Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven.

Well, I think there is a hint on the description of how the tree's grow and who might have wanted them to grow. Jon ties a slender weirwood to Bran, and so I wonder if a connection is to be made between Bran and all slender weirwoods. However, Bran himself is never described as slender in the text, so perhaps it is not him causing these particular tree's to pop up. I think it is, but I could also see how it could be Jon, who is described as slender, and if we find out some day that Jon is a powerful greenseer, too.

Other people tied to a slender description in the text that associate both the old gods and weirwoods are Meera and Jojen. If they are both slender, is it possible that one of their parents is slender as well? Could the slender tree's actually be a nod to Howland? I think he is going to turn out to be very important, he is tied to the ability to talk to tree's and weave words into magic and that is even before he visited the Isle of Faces. That young crannogman is also noted to be a tree climber, which possibly ties to Bran. Is Howland sending Bran messages the reason that he has been inspired to climb tree's since before he can remember?

If I had to bet money, I would say the slender tree's tie to Bran, but Howland is my wild card for second place in relation to the slender tree's. Jon is less likely, although he is noted to be slender.

Oh, I don't think that the slender ties to Bloodraven in the tree descriptions, but perhaps the twisted root's of the weirwoods tie back to Bloodraven. He is in a cave with twisted roots that have become a part of him, or he has become part of them. I do think it's interesting that Jon describes Bran's legs as "bent in ways that made him sick". It doesn't say twisted directly, but one definition of twisted is to be forced out of its natural or proper shape. I do think this could tie to Bran's fall being caused by Bloodraven, perhaps as a way to push Bran forward on his journey.

Well, turns out I can't follow your train of thought here... Are you saying these slender physical trees are sprouted by a greenseer, or are you thinking of dream trees? Personally, if I think in these lines, I'd say that they could appear in dreams like a tree (as we see in Jon's first on-page wolf dream, and in at least two of Bran's dreams), but I don't think they sprout physical trees. Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you... Sorry, if so...

Well, just because the Red Keep doesn't have a weirwood, it doesn't mean that Bloodraven isn't seeing his brothers and the woman he desired through different tree's in a different castle. Those people he is referring to don't need to be in the Red Keep. I guess I don't know what the Red Keep has to do with what Bloodraven might be seeing with these people he is referring to. Is that something from Dunk and Egg?

No, these things probably took place before the rebellion, if indeed that is the timeframe he's thinking of (which I think is most likely). Shiera, I think, lived at the Red Keep; Bittersteel lived with the Brackens for years, but he was trained as a knight at the Red Keep by Fireball; Daemon grew up at the Red Keep and was also trained by Fireball, while he was given lands and rights to raise a castle there is no evidence he did. As Bittersteel was a large part in Daemon revolting, as was Fireball, the probability was that they lived in the Red Keep for the important times, if indeed the rebellion is what Brynded is thinking of here.

The reason I brought this up is your line of thinking of slender weirwoods, physical weirwoods, as there are none in the Red Keep, slender or otherwise. As said above, in dreams trees might appear, but probably not physically. Or again, we're talking past each other.

And the Red Keep does have a heart tree and it has a face. It's a black oak, but perhaps a powerful greenseer could use all the tree's with faces? The tree's that have faces are connected at least in the fact that someone carved them in a similar manner, and perhaps with a similar intent.

Nope, it doesn't have a face.

How long he waited in the quiet of the godswood, he could not say. It was peaceful here. The thick walls shut out the clamor of the castle, and he could hear birds singing, the murmur of crickets, leaves rustling in a gentle wind. The heart tree was an oak, brown and faceless, yet Ned Stark still felt the presence of his gods. His leg did not seem to hurt so much.

Eddard XII

And we have no evidence they can use other trees to see through, nor a faceless one. According to Osha, the old gods can't keep an eye on Bran's family down south due to this. She might be wrong, but she might be right as well.

And it is possible that Bloodraven might not need tree's to see what he wants in the world now, but he might have at one time. I am sure that he grew stronger in his greensight powers as the years have passed and he might not need to tools he needed when he was starting too learn.

Personally, I think Brynden can see without trees, with what he tells Bran. If that was due to growing power, I don't know. It may be that he was very strong when he entered the weirnet.

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 17, 2018 19:39:00 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Sept 17, 2018 19:39:00 GMT

Well, turns out I can't follow your train of thought here... Are you saying these slender physical trees are sprouted by a greenseer, or are you thinking of dream trees? Personally, if I think in these lines, I'd say that they could appear in dreams like a tree (as we see in Jon's first on-page wolf dream, and in at least two of Bran's dreams), but I don't think they sprout physical trees. Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you... Sorry, if so...

I am probably not being very clear, because I am still turning so much stuff over in my head. I do think they could sprout physical tree's, but I am using Bran as a tree in Jon's dream as the connection between these types of tree's. I also am unsure if I think the slender tree with Bran's face is just a dream tree. I think it could be a physical tree somewhere, and it is through Ghost's eyes that Jon see's it. Right after that is when Ghost see's the wildling camp and then Jon is able to tell Qhorin the size and location of Mance's force.

The dream is a bit odd because it seems to start with Ghost missing his pack siblings, but then the tree call's "Jon" and yet it seems like it's Ghost that circles the tree (although it could be Jon, I suppose) and see's the face of his brother, who now has three eyes. Then after the tree touches Ghost/Jon's forehead, Jon feels like he is back in the mountains. This tree also grows out of solid rock, which is rather odd, since we are told that weirwoods cannot take root in the Eyrie because of the solid rock. Until recently I always interpreted the tree to be growing in a dream world, but I have begun to wonder if the tree might not have sprouted somewhere in the Frostfangs? Or at least a place that has a solid rock foundation. And if it can grow in rock, then their must be some power behind it. It's fairly cracked pot, I know! I should be posting in the Crack Pot Idea's Thread!

