we both think that the Quentyn that we meet is a fake. I agree that since we have no idea what Mellario looks like, her children could have many options for hair and eye color and features and characteristics. I do like the idea you have connected to with the mustachios. I never seen it as a hint of who Daario could be, but I thought it might be one reasons that Dany was so attracted to Daario, because his mustachio's reminded her of Drogo's mustachios! Connecting it to Norvos is interesting and certainly worthy of consideration. After all, I have connected the Stark's to Asshai because they are both noted to be solemn in appearance. I think GRRM is quite capable of dropping very subtle hints into the text, and perhaps the mustachios are just that!
ETA: One thing that is interesting with the whole Quentyn, Garris, Archibald coming to meet Dany, is that it is through Daario that they receive the introduction. Now, Daario seems angry that he has been duped by them lying about who they are, but it could be a bigger plot. But if Daario is the real Quentyn, why allow this meeting with the false Quentyn? There is no way that Daario didn't really know who they were or where they came from. I suppose it's possible Daario really didn't know who they were, but I find it unlikely! So, if Daario really is Quentyn, at this point, why doesn't he share the truth with Daenerys. She would have been angry that he lied but she would have married him in an INSTANT!!! The girl has the hot's for him BAD!
Agreed. Daario's outburst seems more than just a sellsword being lied to. Seems really pissed off about something, like someone trying to steal his marriage. As to why he doesn't come out at that about: 1) I think it could be part of a longer Dornish game. 2) How insane would that sound to Dany and everyone else at that moment? Not to mention self serving.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Storm Crow (the ship) and Storm Crows (the sellswords) are the only two uses of it that I can find. Also I agree on GRRM giving us ships a greater purpose.
All of the sell sword Stormcrow hints come to us in Dany's POV. I do think that is important, somehow. She is the Stormborn. She rides a black dragon which could appear to fit the "dark wings, dark words" atmosphere of the story. As to the ship the Storm Crow, it comes to us from Jon and Sam. We don't get too much information on the boat, that it is a fighting ship, lean and fast, likened to a swift bird of prey, and it seems to be the only surviving ship in relation to what is going on at Hardhome. Storm Crow is also interesting to me because it is associated with the Talon and the Blackbird, other ships of the Night's Watch. For vessel's that are of the sea, I find it interesting that these are named after birds or things associated with birds (or dragons, perhaps).
When doing a casual look for storm and crow in the story, I am reminded of Guyard Morrigan, Guyard the Green of Renly's Rainbow Guard, who's family sigil is a crow in flight against a storm-green sky. House Morrigan calls the stormlands home. It's hard for me not to see stormland in association, but it's possible Storm Crow is a hint to us that there will be a storm among the crows (black brother's), which seems to be occurring at the end of Dance. The Morrigan of Irish myth is associated with crows and is a great goddess associated with war and fate! I am sure that some of GRRM's nod to House Morrigan must relate back the the myth of the Morrigan. Also of interest is an ancestor of House Morrigan, Dickon Morrigan, during the Last Storm, during Aegon's invasion. This might just be GRRM weaving a nice little back story/world building, but what if it means more?
Yes, it's interesting, although I still wonder if Dany doesn't have some attraction to them in relation to her love of Drogo that then translates to an attraction to Daario. However, in looking back at the text, Daario's mustachio is interesting because when Dany first meets him, his mustachio is dyed gold, but after some time, he dyes it blue, like his hair. I am wondering if there is some symbolism in the color change?
Mustachio's show up in two other places in the text, outside of the Dothraki and Norvos and Daario (and whomever he is connected to). The Maester Kerwin on Victarion's ship on the journey east is noted to have small mustachio's and also Jon notes that some of the young wildling men who cross the wall have mustachio's. Not so much with the wildlings, but I think it's an odd little detail for a maester who ends up killed and tossed into the ocean!
Agreed. Daario's outburst seems more than just a sellsword being lied to. Seems really pissed off about something, like someone trying to steal his marriage. As to why he doesn't come out at that about: 1) I think it could be part of a longer Dornish game. 2) How insane would that sound to Dany and everyone else at that moment? Not to mention self serving.
