Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven.
Sept 12, 2018 15:54:38 GMT
DarkSister1001 and arrysfleas like this
Post by stdaga on Sept 12, 2018 15:54:38 GMT
I made it through Bran's chapters in Dance, as well as Jon's chapters I thought might deal with this location. Bran's journey seems quite long. It is possible that Coldhands is leading them around in circles, but could that circle be so close to the wall? Jon tell's us in Dance that the weirwood grove is two hours from Castle Black. The terrain is never really described in Jon's visit's to this grove, except they are in the dense Haunted Forest, but he never describes hills or valley's or villages, although in Dance-Jon VII, Jon does mention they have to cross a frozen stream about a half-mile from the grove. Still, they are very close to the Wall at this location, and in Jon's Game chapters, it is noted that a war horn that was signaled from near the grove should be heard at the wall.
On thing I found interesting reading this Jon chapter again (which has nothing to do with the location of Bloodraven's cave-oops!) was the mention of the nine people they found in the weirwood grove among the nine tree's. When I actually counted there are 10 people, so Jon is either not counting the giant or the baby. The giant, a mother and baby, two old men, a hornfoot and a Thenn, and two bodies, and a "pale faced crone with the stick-thin limbs, whom they had not been able to rouse". I am not sure why, but this pale faced woman is interesting to me. Does she get any other mentions in the story? Pale face reminds me of weirwoods and the use of the word crone seems to point to a wise, ancient woman. Anyway, nine (ten?) souls and nine weirwoods seems to be a point GRRM is trying to make. Looking back a few paragraphs, it seems to be the giant the Jon is not counting, and I guess technically a giant is different than humans.
As for Bran's journey, it seems to go on days and days and days. I think Bran is capable of exaggerating in his descriptions, but I don't know about being outright misleading about the amount of time. Bran says they are out of food that they brought with them for 10 days and then Coldhands feeds them the mystery meat that probably is night's watch brothers. After the elk dies 12 days before, they have meat to dine on for 7 days. Could they walk around in circles for at the very least 22 days only be two miles from the wall? I suppose it's possible, but Meera should have noticed that. I guess it could be a big circle, but the direction of the sun should tell her something, unless the forest is just that dense.
But they also come across a village by a lake, 12 hut's and a long hall. Could such a place be so close to the wall? It could be north of there, but then they would have needed to come back south to find the caves entrance. Multiple streams and lakes Bran says they have passed, with Varamyr's wolf pack following their trail much of the time. Also, if Summer defeated the wolf pack, but it was while he was being warged, are those wolves now part of Bran's pack?
It seems that the entrance to Bloodraven's cave is half-way up a hill or ridge, and Bran describes the hill as steep and thickly wooded. Bran must be exaggerating at this point, because he describes the entrance as half way up the hill, in a cleft between the weirwoods (so weirwoods grow on the slope) but uses Meera's words to point out the entrance is 1000 yards up the slope. 1000 yards??? That is 3000 feet, and it's only halfway up the slope, meaning the height of the hill is 2000 yards or 6000 feet? WTH GRRM??? That's a mountain. And it's nearly 10 times the height of the wall at 600-700 feet. This must be some huge oversite by GRRM. It sounds like Denver-the-mile-high-city rising in the Rockies! No way they climbed this slope with the sun setting and wights popping up like jack-in-the-boxes from the snow. Still, even if I dispute the numbers, the cave entrance is in the middle of a high hill. And this doesn't fit the description of the land around the weirwood grove near Castle Black.
Which brings my mind back to the Fist of the First Men. Jon's first look at it is described as "the hill jutted above the dense tangle of forest, rising solitary and sudden, its windswept heights visible from miles off". He describes the top as bare, brown and rocky, but does report that he left Ghost below in the tree's. Do any tree's grow up the slope? Even halfway up the slope? The tree line (the line above which tree's won't grow for lack of oxygen) is between 10,000 and 12,000 feet, so I don't know if this number might have something to do with GRRM's calculation of the height of the hill that Bran seems to be climbing. Sea-level is far different in most mountains, as even the valley's in the mountains can have elevations of 5,000 feet. I don't know how high any of this is, and GRRM has been wild and fantastical with his size descriptions in part of the story, but either some mountain peak or the Fist might fit the description that Bran is giving us for Bloodraven's cave.
An interesting thing is Ghost's reluctance to climb to the top of the Fist and his refusal to enter the ring fort, even with Jon tugging on him. Jon gives up and it's only later, after dark has fallen that Ghost enters the ring fort. If the ring fort is warded, is Ghost unable to pass? After dark, Ghost does come to Jon's fire, but he is pacing and restless and leads Jon out of the ring fort and down the slope, a slope he describes as steep and rocky. This could very will fit the terrain of the hill that Bran and Co climb to get to Bloodraven's cave.
But we don't really get a description of many weirwoods growing up the slope of the Fist, although Jon does see weirwoods dotted around the base of the Fist, mixed in with other tree's. There is certainly no report of a large weirwood grove on the top of the fist, or even stumps like Arya describes at High Heart. But Bran tells us that he thinks because of the amount of weirwood roots that line Bloodraven's cave that there must be a huge weirwood grove above them.
