i have not researched but it is possible that some of these Valyrian families were established on the coast of Westeros long before the Targaryens came over. It would consolidate the theory that Asshai Valyrian houses had settled on the Westerosi coasts during or even prior to the so-called First Men migration/invasion. One of these being the Daynes.
I have both House Dayne and Hightower pegged as descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn.
I would have to agree that the Hightower's seem important, with the coloring we think of as Valyrian or coming from Lys used to describe a couple Hightower's, Lynesse Hightower Mormont and Alerie Hightower Tyrell.
House Dayne seems to fit, and they seem very special in the story, and probably in history as well.
So, do you think the Valyrian's are an offshoot of the Great Empire of the Dawn?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I have both House Dayne and Hightower pegged as descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn.
I would have to agree that the Hightower's seem important, with the coloring we think of as Valyrian or coming from Lys used to describe a couple Hightower's, Lynesse Hightower Mormont and Alerie Hightower Tyrell.
House Dayne seems to fit, and they seem very special in the story, and probably in history as well.
So, do you think the Valyrian's are an offshoot of the Great Empire of the Dawn?
Yup when the GEotD diminished and fell apart some groups went West and became the Houses Dayne and Hightower. Others went east and became Valyria.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
In my head canon, the Castle at Dragonstone was built long before the Targaryen's came to Westeros, so who built this castle? Perhaps my head canon is wrong about this. Dragonstone was obviously built with Valyrian knowledge and probably magic. How do the gargoyles on Dragonstone connect to the gargoyles on the First Keep at Winterfell?
I tend to agree with your views on Dragonstone. Although not with the larger islands.
Assuming that the dragonriders of Asshai in the era of the GED came and settled Westeros, i think they would have done so on the on small coastal settlements such as Pyke, the Hightower, Storm's End etc.
As for the connection between WF's gargoyles and the others around the continent, that is the 64k question! Similar architecture indeed. In it's answer perhaps we could (?!) find the key to the occupants of the Nightfort at the time of the LN.
And if you and Wraith - and others - are interested should be put all this in a new thread? I have a few bits to contribute if need be.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
In the original post i theorized(along with some other crazy stuff) that the three attempts at tempering Lightbringer represented what it really means to be a man of the Night's Watch. The sword that Azor Ahai was forging was a sworn brotherhood that would sacrifice all to guard the realms of men through the Long Night.
Water represents Birth - Failed. Filling the ranks with men of Noble birth would not guarantee the Wall would hold
Heart of a Lion - Bravery - Failed. Bravery alone would fail as well.
Nissa Nissa - Sacrifice - If the wall is to be held to shield the realms of men, the men who defend the Wall would have to be willing to sacrifice...well everything. Wife, children, titles, crowns, honour and their very lives to make sure it didnt break.
This is what it takes to temper the Red Sword of Heroes. But the Night's Watch is not the Red Sword of Heroes. The vows they take state that they will win no glory. And There is no red in the Night's Watch...
My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said. A Storm of Swords - Jon I
The forging of Lightbringer is a prophecy written in the old books in Asshai. Azor Ahai is a warrior from eastern legend who is supposed to to be reborn. If my interpretation is even close to being right then this must have happened before. But where?
The vow in the Night's Watch oath ...."I am the watcher on the walls " always makes me think of the Five Forts in Essos. The reason for building it and the description of the lands beyond it are very similar to the Wall in Westeros. We dont know much about the Five Forts. Supposedly the where built to defend against the demons of the Lion of Night in some sort of event similar to what we know as the Long Night. They now stand guard against wild men and other things to the North in the Grey Waste. With legends similar to those of the wildlings beyond the Wall. The "Snarks and Grumpkins" of Essos.
No discussion of Yi Ti would be complete without a mention of the Five Forts, a line of hulking ancient citadels that stand along the far northeastern frontiers of the Golden Empire, between the Bleeding Sea (named for the characteristic hue of its deep waters, supposedly a result of a plant that grows only there) and the Mountains of the Morn. The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men...and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high.
Of the lands that lie beyond the Five Forts, we know even less. Legends and lies and traveler's tales are all that ever reach us of these far places. We hear of cities where the men soar like eagles on leathern wings, of towns made of bones, of a race of bloodless men who dwell between the deep valley called the Dry Deep and the mountains. Whispers reach us of the Grey Waste and its cannibal sands, and of the Shrykes who live there, half-human creatures with greenscaled skin and venomous bites. Are these truly lizard-men, or (more likely) men clad in the skins of lizards? Or are they no more than fables, the grumkins and snarks of the eastern deserts? And even the Shrykes supposedly live in terror of K'dath in the Grey Waste, a city said to be older than time, where unspeakable rites are performed to slake the hunger of mad gods. Does such a city truly exist? If so, what is its nature? The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti
What we do know is they are a line of five giants citadels that guard the northeastern boundaries of Yi Ti. They almost seem to be like the Wall..... with no wall. Just the castles. Was there a wall between these forts? Im tempted to say yes....... At one time. Even with 10,000 men in each fort, i cant see them all standing in a line between the forts every night to stop raiders or Other things passing through when the Lion of Night unleashed his demons. There had to have been something else to stop them.
