1.34 Catelyn VI

Except this doesn't work with what we know of Catelyn's thoughts on Edric Storm causing problems for Stannis.




Edric Storm is an acknowledged bastard of two parents of highborn birth, he was raised at Storm's End, is probably considered to be a "great bastard", and still Catelyn realizes that this bastard boy does not stand in the way of Stannis's claim. She realizes that Stannis wants the boy to be used as proof that while a bastard looks like Robert, his own "trueborn" son Joffrey carries none of Robert's seeds. Stannis will use Edric Storm to sew discontent with Joffrey's claim.

Cat does acknowledge that people will see what they want of that information, as it's still not proof. She even acknowledges the majority of her children don't look like Ned, but favor her, and she doesn't seem worried by that. Even though Jon and Arya are the only children of Winterfell that showed Ned in their features, she still doesn't seem to feel worried about this, which hints to me that all the children she gave birth to are Ned's. I guess it could be argued that only Arya is Ned's child by Cat, but then in seriousness, who is the father of Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon? It almost defies logic to think she cuckholded Ned their whole marriage, and with who? It's really hard for me to see this possibility.

I honestly can't make much sense of Catelyn's thoughts on Jon. She seems to fear his claim, but the only thing that could differentiate Jon from Edric Storm, who she doesn't think is worth fearing, is the "legitimization" aspect, and we know that Jon hasn't been legitimized by Ned and never was. Now, perhaps Ned threatened to do this at some point, but we know he did not. Of course, there is the chance that Cat fears or knows that Jon is indeed legitimate, but I have such a hard time imagining that honorable Ned would set one heir above another, or if Jon is Brandon's son, then Ned himself was the usurper to the Lordship of Winterfell.  And even when Robb later discusses legitimizing Jon, she still doesn't seem to think that Jon will steal Robb or Bran or Rickon's claim, only that his sons or grandsons might cause problems.

Perhaps this will someday make more sense if we ever get the story of the she-wolves of Winterfell and that succession crisis in the north and how it all played out.

Okay, full disclosure, I have decided to embrace the rest of the tinfoil parentage idea's I had while reading this chapter. I tried to hold back, but after spouting my Neddard/Lysa idea's, it seems silly not to lay it all out on the table.

Just to recap, we have been given a description of the Tully look several times in this book so far (Cat, Robb, Sansa, Bran, Rickon) and twice in this chapter as well (the Blackfish and Lysa), and later we will learn that Edmure fit's this requirement as well as a young Hoster. Auburn hair and blue eyes. So far, we have been given two anomalies in this line of descent. Arya, who looks very like a Stark, she has her father's look, and Sweetrobin, who might look like his father but certainly doesn't look like a Tully.

We have no description of Jon Arryn's hair or eye color to go on, young or old, but we know he was a strong man, according to Robert, who tells Ned, "We gave a tourney on my son's name day. If you had seen Jon then, you would have sworn he would live forever. A fortnight later he was dead", which hints that even in his later years, Jon Arryn was probably fit and healthy, although he has lost some teeth, and Pycelle tells Ned (and us) that Jon Arryn had broad shoulders, so Jon Arryn was broad and relatively healthy for his age. Sweetrobin is sickly and painfully thin. Truthfully, his size could be because of his "shaking sickness" and his probable addiction to sweetsleep via his mother's breast milk. Anyway, right now, we really have no reason to think that Sweetrobin's coloring doesn't come from his father, but it's pretty apparent he isn't colored like the Tully's. The Tully's are also noted to be tall, both the women and men, and I think Edmure is quite a tall, fit young man. He is described as stocky and taller than Cat by a head.

There is a detail that stands out to be when I read this chapter, and this time around, I can't ignore it. The horned moon reference.


So, this is our first description of the horned moon in the story. It is in the sky, it's reflection shining in the moat of the Gates of the Moon, a castle that is held by Nestor Royce. Nestor Royce is described by Cat as "massive, barrel-chested man, and his bow was clumsy" and Sansa later will describe him as "bullnecked, barrel-chested, balding man with a grey-shot beard and a stern look". I am only drawing attention to Nestor's description to show how unlike Robert Arryn he is physically. With this horned moon shining down on his moat, I questioned if it was a nod to Nestor as Sweetrobin's father, but I don't think so.