I have to say, I still don't really have an answer. The idea of the weirwood grove above Bloodraven's cave fit's the idea of the circle of nine near Castle Black, but the terrain doesn't fit at all, as we have no hint of a steep hill anywhere near that weirwood grove. A hill that tall would be easily seen from the wall and no one ever describes such a thing. Perhaps the cave is in a location we haven't seen from any POV but Bran's. I still plan to look at Sam and Chett's chapters that deal with the Fist, but I am not sure that it will clarify anything. GRRM is either inconsistent or he want's it to remain a mystery. I just like the appeal of the cave being near a location that we have seen before, and that would fit the impression I get of GRRM liking to fool/mislead his readers. But so far, I can't make the locations fit together.
On thing I found interesting reading this Jon chapter again (which has nothing to do with the location of Bloodraven's cave-oops!) was the mention of the nine people they found in the weirwood grove among the nine tree's. When I actually counted there are 10 people, so Jon is either not counting the giant or the baby. The giant, a mother and baby, two old men, a hornfoot and a Thenn, and two bodies, and a "pale faced crone with the stick-thin limbs, whom they had not been able to rouse". I am not sure why, but this pale faced woman is interesting to me. Does she get any other mentions in the story? Pale face reminds me of weirwoods and the use of the word crone seems to point to a wise, ancient woman. Anyway, nine (ten?) souls and nine weirwoods seems to be a point GRRM is trying to make. Looking back a few paragraphs, it seems to be the giant the Jon is not counting, and I guess technically a giant is different than humans.
As for Bran's journey, it seems to go on days and days and days. I think Bran is capable of exaggerating in his descriptions, but I don't know about being outright misleading about the amount of time. Bran says they are out of food that they brought with them for 10 days and then Coldhands feeds them the mystery meat that probably is night's watch brothers. After the elk dies 12 days before, they have meat to dine on for 7 days. Could they walk around in circles for at the very least 22 days only be two miles from the wall? I suppose it's possible, but Meera should have noticed that. I guess it could be a big circle, but the direction of the sun should tell her something, unless the forest is just that dense.
But they also come across a village by a lake, 12 hut's and a long hall. Could such a place be so close to the wall? It could be north of there, but then they would have needed to come back south to find the caves entrance. Multiple streams and lakes Bran says they have passed, with Varamyr's wolf pack following their trail much of the time. Also, if Summer defeated the wolf pack, but it was while he was being warged, are those wolves now part of Bran's pack?
It seems that the entrance to Bloodraven's cave is half-way up a hill or ridge, and Bran describes the hill as steep and thickly wooded. Bran must be exaggerating at this point, because he describes the entrance as half way up the hill, in a cleft between the weirwoods (so weirwoods grow on the slope) but uses Meera's words to point out the entrance is 1000 yards up the slope. 1000 yards??? That is 3000 feet, and it's only halfway up the slope, meaning the height of the hill is 2000 yards or 6000 feet? WTH GRRM??? That's a mountain. And it's nearly 10 times the height of the wall at 600-700 feet. This must be some huge oversite by GRRM. It sounds like Denver-the-mile-high-city rising in the Rockies! No way they climbed this slope with the sun setting and wights popping up like jack-in-the-boxes from the snow. Still, even if I dispute the numbers, the cave entrance is in the middle of a high hill. And this doesn't fit the description of the land around the weirwood grove near Castle Black.
Which brings my mind back to the Fist of the First Men. Jon's first look at it is described as "the hill jutted above the dense tangle of forest, rising solitary and sudden, its windswept heights visible from miles off". He describes the top as bare, brown and rocky, but does report that he left Ghost below in the tree's. Do any tree's grow up the slope? Even halfway up the slope? The tree line (the line above which tree's won't grow for lack of oxygen) is between 10,000 and 12,000 feet, so I don't know if this number might have something to do with GRRM's calculation of the height of the hill that Bran seems to be climbing. Sea-level is far different in most mountains, as even the valley's in the mountains can have elevations of 5,000 feet. I don't know how high any of this is, and GRRM has been wild and fantastical with his size descriptions in part of the story, but either some mountain peak or the Fist might fit the description that Bran is giving us for Bloodraven's cave.
An interesting thing is Ghost's reluctance to climb to the top of the Fist and his refusal to enter the ring fort, even with Jon tugging on him. Jon gives up and it's only later, after dark has fallen that Ghost enters the ring fort. If the ring fort is warded, is Ghost unable to pass? After dark, Ghost does come to Jon's fire, but he is pacing and restless and leads Jon out of the ring fort and down the slope, a slope he describes as steep and rocky. This could very will fit the terrain of the hill that Bran and Co climb to get to Bloodraven's cave.
But we don't really get a description of many weirwoods growing up the slope of the Fist, although Jon does see weirwoods dotted around the base of the Fist, mixed in with other tree's. There is certainly no report of a large weirwood grove on the top of the fist, or even stumps like Arya describes at High Heart. But Bran tells us that he thinks because of the amount of weirwood roots that line Bloodraven's cave that there must be a huge weirwood grove above them.
I have to say, I still don't really have an answer. The idea of the weirwood grove above Bloodraven's cave fit's the idea of the circle of nine near Castle Black, but the terrain doesn't fit at all, as we have no hint of a steep hill anywhere near that weirwood grove. A hill that tall would be easily seen from the wall and no one ever describes such a thing. Perhaps the cave is in a location we haven't seen from any POV but Bran's. I still plan to look at Sam and Chett's chapters that deal with the Fist, but I am not sure that it will clarify anything. GRRM is either inconsistent or he want's it to remain a mystery. I just like the appeal of the cave being near a location that we have seen before, and that would fit the impression I get of GRRM liking to fool/mislead his readers. But so far, I can't make the locations fit together.