Also in this chapter Janos Slynt compares himself to Aegon the Dragon, and honestly, it's so ridiculous a comparison, I snorted out loud! Okay, I am done derailing things for the moment!
Haha, Slynt does seem to have an inflated view of himself!
Indeed! He is a piece of work. One of my favorite moments is when Jon take his head off, although I think this might turn out to be the first of several missteps for Jon as LC. He is being the Stark in Winterfell serving justice, instead of the LC of the Night's Watch, perhaps! Still, it gives me a thrill each time I read it.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I have looked into their hair, from way back in Tyrion's first chapter, I think. Before this, Jon notes Tyrion and Tommen to have a white blond hair. But later in our story, Jaime and Cersei both note that Tommen has golden curls. Now, it could be the POV that is different, but in Jon I, he can see the difference between gold (which he attributes to Jaime, Cersei, Joffrey and Marcella) and white-blond (to Tyrion and Tommen). I would like to trust Jon in this, but he could be wrong. But both Cersei and Jaime claim the gold hair for Tommen, so perhaps his hair color has changed and become a bit darker as he grew; it was always golden and never white-blond and Jon was wrong; or Cersei and Jaime are both deluding themselves about Tommen's hair color, because the white-blond is not a Lannister trait, so how could their son have a none-Lannister trait?
Oh gods, how can we be so dense?!? Why haven't we seen it before?!?
TYRION IS TOMMEN'S FATHER!!! It's the obvious explanation!
Seriously though, if the Lannisters have no silver in their hair, like evah, it would point to Aerys slipping his seed into Joanna with both pregnancies. If it's a clue that is, and not just Martin evolving his story.
I know that there is speculation that Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's, but I don't buy it. When Lysa and Littlefinger marry, she is so excited to give him a son, like their little babe that died. If Sweetrobin was Littlefinger's, then she already has given him that son. That doesn't mean Lysa might not have had a different lover and Sweetrobin belongs to that man... Hard to say what was going on in Jon Arryn's thoughts. To bad he didn't keep a secret journal.
Sweetrobin has brown hair. Lysa's hair is red. Jon Arryn's hair color is unknown, but I believe there is some debate that he has blondish hair, that is if Harry the Heir turns on to be blond. He is said to look like a young Jon Arryn, but who knows if that is truth or just flattery.
The meaning or intent of "The seed is strong" is definitely open to interpretation, by the characters in the book as well as to us readers!
I'm agnostic on Sweetrobin myself, and haven't speculated much on that seed thingy.
Bran and Jon have ice dragon imagery, quite clearly. Ned's is pretty questionable, with the "cold breathe from deep in the earth". With the boys, it starts with the constellation, but Jon's later morphs into thoughts of the wall and tunnels under Castle Black. Is that related to dreams he is having? And could those dreams be sent by Bran?
Never noticed the ice dragon with Bran, might be something I need several reads before it sticks haha!
Not sure Bran is the one sending dreams, if there is a coherent trail of dreams there I mean. Too early in the story for that I think, as Jon tells us very early in the story. So I think he's sent only the one so far.
Ned notes the dragon skulls three or four times, once is in memory, and never tells us if he is comfortable or uncomfortable with them. Vague, as usual. Easy to roll into what ever tinfoil a person might like. I admit my speculation has little more than this, the comment about "the better claim" (but not the only claim?), Ned starting into a candle flame, and this...
Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. ACOK-Theon I
Blood and fire? Fire and blood are Targaryen words? Dany actually misstates them once in her mind as Blood and Fire. Why does Theon think of Ned in this way. Not Robert, with known Targaryen blood? Or Thoros, who breached the wall at Pyke with a flaming sword. No, Ned Stark, who brought Blood and Fire to Pyke! As if it was Ned alone who put down the Greyjoy rebellion. Something is fishy here. The blood imagery makes sense, with Ned, if you consider the blood he has shed with Ice and the blood red color in the Weirwood tree's the Stark's worship. And also Ice imagery, related to Ned's sword that Theon fears, but not fire. Fire makes no sense here, and that is why I suspect it might be a hint from the author. But I don't mind if people don't see the tinfoil, like I do!
I just might need that in writing. But I have no problem with your tinfoil.
Essos is not my strong point, probably because I don't find it as interesting as other aspects of the story. But I am certain these things are important.