I don't know if the connection between this horned moon and the wind howling like a wolf is important or not, but I can't help but notice when wolves are mentioned in this story, and her it is with this "horned moon"

Twice in this chapter we are introduced to the idea of the "horned moon". It's seems a very specific reference. It hints at two possibilities for me.

In many cultures, giving someone the horns is a phrase that is noted to be connected to infidelity and more specifically cuckolding someone. Cuckolding is defined as "A cuckold is a man whose wife is having an affair with another man" or "a man whose wife has committed adultery" and the word is derived from "from Old French cucuault, from cucu cuckoo; perhaps an allusion to the parasitic cuckoos that lay their eggs in the nests of other birds". Wikipedia uses this description "A cuckold is the husband of an adulterous wife. In evolutionary biology, the term is also applied to males who are unwittingly investing parental effort in offspring that are not genetically their own. The word cuckold derives from the cuckoo bird, alluding to its habit of laying its eggs in other birds' nests. The association is common in medieval folklore and literature".

According to the wikipedia page on the common cuckoo, the cuckoo bird is able to lay in nests that have similar eggs to it's own, and one such bird nest that is often used by the cuckoo is the European robin! Hmmm! Robin along with Sweet (which usually means a lie or something sour or rotten in this story) could be another hint to us. I have pretty much discounted Petyr Baelish however, I do note that his personal sigil is a mocking bird, and mocking birds mimic the songs of other birds, while cuckoo's mimic or steal the nests of other birds. This makes me lean a bit toward the possibility of LF as Sweetrobin's bio-father. It also hints a bit at the idea of grumkin's, who will steal babies and place other babies in their place.

Giving someone the horns is also referenced on this wikipedia page with the metaphor or symbolism noted that "In Western traditions, cuckolds have sometimes been described as "wearing the horns of a cuckold" or just "wearing the horns". This is an allusion to the mating habits of stags, who forfeit their mates when they are defeated by another male.

So, my initial thought on this horned moon led my mind down this path. GRRM seems to be pretty educated on moon cycles and phrases, and in the five published novels, he only uses the term "horned moon" six times. Twice here in this Catelyn chapter, and once later in Catelyn IX, twice in a Jaime Feast chapter, and lastly, once in Bran's first chapter in Dance, from Summer's perspective. Bran's is questionable, as it is Summer who is seeing the moon, and GRRM does write from the direwolves perspective different than his humans. Bran might have used the word crescent while Summer uses the term horned. Jaime's two notes are interesting as we know he has cuckolded Robert and left three children in Robert's nest, but also, at this point in Feast, Jaime is well aware that Cersei has cheated on him, and though he and Cersei are not married, I think Jaime views their relationship as just as binding as a marriage, so this makes Jaime a cuckold, as well as one who is cuckolded. He has both hung horns on Robert, and had them hung on himself in return, by Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all he knows... 

That Catelyn see's this "horned moon" hanging over the Eyrie in the very same chapter that we meet Sweetrobin is very interesting to me, and I think it's a hint from our author. I think someone hung horns on Jon Arryn. But who? And was Jon Arryn aware? I do think it's possible that Jon could have been okay with an heir, not from his loins, as long as it meant securing the line of the Eyrie. Perhaps not, but maybe.

(And since this is from Cat's POV, does it hint that she is had a hand in hanging horns on someone else, like Ned, perhaps?) Probably best to leave that for another time.