Daario does play it like he is upset, but I honestly have a tough time reading him, so I can't tell of he truly is angered or if he is just pretending to be. But if Daario is the real Quentyn and Quentyn is some imposter pawn, what is Doran's game in this, by sending fake Quentyn in to propose marriage when his own son, the real Quentyn/Daario is already in play? Of course, it's possible that Doran is unaware of what Daario/Quentyn is up to. One thing I find so vague about Daario is his age. We have no idea how old he is. Older than Dany, but she is young. He could be anywhere between 18 and 30, I would suppose, perhaps older. The shady details around his age are part of the reason that there are so many "Daario is ...." theories around!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga, i have tin foil that one of Bloodraven;s sisters married Lord Qorgyle and their son became LC after he joined the NW to look for his missing uncle some time after 252 . However the ages might not match up for a son so maybe a grand son ? houdinifrancis,
stdaga , i have tin foil that one of Bloodraven;s sisters married Lord Qorgyle and their son became LC after he joined the NW to look for his missing uncle some time after 252 . However the ages might not match up for a son so maybe a grand son ? houdinifrancis ,
I do think that both Mya and Gwenys Rivers or their offspring could play an important genetic role in the story? I would suspect they will have children with a y in the name, to help us out in our search, but I have never really looked into it beyond some very basic thought.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Also this obliges me to bring up the other big mystery related to Mance. His searching for the horn in Winterfell crypts. Why is he searching for the horn even after the freefolk have crossed the wall? To prevent the horn falling into wrong hands? To use it as a leverage in the future? Was this horn lore told to him by Dalla? We know of a couple of wood witches who make prophecies and have visions. Are Dalla and Val the same? Did they have some vision about the Wall or the horn?
I don't think the horn is in the crypts. I think Sam has the horn of winter; the small broken horn. Mance might be looking for something else. The true sword Ice and the crown of the king of winter.
Starting with the legends. In particular, I'm thinking of the Last Hero and the first appearance of the Others. We are told he defeated the Others to end the long night. How he defeated an army of the undead by himself is the question. This must have been a trial by combat before the gods. The cotf gave him a weapon, likely an obsidian sword. He defeats his opponent and then what?
I think Mel gives us a bit of a clue when she calls the ancient enemy the soul of ice. If you believe that magic swords contain a will of their own or a part of their master's soul; then potentially, the soul of ice is referring to the Stark sword Ice rather than it's substitute the valyrian steel sword.
In other words the Last Hero claimed the sword of his opponent which gave him dominion over the Others and he becomes the first King of Winter.
Now his descendants are bound to guard the sword in the place where winter fell and also the Stark words. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell (because) Winter is Coming. This is the Stark Musgrave Ritual. They know the words but not it's meaning or origin.
It's likely the sword is hidden in the crypts and if Jon's dreams are any indication; he must find and claim the sword and become the King of Winter. My guess is that he will have to contend with the soul of the sword and master it or he will become the thing that Bran saw in the heart of winter. Mel's ancient enemy personified.
"Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." - DwD Jon VI
The heart of winter also suggests the place where winter first manifests. That appears to be Winterfell.
I don't think the horn is in the crypts. I think Sam has the horn of winter; the small broken horn. Mance might be looking for something else. The true sword Ice and the crown of the king of winter.
I would agree that Sam has the Horn of Winter. There has to be a reason he was given it by Jon, has managed to carry it to Essos and back to Westeros. And Sam was raised on Horn Hill, and is linked to Herndon of the Horn. Maybe some Tarly's manifest as hunters, such as Randyll, while some manifest as horn blowers? Sam does say he liked music as a child and some horns are linked to music.
Starting with the legends. In particular, I'm thinking of the Last Hero and the first appearance of the Others. We are told he defeated the Others to end the long night. How he defeated an army of the undead by himself is the question. This must have been a trial by combat before the gods. The cotf gave him a weapon, likely an obsidian sword. He defeats his opponent and then what?
I think Mel gives us a bit of a clue when she calls the ancient enemy the soul of ice. If you believe that magic swords contain a will of their own or a part of their master's soul; then potentially, the soul of ice is referring to the Stark sword Ice rather than it's substitute the valyrian steel sword.
In other words the Last Hero claimed the sword of his opponent which gave him dominion over the Others and he becomes the first King of Winter.
Now his descendants are bound to guard the sword in the place where winter fell and also the Stark words. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell (because) Winter is Coming. This is the Stark Musgrave Ritual. They know the words but not it's meaning or origin.
It's likely the sword is hidden in the crypts and if Jon's dreams are any indication; he must find and claim the sword and become the King of Winter. My guess is that he will have to contend with the soul of the sword and master it or he will become the thing that Bran saw in the heart of winter. Mel's ancient enemy personified.
"Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." - DwD Jon VI
The heart of winter also suggests the place where winter first manifests. That appears to be Winterfell.