Not mine either. I did start looking into the Valyrians. Targaryens contra Mereen, the Roynar and the Andals though, and some interesting things there.
I've not seen anyone mention/complain about the missing history on the Valyrians and the Meerenese as "that is well known" or something like that. Which I find strange, as there seems to be something we should know about that. But that is a very different conversation! LOL!
Do we have other armorers making these kind of helms in the story? Perhaps, and I have just not focused on them. There is something important, ugly and dark, about the Hounds helm. What it makes him become, perhaps? A worse version of himself. The man that rode down a young boy and cut him nearly in half. Then later, when wearing it, we see a even worse version of Rorge than before. But still, he is not a character that ever has good traits. But Lem Lemoncloak seems much darker when he claims the Hound's helm. Thoros even begs him to cast it aside, because of the darkness. Even if Tobho didn't make it, I think there is something very frightening about what that helm might do to people. Perhaps it is just a hint at how terrible people can be when hiding behind a mask. My connection to Tobho is that he offered to make Ned a helm to "frighten children" and I think that is a very odd type of enticement.
Yes, we get at least one more.
Tyrion tilted his head to the side and gave the man a dose of his mismatched eyes. "What is your name, master armorer?" "Salloreon, as it please my lord. If the King's Hand will permit, I should be most honored to forge him a suit of armor suitable to his House and high office." Two of the others sniggered, but Salloreon plunged ahead, heedless. "Plate and scale, I think. The scales gilded bright as the sun, the plate enameled a deep Lannister crimson. I would suggest a demon's head for a helm, crowned with tall golden horns. When you ride into battle, men will shrink away in fear."Tyrion III, CoK
While not scaring children spesifically, it would scare men according to Salloreon.
I'm not sure I think there is something to the hound-helm or if it's the progression of the characters that causes them to act the way they do. But I seriously don't see Mott making that helm considering how expensive he is, even if there is something about it.
Indeed! He is a piece of work. One of my favorite moments is when Jon take his head off, although I think this might turn out to be the first of several missteps for Jon as LC. He is being the Stark in Winterfell serving justice, instead of the LC of the Night's Watch, perhaps! Still, it gives me a thrill each time I read it.
Haha, I can't help but like that scene as well, even though I really hate scenes like that in general. Couldn't happen to a better man!
We don't know how the different LC handled executions. If it's the northern way, it could be that Mormont did them himself as well. If he had to execute anyone, that is. So I'm more inclined to think if it was a mistake, it was down to him being part of that faction at the Wall.
Seriously though, if the Lannisters have no silver in their hair, like evah, it would point to Aerys slipping his seed into Joanna with both pregnancies. If it's a clue that is, and not just Martin evolving his story.
Or it could point at Targaryen blood in the Lannister line a bit further back in the history.
Never noticed the ice dragon with Bran, might be something I need several reads before it sticks haha!
Not sure Bran is the one sending dreams, if there is a coherent trail of dreams there I mean. Too early in the story for that I think, as Jon tells us very early in the story. So I think he's sent only the one so far.
In Dance, we get only a few examples of Jon's actual dreams, but he does tell us that he is having more and more wolf dreams, and there is the dream where he hacks the babies heads off and sews them back on the other bodies, as well as the black ice and burning sword dream. But Jon never thinks of a crypt dream in Dance, which I think is unusual, as they played such a prominent roll in his dreams before this. I am not sure if that could be over site by GRRM, or it's meant to tell us something. And yes, it seems that the only dream that Bran is involved with sending was the dream in the Frostfangs.
If Bran can only send dreams while he is incertain places, for instance underground in the crypts or in Bloodraven's cave, then there was a long period while Bran was traveling that he maybe could not access that power. Perhaps the Nightfort might have been another access point of this power?
Tyrion tilted his head to the side and gave the man a dose of his mismatched eyes. "What is your name, master armorer?" "Salloreon, as it please my lord. If the King's Hand will permit, I should be most honored to forge him a suit of armor suitable to his House and high office." Two of the others sniggered, but Salloreon plunged ahead, heedless. "Plate and scale, I think. The scales gilded bright as the sun, the plate enameled a deep Lannister crimson. I would suggest a demon's head for a helm, crowned with tall golden horns. When you ride into battle, men will shrink away in fear."Tyrion III, CoK
While not scaring children spesifically, it would scare men according to Salloreon.