I discussed Littlefinger as an option, and that is probably the best and easiest possibility. Lysa loves Baelish and is willing to do whatever to secure his love. And LF is small in stature and has brown hair, which do fit our description of Sweetrobin. LF has grey-green eyes but Sweetrobin's eye color is never noted in the text, otherwise I suppose the mystery might be to easy to solve. But as I stated in the last post, Lysa seems to think of her sweet tea abortion son with LF as the only son they made together. It's possible either way that LF might be the donor. Timeline wise, I have read theories that think LF was still in Gulltown working at the time Sweetrobin would have been conceived, and I am no timeline expert, so I will leave his open to possibility. But later in our story, LF almost uses sex to manipulate Lysa, and so I don't see him given her what she wants unless he get's what he wants in return. Still, this is a possibililty, and now with the cuckoo/mockingbird imagery in my head, the idea gains traction.

But that "horned moon" reminds me of something else. A horned moon is a crescent moon that is laying with the points upright, as opposed to left or right. This is something that happens closer to an equator more than at the poles, but the idea is something like this.


or



It does rather look like a pair of horns hanging in the sky.


This is the symbol for the Horned God of pagan religions, neopaganism or wicca. So, if the horned god symbol is hanging out over the Eyrie, what could that mean?

There are many great web sites that talk about the Horned God and the feminine counterpart of the Horned God which is the Triple Goddess, but I am going to steal some general observations from wikipedia.



Just briefly on the Triple Goddess, she is usually noted to fit three stages of life and is described as maiden, mother, crone, and that is certainly a theme that GRRM has given us as part of his Faith of the Seven. The wiccan symbol for the triple goddess is

which nicely fits the idea of a waxing moon (maiden), a full moon (mother), and a waning moon (crone).

And I think GRRM is giving us horned God symbolism in the sky hanging right over the Eyrie.

One person that is noted to fit the horned god image in this story is Robert Baratheon. Ned himself tells us about a youthful Robert, "tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god". Antlered helm, horned god! Even Renly mimick's this with is golden antlered helm at the Hand's tourney, although one of his tines is broken right off. Robert himself, or the Baratheon's in general seem to fit this imagery. Not Stannis, so much, I guess, but Robert and Renly certainly do, and as pointed out to me in a different discussion, Stannis has the aspect of demanding sacrifice from his followers, which does fit the idea of this horned god/green god.

I am not the first person to recognize that Robert carries horned god imagery all around him. The horned god in wicca is also related to the idea of the sun god and the green man. Robert has sun god imagery all around him, as well as green man. I myself have commented several times how Garth Greenhand's imagery of planting seeds (of many kinds), loving the sun and wine and women, seem to blanket Robert like a cloak.

Garth Greenhand from the wiki of ASOIAF.



Our very first meeting with Robert gives us this:



I see so much of Robert Baratheon in the idea of Garth Greenhand. The summer imagery, the planting of seeds (tree's or children), fun and frolic and wine and women. Garth demanded a blood sacrifice, and so does Robert. He demands Ned's sacrifice when Ned agree's to be hand, which ends with the loss of Ned's life. Blood sacrifice.

So, I can see this idea of Robert, who just can't seem to stay out of many beds when the mood strikes him, and it seems to strike him often, perhaps the mood stuck him around Lysa Tully Arryn? It's hard to imagine, but I don't think that Robert is unaware of how prolific he is, and perhaps he thought to give his foster father the heir he needed? I admit this is such a stretch, but the idea of the horned moon of cuckoldry hanging over the Eyrie and the idea of Robert the Horned God with it, is rather tantalizing.

But wait! Sweetrobin has brown hair, not black. We are never told about his eye color, but he is small, sickly, not robust by any means, and all of Robert's bastards that we have meet so far (Gendry and Mya) are tall and strong. But this bit of text stands out to me.


Well, it's almost laughable because Lysa seems to be in such denial that her sick and weak little boy is strong, but it does stand out to me. Robert's bastards are often noted to be strong, just as he was. Now, all this "seed is strong" seems to hint at Robert's seed in his bastards, and not the seed that was sewn with his trueborn children by Cersei, but here is Lysa Tully telling us that her husband grabbed her arm so hard he left bruises, he said Robert's name over and over (which Robert he meant, we don't know) and Lysa herself knows her son will grow up to be strong. It's enough to make me tilt my head a bit, and wonder ...