The Bleeding Sea
If there was a wall of ice along the boundary between the forts similar to the Wall in Westeros, there is a good chance the ice the wall was made of came from the Bleeding Sea.
The Bleeding Sea is a large inland sea in eastern Essos. It is named for its blood-red waters, which are caused by a blooming plant. The Bleeding Sea lies along the southeastern border of the plains of the Jogos Nhai and south of N'Ghai. There is a small island in the northern part of the sea. Roughly five rivers connect to the Bleeding Sea; one runs south through to Jinqi and the Jade Sea. Just south of the Bleeding Sea is a marshy region. To the east of the Bleeding Sea is the Shrinking Sea, and beyond that the Land of the Shrykes and the city of K'Dath. The Five Forts stretch along the southeastern tip of the sea, while the the Cannibal Sands lie at the northwestern edge of the sea. Wiki of Ice and Fire Bleeding Sea
I havent done enough research on what would happen if seawater like the waters of the Bleeding Sea freezes to state with confidence that the ice from it would be Red but its nice to think there might have been a wall of red ice in Essos.
Personally, I like to think that the Wall in Westeros is made of Ice and the hypothetical wall between the Five Forts was made of Fire.
The Lord of Light
Every night the worshiper's Of R'hllor light their nightfires to guard them through the night "For the night is dark and full of terrors." and every morning they give thanks for the dawn. This may have been what the men who guarded the Five Forts did to keep out the demons of the Lion of Night. This fire could be the "waking dragons from stone" Melisandre talks about..
"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." A Dance with Dragons Jon X
This may be the reason the walls are made from fused black stone.
Certain scholars from the west have suggested Valyrian involvement in the construction of the Five Forts, for the great walls are single slabs of fused black stone that resemble certain Valyrian citadels in the west...but this seems unlikely, for the Forts predate the Freehold's rise, and there is no record of any dragonlords ever coming so far east. The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti
The Fiery Hand
The slave soldiers that guard the Red Temple and its Priests in Volantis are called the The Fiery Hand There they are slaves marked by the flames tattooed on their faces but we dont know if they are slaves in the other cities where there are Red Temples. Moqorro and Benerro in Volantis have Tattoos like the slave soldiers but Thoros of Myr and Melisandre of Asshai do not.
Is it possible that the men (or women) who once garrisoned the Five Forts are the basis for this order? The Kingsguard of Westeros swear a vow which is based on the Night's Watch oath.link They swear to guard the King from harm and give their life for his. The Night's Watch swear to do the same but to guard the realms of men. The Fiery Hand (that we know of) are slaves. They belong to the Red Temple. The Brothers of the Night's Watch are slaves of a sort too. Once they say the words they cannot leave and they must obey every order. If they do not, the penalty is death.
The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile or cruel. A Game of Thrones - Bran V
An order of soldiers(slave or otherwise) who worship the Lord of Light, commanded by Red Priests like Moqorro, Bennero and Melisandre in each of the Five Forts. That would be a Fiery Hand? If there was a wall of fire between the forts, it would look like it was grasping a flaming sword.
The Legend of Azor Ahai is replecated in different cultures with different names
How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world. The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti
Thats five different names for what seems to be the same person, all said to have done the same thing wielding the sword Lightbringer. Is it possible that the five are the leaders of each Fort? Like the Five Families with Azor Ahai as Il Capo de tutti Capi pulling the strings.....maybe. GRRM is from Jersey.
Ice and Lightbringer
So if Lightbringer is a metaphorical flaming sword and was really an oral history of how the Lion of Night and his demons were held at bay, is there a similar story for the Wall in Westeros?
The Last Hero who sought out the Children of the Forest to help end the Long Night. We dont know much about the story but we know from The World of Ice and Fire....
How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries. TWoIaF Ancient History: The Long Night
This type of sacrifice would definitely temper the Sword in the Darkness and it may be what the Night's Watch oath was built on
If the order of events is correct then the Night's Watch was founded after the Last Hero sacrificed everything to make it to the Children.
Legends of the north state the last hero and his companions went in search of the children of the forest during the Long Night, thousands of years ago. The only survivor of the company after attacks from giants, wights, and Others, the last hero eventually reached the children and gained their assistance. The Night's Watch then formed and won the Battle for the Dawn. This ended the generation-long winter and sent the Others into retreat,possibly to the Land of Always Winter. The fate of the last hero is unknown.A Wiki of Ice and Fire
I think Stannis' sword Lightbringer is named after themetaphorical flaming sword that guards the realms of men from the Lion of Night in Essos. So, does Westeros have one that represents the sword in the darkness that shields the realms of men...
Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North. A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I
A sword of ICE and a sword of FIRE
The king laid his bright blade down on the map, along the Wall, its steel shimmering like sunlight on water. "You are only lord commander by my sufferance. You would do well to remember that."
"I am lord commander because my brothers chose me." A Dance with Dragons - Jon I
A song of Ice and Fire.
"There's a sweet sound," he said, slashing at the air. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI
Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand. The wind swirled around them, stirring their black cloaks and sending a scatter of red cinders flying from the fire. "We ride at noon," the ranger told him. "Best find that wolf of yours."