I'm not sure I think there is something to the hound-helm or if it's the progression of the characters that causes them to act the way they do. But I seriously don't see Mott making that helm considering how expensive he is, even if there is something about it.
Thanks for the information on Sallorean. It rang a bell only after I read the quoted passage. However, the wording is interesting. Why are these helmet's so frightening? I would be more afraid of someone swinging a sword at my than a scary mask. However, I am going to keep these armorer's and helm's tucked away in my back pocket, and maybe someday it might make sense to me.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Indeed! He is a piece of work. One of my favorite moments is when Jon take his head off, although I think this might turn out to be the first of several missteps for Jon as LC. He is being the Stark in Winterfell serving justice, instead of the LC of the Night's Watch, perhaps! Still, it gives me a thrill each time I read it.
Haha, I can't help but like that scene as well, even though I really hate scenes like that in general. Couldn't happen to a better man!
We don't know how the different LC handled executions. If it's the northern way, it could be that Mormont did them himself as well. If he had to execute anyone, that is. So I'm more inclined to think if it was a mistake, it was down to him being part of that faction at the Wall.
Maybe it is a personal choice on how people are executed. We have black brother's executed in different ways. Perhaps it has to do with their crime, or perhaps it has to do with the Lord Commander? The 79 Sentinal's were buried alive in the ice, but there crime was deserting and not disobeying the direct order of the Lord Commander. There are perhaps other examples of executions (besides Mance's, which was run my Mel and Stan) of black brothers but right now I can't think of any.
It seems so complicated, to me. I think it's NOT a misstep in how Jon is trying to built strength as Lord Commander, because he needs to be firm and respected and obeyed (although, I am not sure Slynt needed to die, and if he did, perhaps hanging would be the way of the watch), as much as it's a misstep in the men's eyes that Jon is acting as the Lord of Winterfell and not JUST the Lord Commander. I think that Jon taking Slynt's head might remind his brother's of Lord Eddard (and other Stark lords, perhaps) taking the heads of Night's Watch brothers. It certainly reminds me of that, and while it makes me warm and fuzzy and teary eyed, it might make some of his brother's nervous. And when he decides to leave the wall to march on Winterfell to defeat the Bolton bastard, then this might be seen as another example of Jon choosing his Starkness over his Night's Watch vows.
Also, Jon killed Slynt for personal reasons, even if it was wrapped up in a gift of disobeying orders. He tells himself this was not revenge for Ned's death, but I think it is. Jon has been able to let a lot of his past go, but somethings he can't forget, and Ned's betrayal and death is one of them. This has been festering since the first book, and In a way I see it like Arya being unable to toss Needle into the waterways of Braavos, and also her actions in killing Dareon also are an echo of the duties of the Lord of Winterfell. It get's Arya punished by the Kindly Man, and in the same way, Jon will be punished for his actions as well.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy those actions by Jon and Arya, (as I want them to embrace their Starkness) but I see that they are steps that help they stray from the orders they have joined. Of course, this might all be needed to draw them home to Winterfell eventually, but every action has a reaction, and Arya looses her sight for a time and Jon is eventually caught up in an assassination attempt. Had to say what the total effect could be until the end of the story.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
In Dance, we get only a few examples of Jon's actual dreams, but he does tell us that he is having more and more wolf dreams, and there is the dream where he hacks the babies heads off and sews them back on the other bodies, as well as the black ice and burning sword dream. But Jon never thinks of a crypt dream in Dance, which I think is unusual, as they played such a prominent roll in his dreams before this. I am not sure if that could be over site by GRRM, or it's meant to tell us something. And yes, it seems that the only dream that Bran is involved with sending was the dream in the Frostfangs.
I don't have full overview of his dreams and how they relate to his arc, so I won't make any spesific statements on them right now. It's on my to-do-list (of course), but with only one body things take time!
If Bran can only send dreams while he is incertain places, for instance underground in the crypts or in Bloodraven's cave, then there was a long period while Bran was traveling that he maybe could not access that power. Perhaps the Nightfort might have been another access point of this power?
If so, it took a while before he fist had access to it as well. I don't think it's an ability he delveloped before he went into the crypts. I have little to say on the Nightfort at the moment.
Thanks for the information on Sallorean. It rang a bell only after I read the quoted passage. However, the wording is interesting. Why are these helmet's so frightening? I would be more afraid of someone swinging a sword at my than a scary mask. However, I am going to keep these armorer's and helm's tucked away in my back pocket, and maybe someday it might make sense to me.