Could Jon Arryn, with is brothel and armory visits and his looking over huge old books and studying the breeding of hounds have discovered that his own heir was of Robert's seed? I know that Sweetrobin doesn't have the black hair that we see in Gendry and Mya and eventually Barra or Edric when we meet them, but the black hair only applies to Baratheon/Lannister matches, or to yellow haired mothers, and this would be Baratheon/Tully match, so we might not see Robert's head of coal black hair, although it seems like Sweetrobin should have either auburn or black hair, of which he has neither. I can certainly see a drunk Robert and a drunk Lysa falling into bed with each other. They were in Kings Landing together, and Lysa very much wants her child out of Robert Baratheon's reach. Is it just because of the fostering of Sweetrobin? Maybe it's something else.

And, just to add one more little hint onto the horned animal symbolism of the stag, of which Robert is certainly noted to be, we have this:


I would think that Mya darn well knows who her father is, but she jokes about him being a goat. A goat is another horned animal, just like a stag. And by gosh, Robert is as horny as a goat, so I really think this could be a tongue in cheek nod to Robert as the horned god, hinted at by the horned moon, and putting horns on Jon Arryn.


So, I think Robert is a possibility for Sweetrobin's biofather, if it comes down to that. However, I see Robert as a possibility of Robert having planted a lot of seeds. Robert Arryn never made it into my peach essay, so perhaps that should be my clue to walk away from this idea ...

... but the tinfoil is addictive. Like caffeine and chocolate and heroine!

So I am not quite done with my tinfoil. As discussed previously on different boards, and from people far wiser than me, there is the idea of the Horned God having a level of duality. I think wolfmaid7 has some nice work on this subject. We get the idea of the Oak King and the Holly King, two aspects of the Horned God who fight each other each year for supremacy.

The Summer King, Robert and the Winter King, Eddard.

A little information on the Oak and Holly Kings.



Lot's of information here, and I certainly don't see Ned as Santa Claus, but both the oak king and holly king are seen as fertility gods. We know that Robert is fertile, as he seems to scatter bastards all over Westeros with as much ease as swinging his hammer. Ned also seems fertile. We open the story finding out he has six children, five from his marriage and one bastard. In Catelyn's recollection, she feels she became pregnant with Robb the first time she slept with Ned (I understand there is some idea of Robb being the son of Brandon or another man, possibly, but for this, I will go with Cat's idea that she gave her maidenhood to Ned on her wedding night and bore him a son nine moons later that was Robb. I do think it's possible that Ned might have more children than we know about, but that is mostly speculation with no proof.

And another thing stick out to me, and that was something I referenced earlier in this post. The horned god is said to be theriocephalic (having a beast's head). We have several references to a man or boy with a wolf's head in our story. Could this idea fit Eddard? In Dany's dreams after MMD's tent ritual, Dany dreams of "the shadow of a great wolf", which I think is Ned, who was part of the sacrifice that allowed her to eventually hatch her dragons, and in her HotUD visions, she see's this "a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal." I know this is commonly interpretted to be Robb at the Red Wedding, but  the mute appeal links back to Ned, as he looked at Cat with "mute appeal" when Cat insisted that Jon must leave Winterfell. The leg of lamb hints at sacrifice, which Ned did just before his death with his lying confession of treason, and while Ned did not wear an iron crown, he was has King of Winter/King in the North imagery around him, as does Jon.

However, we do have this idea that Sweetrobin has brown hair, same has Ned, and he seems to have a gift of greensight that Ned's children all seem to carry, whether they are by Cat or some anonymous women. Now, I spun my Ned tinfoil in the previous post, and so I don't want to repeat myself much, but if Ned and Robert are two sides of the same Horned God fertility deity, then it is possible this horned moon symbolism is related to Ned as much as it is to Robert.

Would either have then intentionally tried to help their foster father, whom they both seem to love greatly, secure an heir for his kingdom? I think so. It also could have been accidental (as in drunkeness but Ned doesn't strike me as a stumbling drunk), but I still think it's possible he could have been mislead or drugged. Of course, Robert has much more access to Lysa than Ned does, but we don't know when Ned and Lysa might have crossed paths. A visit to Riverun, perhaps, or the Neddard being in Kings Landing while Robert was not there. A lot of people seem to cross paths at the Inn at the Crossroads, and all sorts of exciting things go down there.