I like that the original Ice could be in the crypts, but if it is, do you think the sword is missing a hilt? I have long felt that the hilt of Waymer's sword, which we see in the very first prologue, is important, and then it pops up much later in Jon's story, as a tribute the wildlings pay to cross the wall. Jon makes note of that for a reason. Jon would know that he needs a hilt to wield a sword properly, based on Dalla's words. That hilt has three sapphires in it, and sapphires seem to be a color linked to ice and the Other's.
Also, if Jon is plagued by dreams that lead to finding this sword, do you think these same dreams plagued Eddard? And other Lords of Winterfell that came before? Or is it only a certain man who is meant to again be a King of Winter who has these dreams?
As to this Soul of Ice, Mel seems to think he is the Great Other, the enemy of R'hller, yet it almost feels to me like the soul of ice has already been captured by a sword called Ice. So in some way, if it's linked to Jon Snow, does that mean he will free the Soul of Ice that his trapped into the sword, and if so, could that Soul of Ice then take over Jon's body? Maybe he is not meant to overcome it, maybe he is meant to become it, and that is why Bran is so sad for what he see's. Because he see's Jon's destiny, and it's painful to watch that happen to a loved one. But perhaps Jon needs to become this to defeat the Soul of Fire, R'hller, who I have no doubt isn't the hero of this story.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I would agree that Sam has the Horn of Winter. There has to be a reason he was given it by Jon, has managed to carry it to Essos and back to Westeros. And Sam was raised on Horn Hill, and is linked to Herndon of the Horn. Maybe some Tarly's manifest as hunters, such as Randyll, while some manifest as horn blowers? Sam does say he liked music as a child and some horns are linked to music.
There are three figures who stand out in the oath of the Night Watch: the sword, the shield and the horn. I believe Jon will manifest as the sword, Sam as the horn and believe it or not, Jaime as the shield. This is one of the things that I think Sam will stumble upon in his studies at the Citadel. What the horn is and what it does. But I think he will pay a price to wind it.
I like that the original Ice could be in the crypts, but if it is, do you think the sword is missing a hilt? I have long felt that the hilt of Waymer's sword, which we see in the very first prologue, is important, and then it pops up much later in Jon's story, as a tribute the wildlings pay to cross the wall. Jon makes note of that for a reason. Jon would know that he needs a hilt to wield a sword properly, based on Dalla's words. That hilt has three sapphires in it, and sapphires seem to be a color linked to ice and the Other's.
Yes, it is missing the hilt figuratively. Jon will be tested by the sword before he can claim it and become the hilt. Jon has to master the sword in his heart and soul or become mastered himself by it
Also, if Jon is plagued by dreams that lead to finding this sword, do you think these same dreams plagued Eddard? And other Lords of Winterfell that came before? Or is it only a certain man who is meant to again be a King of Winter who has these dreams?
There is no evidence that Ned had any dreams of the sword or going into the crypts. He seems to have had a recurring prophetic dream about the blood streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death. A foreshadowing of both the return of dragons and the return of white walkers/Others.
As to this Soul of Ice, Mel seems to think he is the Great Other, the enemy of R'hller, yet it almost feels to me like the soul of ice has already been captured by a sword called Ice. So in some way, if it's linked to Jon Snow, does that mean he will free the Soul of Ice that his trapped into the sword, and if so, could that Soul of Ice then take over Jon's body? Maybe he is not meant to overcome it, maybe he is meant to become it, and that is why Bran is so sad for what he see's. Because he see's Jon's destiny, and it's painful to watch that happen to a loved one. But perhaps Jon needs to become this to defeat the Soul of Fire, R'hller, who I have no doubt isn't the hero of this story.
Yes, he either masters the sword to become the king of winter with dominion over the others or become the soul of ice.
There are three figures who stand out in the oath of the Night Watch: the sword, the shield and the horn. I believe Jon will manifest as the sword, Sam as the horn and believe it or not, Jaime as the shield. This is one of the things that I think Sam will stumble upon in his studies at the Citadel. What the horn is and what it does. But I think he will pay a price to wind it.
Jaime is not a member of the Night's Watch, though he probably should have been after he killed Aerys. No good deed goes unpunished, and all of that. Sword for Jon and Horn for Sam makes sense to me. Sam's identity is connected with horn from the very first by his connection to Horn Hill. I would think that the Shield should apply to a Brother of the Night's Watch.