As I'd just read it chasing shadows it was very fresh in my mind.
I have no idea of why they are so frightning, perhaps as a psychological warfare part? Most fighting men are just commoners, and they seem to be a bit superstitious (as does quite a few of the highborn!)? On the other hand, swann wings on a helm isn't exactly frightning, so in the end I have no idea really.
I don't have full overview of his dreams and how they relate to his arc, so I won't make any spesific statements on them right now. It's on my to-do-list (of course), but with only one body things take time!
Honestly, it's a huge task, as there are several dreams, and all are slightly different, although if going by Jon's own categorization, he recognizes wolf dreams and crypt dreams. I am not sure where he would classify his black armor/burning sword dream, as it doesn't fit either category. And Jon's categories could also be incorrect. The dreams are massive in this story, and even just one character's dreams can be overwhelming.
If so, it took a while before he fist had access to it as well. I don't think it's an ability he delveloped before he went into the crypts. I have little to say on the Nightfort at the moment.
I guess it depends on what power, to receive these dreams or send them. Bran was open to receiving these dreams before they had to hind in the crypts, and so was Rickon. They both received dreams that encouraged them to go into the crypts. Rickon seems to spend a lot of time there, and I think he has the ability to be a strong greenseer, too. Maybe if Bran had his own legs, he would have spent that much time in the crypt's, as well. But it does seem like it was after the were hiding from Theon in the crypts that Bran seem's to be able to make contact with Jon.
The dreams in the series are so complicated that it is almost overwhelming to delve into them all.
I wonder if we think about it more than GRRM!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Honestly, it's a huge task, as there are several dreams, and all are slightly different, although if going by Jon's own categorization, he recognizes wolf dreams and crypt dreams. I am not sure where he would classify his black armor/burning sword dream, as it doesn't fit either category. And Jon's categories could also be incorrect. The dreams are massive in this story, and even just one character's dreams can be overwhelming.
It is, and I'm always distracted my some other interesting storyline, haha!
I will say that Jon having more and more wolfdreams kinda mirrors Bran's dreaming arc in the start, as he too had many of those before going into the crypts. Other than that I have a few, unformed ideas, but they'll have to wait until I can get something coherent out of them.
I guess it depends on what power, to receive these dreams or send them. Bran was open to receiving these dreams before they had to hind in the crypts, and so was Rickon. They both received dreams that encouraged them to go into the crypts. Rickon seems to spend a lot of time there, and I think he has the ability to be a strong greenseer, too. Maybe if Bran had his own legs, he would have spent that much time in the crypt's, as well. But it does seem like it was after the were hiding from Theon in the crypts that Bran seem's to be able to make contact with Jon.
Rickon certainly has dreams and a strong potential! Could be the crypts have something to do with the development of those. Hope we get so see more of that in the future!
Sensory deprevation tends to open things up in the mind, and with Bran already having strong dreams it stands to reason that his time in the crypts opened him up. And the smells etc in that dream seems to point to him being down there when sending it.
The dreams in the series are so complicated that it is almost overwhelming to delve into them all.
I wonder if we think about it more than GRRM!
They are very complicated! And yes, I do think we're overthinking George's ideas here. I wouldn't be surpised if I'm totally off base with 90% of my speculations in the end!
I will say that Jon having more and more wolfdreams kinda mirrors Bran's dreaming arc in the start, as he too had many of those before going into the crypts. Other than that I have a few, unformed ideas, but they'll have to wait until I can get something coherent out of them.
I might need to make a list of dreams, more organized than my usual sticky note pile, of characters and their dreams. Last night I came across a dream-ish sequence of Asha's, and I am not sure I ever thought of it before. So much going on in this story.
She dreamt of red hearts burning, and a black stag in a golden wood with flame streaming from his antlers. ADWD-The Wayward Bride
Now, I understand this isn't an actual dream, but Asha's description of Stannis's sigil is a bit odd, as we are told that Stannis has taken for his sigil "The device on his sun-yellow banner showed a red heart surrounded by a blaze of orange fire. The crowned stag was there, yes . . . shrunken and enclosed within the heart.". The description just seem's slightly off to me, but perhaps it is just the POV or the battle fatigue that Asha must be feeling. But why does she think it's a dream? Only because seeing Stannis' banner is so unexpected? Stumbled a bit into a rabbit hole ...