I know this is perhaps right up there with the craziest stuff I have spouted, but this idea of "the horned moon" in the text is hard to ignore. GRRM is very intentional, and he did that for a reason.


And because I simply cannot stop...

Just something I came across recently in regards to the moon symbol of the vale. The wiki gives us a blue falcon outlined on a white full moon and a sky blue background. However, the Arryn sigil is never described in the text as any thing but "the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn, sky-blue and white'.

In both Sansa and Ned's chapter on the Hand's tourney, I noticed that Hugh of the Vale's cloak is bordered with crescent moons, and that stood out to me, perhaps also because both Ned and Sansa note those moons are soaked with blood. In the appendix of all the novels, the Arryn symbols is noted to be a crescent moon with a falcon's head over it. But the wiki gives a link to an SSM in which GRRM talks about this discrepancy and I though it was pretty interesting.

SSM on the Arryn sigil:
[Excerpt from a mail, concerning why the Arryn moon-and-falcon is so strangely stylized ...]

This is the cover art the GRRM is talking about



and I have to say I think it is pretty interesting at having once been almost the cover of the us hardcover. The direwolf is white on a dark(probably grey banner) on a white field. WTFook? Anyway ...


So the scene he is describing is from this very chapter that we are discussing. Not once does GRRM describe the banner in the text as he describes it in the SSM. As a matter of fact, it makes sense that the artwork would show a crescent moon, or even more specifically, a horned moon, since that is the only description that we get of the moon in this chapter. And then there is Hugh of the Vale's crescent moon border that doesn't fit the words that GRRM is saying either. After those Sansa and Ned chapters, I started looking into the moon. I was really looking for imagery of blood on or over a crescent moon, as we see with Ser Hugh, but what I found later in the text was that in each instance that the Moon Door at the Eyrie was described, it is noted to have a crescent moon on it. Why? If GRRM truly pictured a full moon as a sigil for the Arryn's, why not a full moon on the Moon Door?




So, the moon door is decorated with a crescent moon, and Robert Arryn's cloak pin is a crescent moon, and Hugh of the Vale's cloak is decorated in mulitiple crescent moons, yet GRRM tells us that he "always" pictured the Arryn sigil to be a full moon. What?

It seems odd to me. I don't want to say that GRRM is lying in this interveiw, but why the inconsistency with his words in the SSM and what he actually wrote. Does he think the crescent moon door gives some idea or hint away? And he is specific in his writing, I have no doubt. The only crescent that is described in this chapter is the wall of the way castle at Sky. Otherwise, we are given the description of "horned moon" and I do think the distinction is very important. It's got to be a clue! Often I think I overthink things, but this time, I think it's not overthinking at all...

Actually, I do wonder if Cat did encounter a wood's witch or some type of seer, I think it could be possible such a thing could be revealed. After all, Cat is still zombieing around the riverlands, and we know that The Ghost of High Heart pop's up at times around the brotherhood without banners. The Ghost had a vision of Cat's body in the river and her opening her eye's. When did the Ghost have this dream? In the passage it was implied it was recently, but perhaps this dream has haunted the Ghost of High Heart for many years.



And the Ghost also seems to have dreams about Sansa (and perhaps Arya) and certainly has strong feelings about Arya, who she says smells of death, and calls her blood child, wolf child, and dark heart. It would not shock me if the Ghost of High Heart had some connection to Cat Tully that was not just a vision of her death and resurrection.

And while Cat's decision's might seem not to make sense to us at times, if she is working from sort of knowledge (like Cersei thinking Tyrion will kill her, so she has been awful to him his whole like and even ordered his death, which is driven by her interpretation of a prophecy) maybe her decisions make sense to her. Even though we are inside Catelyn's head, I don't think she reveals everything to the reader. Just like the Neddard, some secrets are known but not thought of.