I think this could also be hinted at in the children of Garth Greenhand and their descendants. Jon is a Stark, descended through Brandon of the Bloody Blade, a sword. Sam is said to be descended from either Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn and of Horn Hill, calling our attention to the horn. Sam is also said to be a Florent descendent. Of the children of Garth that are listed (he is said to have had more, I think, and am thinking that Durran Godsgrief might have been one of those sons) but we also have Owen Oakenshield, who conquered the Shield Islands and is said to have drive selkies and merlins back into the sea. Oakenshield seems a nod to the shield in the oath, and might refer to a descendent of Owen Oakenshield. Could one of our brother's and friend of Jon be from the Shield Islands? I am leaning toward Grenn or Pyp. Dolorous Edd might be important too, but he's from the Vale. Another thought about Oakenshield is that there is an abandoned castle on the wall called Oakenshield and it is given to Tormund to garrison, although Tormund isn't a Night's Watch Brother (yet) he is serving to defend the wall.
Other aspects of the Oath besides the Sword, Horn, and Shield that stands out to me as a roles to play are the Watcher, the Fire and the Light, as in "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn." Pyp has spent time with mummers and is adapt at watching and learning and mimicking. He is sent to the garrison at Eastwatch by the Sea. Pyp has large ears and could be descended from the Florent's. Grenn is quite large and strong and could show giant blood, and Jon the Oak was said to be a giant of a man. The Tollett's are first men from the Vale, and their words are "when all is darkest" which perhaps hints at some light aspect in a role they need to play, perhaps to fire or light.
There seems to be something important about the foursome of ranger trainee's in Jon IV. Jon, Grenn and Pyp stand to defend Samwell. So perhaps we are meant to focus on them for a very specific reason, a pay off in the end. I am reminded that the show killed of both Grenn and Pyp's character's in Season 5, I think. I have wondered if either of these characters were ones that GRRM complained had been killed off in the show when in the books they still had an important role to fill.
Yes, it is missing the hilt figuratively. Jon will be tested by the sword before he can claim it and become the hilt. Jon has to master the sword in his heart and soul or become mastered himself by it
I am not sure that this sword with the missing hilt is only figuratively, but it certainly might be! But in that case, anything in life that is messy and needs to be overcome could be a sword without a hilt.
There is no evidence that Ned had any dreams of the sword or going into the crypts. He seems to have had a recurring prophetic dream about the blood streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death. A foreshadowing of both the return of dragons and the return of white walkers/Others.
We don't know what many of Ned's dreams are, but there are some hints to them. He dreams of snow and the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night, dreams of silence and darkness. Ned has dreams of the "frozen hell" of the Stark's of Winterfell and that seems like a direct nod toward the crypts. He dreams dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises, which are certainly ominous. Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn also plays a large role in Ned's toj dream. As to the toj dream, it's a dream that Ned has had before, but I don't know how often is has reoccurred. That does seem to be something important in Jon's dreams, that they repeat, and yet change slightly over time. But again, we don't know the majority of the information in Ned's dreams and I speculate that they are very like Jon's. The one we know he is having repeatedly is "dreaming of snow, of the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night." because he tells us it has been reoccurring often.
As to Jon's dreams, we don't know what he is meant to find. The only dream he has that involves a sword is the dream when he is standing on a wall and fighting of the dead with a sword that burns red in his fist, and he seems to feel that blade is Longclaw. He also "dreams" of Ice, and being gifted in by his father, but I am not sure that was an actual dream or a day dream/fantasy/wish. And as for the crypt dreams, he seems to feel that he is searching for a person, not a thing. Calling out for someone, looking for someone. Jon dreams of lots of things and it's not easy to interpret them, or even agree on a focus of the subject matter.
Yes, he either masters the sword to become the king of winter with dominion over the others or become the soul of ice.
It could be both. I used to be convinced that Dawn was in the crypts, but now I have started to let that go. But another sword that calls to Jon makes sense. And if that sword contains a soul, then it might be why Jon seems to feel he's searching for a person, not a thing.
I have recently been looking into souls trapped in swords, and comparing the swords in this story to the demon blade of Elric of Melnibone, Stormbringer, and it's counterpart, Mournblade. I think Valyrian steel might have captured souls in it, and that's why the swords seem to crave blood, and I think Dawn could be a sword that traps a soul as well. So, your thoughts on the original Ice holding an icey soul seem to fit into that path nicely.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
lynn, stdaga, cecily, markg thinks Dawn is corrupted by the soul of the NQ and someone worthy is needed to wield it and overcome her influence i think IIRC