They are very complicated! And yes, I do think we're overthinking George's ideas here. I wouldn't be surpised if I'm totally off base with 90% of my speculations in the end!
It's almost like overthinking the text and symbolism and possible implications is a contagious disease that we need treatment for! LOL
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Maybe it is a personal choice on how people are executed. We have black brother's executed in different ways. Perhaps it has to do with their crime, or perhaps it has to do with the Lord Commander? The 79 Sentinal's were buried alive in the ice, but there crime was deserting and not disobeying the direct order of the Lord Commander. There are perhaps other examples of executions (besides Mance's, which was run my Mel and Stan) of black brothers but right now I can't think of any.
It seems so complicated, to me. I think it's NOT a misstep in how Jon is trying to built strength as Lord Commander, because he needs to be firm and respected and obeyed (although, I am not sure Slynt needed to die, and if he did, perhaps hanging would be the way of the watch), as much as it's a misstep in the men's eyes that Jon is acting as the Lord of Winterfell and not JUST the Lord Commander. I think that Jon taking Slynt's head might remind his brother's of Lord Eddard (and other Stark lords, perhaps) taking the heads of Night's Watch brothers. It certainly reminds me of that, and while it makes me warm and fuzzy and teary eyed, it might make some of his brother's nervous. And when he decides to leave the wall to march on Winterfell to defeat the Bolton bastard, then this might be seen as another example of Jon choosing his Starkness over his Night's Watch vows.
We don't get any other executions ordered or done by the LC of the Watch besides the old story of the Sentinels, so I find it impossible to speculate based on the text we have. The situation at the Wall is murky to say the least, and I haven't started unpacking that yet.
Also, Jon killed Slynt for personal reasons, even if it was wrapped up in a gift of disobeying orders. He tells himself this was not revenge for Ned's death, but I think it is. Jon has been able to let a lot of his past go, but somethings he can't forget, and Ned's betrayal and death is one of them. This has been festering since the first book, and In a way I see it like Arya being unable to toss Needle into the waterways of Braavos, and also her actions in killing Dareon also are an echo of the duties of the Lord of Winterfell. It get's Arya punished by the Kindly Man, and in the same way, Jon will be punished for his actions as well.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy those actions by Jon and Arya, (as I want them to embrace their Starkness) but I see that they are steps that help they stray from the orders they have joined. Of course, this might all be needed to draw them home to Winterfell eventually, but every action has a reaction, and Arya looses her sight for a time and Jon is eventually caught up in an assassination attempt. Had to say what the total effect could be until the end of the story.
It's also personal for Jon to be sure. Laying aside ones personal feelings would take more than the couple of years as he's had so far, and Slynt himself openly sided with the Lannisters while the Watch is supposed to be neutral. So is that acceptable while Jon being influenced by his Starkness not? If so, his murdering brothers is just as personal and politically motivated as he is imo. Much and more is made of his and Benjen's Starkness, so I'm not sure if that would be seen as such a negative thing. They were the greatest and most powerfull friend the Watch had for years and years.
As for Arya I'm not sure I see her being punished at all with the blindness. How could it be a punishment if it was something she would go through anyway? But that is a totally different can of worms I've set aside for now, and best placed somewhere else.
Last night I came across a dream-ish sequence of Asha's, and I am not sure I ever thought of it before. So much going on in this story.
She dreamt of red hearts burning, and a black stag in a golden wood with flame streaming from his antlers. ADWD-The Wayward Bride
Now, I understand this isn't an actual dream, but Asha's description of Stannis's sigil is a bit odd, as we are told that Stannis has taken for his sigil "The device on his sun-yellow banner showed a red heart surrounded by a blaze of orange fire. The crowned stag was there, yes . . . shrunken and enclosed within the heart.". The description just seem's slightly off to me, but perhaps it is just the POV or the battle fatigue that Asha must be feeling. But why does she think it's a dream? Only because seeing Stannis' banner is so unexpected? Stumbled a bit into a rabbit hole ...
Sorry, I don't have anything to say on that right now. My mind is working in very different directions these days.
It's almost like overthinking the text and symbolism and possible implications is a contagious disease that we need treatment for! LOL
Haha, that's one way to put it! And when you start, it's so difficult to go back... I find myself kinda puzzled by those who take the story straight forward and stating every personal POV as a general and objective fact...
At times I miss a ASOIAF Tinfoil Anonymous or something.
It's also personal for Jon to be sure. Laying aside ones personal feelings would take more than the couple of years as he's had so far, and Slynt himself openly sided with the Lannisters while the Watch is supposed to be neutral. So is that acceptable while Jon being influenced by his Starkness not? If so, his murdering brothers is just as personal and politically motivated as he is imo. Much and more is made of his and Benjen's Starkness, so I'm not sure if that would be seen as such a negative thing. They were the greatest and most powerfull friend the Watch had for years and years.
Oh, I don't argue that Slynt was being a Lannister yes man at the wall, but that doesn't make his favoritism and politicking something for Jon to emulate. Slynt took watch vows, placed a personal ambition before those vows and ended up dead. Interestingly, as things stand, Jon took watch vows, placed personal concerns before those vows and ended up stabbed (maybe dead)! It can be argued that Jon's behavior isn't much different that Janos Slynt's in certain ways, which is a bitter pill to swallow, as I love Jon's character!
I think I looked at that quite a while ago. It's so easy to be influenced by other people's opinions, even if they are full of great detective work, so this time around, I am going to try to pull my own "dream" thoughts together (in a pile of sticky notes, probably ) and then look at comparisons.
Haha, that's one way to put it! And when you start, it's so difficult to go back... I find myself kinda puzzled by those who take the story straight forward and stating every personal POV as a general and objective fact...
Well, since the story is so layered, I think that GRRM probably wrote in with the intention that some people would not see the deeper hints, while other's would see varying degree's of the complicated story. I bet those people who don't dig as deep, don't get cross-eyed from headaches while trying to puzzle things out, so at times I am a bit jealous of that acceptance of a more straight forward story.
Oh, I don't argue that Slynt was being a Lannister yes man at the wall, but that doesn't make his favoritism and politicking something for Jon to emulate. Slynt took watch vows, placed a personal ambition before those vows and ended up dead. Interestingly, as things stand, Jon took watch vows, placed personal concerns before those vows and ended up stabbed (maybe dead)! It can be argued that Jon's behavior isn't much different that Janos Slynt's in certain ways, which is a bitter pill to swallow, as I love Jon's character!
It is interesting that two newbees are getting so many votes for that postition. One could sayt they are opposites, as Slynt doesn't even try to be or hide his servitude to the Lannisters, while Jon at least tries.
Jon really learns the truth of Aemon's words in Game, the testing of the vows are all as hard as the first test. I'm unsure what his plan was there at the end, but as he spent two hours planning something with Tormund, I doubt it's as it was presented. But I do see how it would look like from the brothers POVs.
I think I looked at that quite a while ago. It's so easy to be influenced by other people's opinions, even if they are full of great detective work, so this time around, I am going to try to pull my own "dream" thoughts together (in a pile of sticky notes, probably ) and then look at comparisons.
It's just a collection of dreams, prophesies and visions, with no discussion.
Well, since the story is so layered, I think that GRRM probably wrote in with the intention that some people would not see the deeper hints, while other's would see varying degree's of the complicated story. I bet those people who don't dig as deep, don't get cross-eyed from headaches while trying to puzzle things out, so at times I am a bit jealous of that acceptance of a more straight forward story.
It is interesting that two newbees are getting so many votes for that postition. One could sayt they are opposites, as Slynt doesn't even try to be or hide his servitude to the Lannisters, while Jon at least tries.
Jon really learns the truth of Aemon's words in Game, the testing of the vows are all as hard as the first test. I'm unsure what his plan was there at the end, but as he spent two hours planning something with Tormund, I doubt it's as it was presented. But I do see how it would look like from the brothers POVs.
I am sure it's not quite as presented. For both Jon and Janos Slynt. After all, we are getting our view and impression of Janos directly from Jon, and there is every reason to believe that Jon's view of Slynt is not unbiased. That's one of the very tricky things about the POV system of the novels. If I view you as my enemy (or as the man who was partly responsible for my father's death) then my view of you is bound to be villainous.
As for what Jon might have truly been planning, or if there was more to the plan that what we have been let to see, I am sure that is the case. But still, that is the author hiding stuff from us, as this is all from Jon's POV, so we should already have known what went on in that meeting with Tormund. GRRM is no doubt manipulating us all the time, as much as he is manipulating his characters.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.