My own argument to myself is, IF Bran is popping up tree's allover the place, would they have carved faces? Very doubtful. Someone could carve the faces, but who? Another argument is when have we actually seen a tree carved with three eyes? I don't think we have.

Is this Jon's first wolf dream? He has his crypt dreams and he dreams of wights with his father's face, but I am not sure about wolf dreams. I might need to go back to that dream thread, if I can find it, and look at just Jon's dreams in chronological order.

The reason I brought this up is your line of thinking of slender weirwoods, physical weirwoods, as there are none in the Red Keep, slender or otherwise. As said above, in dreams trees might appear, but probably not physically. Or again, we're talking past each other.

We could be talking in circles around one another. Ooops! I guess I am mostly trying to associate the slender weirwoods to Bran. As to Bloodraven, I have no feeling on whether he could pop tree's up anywhere he wants, but he is powerful so I can't really doubt his abilities. It's a loose working theory and might be totally bogus. So, what ever tree Bloodraven is seeing his brothers and sisters through wouldn't need to be a slender tree. It might not need to be a weirwood either, as long as it has a face.

I do question the power of the heart tree in the Red Keep. It's an oak but is called a heart tree and I am going to assume it has a face. It's possible a very powerful greenseer, such as Bloodraven is, might be able to see through faces in tree's, even if the tree isn't a weirwood. It's also possible that powerful greenseer's don't need a tree or a face to see the world at all.

Nope, it doesn't have a face.

See, I would bet money that the oak has a face. It's very specifically called a heart tree, and this is what we are told about heart tree's.

Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face. AGOT-Catelyn I

I know it's from Cat, but some of this information might be GRRM speaking through her, trying to give us some world building information. It could be fallible, I suppose.

The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling." AGOT-Eddard V

Of course, this is one of my favorite passages in the story. I LOVE this line! :luv

I do think there is some power in this heart tree. Ned seems to feel he can give his thanksgiving to this heart tree (and all heart tree's have faces) just as if it was a weirwood. I also think that Sansa has a prophetic dream under this tree, and that also indicates a connection from the tree to Sansa.

In Dance we see the wildlings between Castle Black and Moles Town carving faces into tree's. An ash, a chestnut and an oak, and Jon thinks "The wildlings brought their gods with them after all. Jon was not surprised. Men do not give up their gods so easily." The majority of the wildlngs seem to worship the old gods, and now they have brought their god's with them, and placed their faces on these tree's. Interestingly enough, and I have debated the symbolism of this A LOT, Mormon't raven is sitting on a branch in the chestnut tree, and when he see's Jon he screams "corn, corn, corn". I think there is symbolism in each of these tree's, what kind they are, how they grow, what their faces look like, and in this case, the raven! Now, these tree's are not in godswoods, so I am not sure that they are considered heart tree's, but I am not sure they couldn't be debated as heart tree's connected to the old gods!

Personally, I think Brynden can see without trees, with what he tells Bran. If that was due to growing power, I don't know. It may be that he was very strong when he entered the weirnet.

Yes, Bloodraven might not need the tree's to see the world. I don't think a powerful greenseer would, at least eventually. Even Bran seem's to not need the tree after he eats the weirwood paste. He goes back to his sleeping alcove, and then his visions of what is the weirwood tree at Winterfell continue, although Bran isn't physically cradled in his weirwood throne like he was before.

Bloodraven is very powerful, I think, and would not need to physical connection to the tree's either. He might only still be in the cave because the tree's captured him, connected him to the weirnet physically and now he can't escape his throne in the tree's. But looking back into this passage where Bloodraven talks of his sister and brother's, he says he see's them still "through the tree's", so even if the Greenseer doesn't need to be connected to the tree's, perhaps what is being seen must be viewed through a face in a tree?

I just went though these Bran chapters the other day, and so they are pretty fresh in my head, but they always create more questions for me than answers.
:thinking

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 18, 2018 14:01:08 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Sept 18, 2018 14:01:08 GMT

I am probably not being very clear, because I am still turning so much stuff over in my head. I do think they could sprout physical tree's, but I am using Bran as a tree in Jon's dream as the connection between these types of tree's. I also am unsure if I think the slender tree with Bran's face is just a dream tree. I think it could be a physical tree somewhere, and it is through Ghost's eyes that Jon see's it. Right after that is when Ghost see's the wildling camp and then Jon is able to tell Qhorin the size and location of Mance's force.

The dream is a bit odd because it seems to start with Ghost missing his pack siblings, but then the tree call's "Jon" and yet it seems like it's Ghost that circles the tree (although it could be Jon, I suppose) and see's the face of his brother, who now has three eyes. Then after the tree touches Ghost/Jon's forehead, Jon feels like he is back in the mountains. This tree also grows out of solid rock, which is rather odd, since we are told that weirwoods cannot take root in the Eyrie because of the solid rock. Until recently I always interpreted the tree to be growing in a dream world, but I have begun to wonder if the tree might not have sprouted somewhere in the Frostfangs? Or at least a place that has a solid rock foundation. And if it can grow in rock, then their must be some power behind it. It's fairly cracked pot, I know! I should be posting in the Crack Pot Idea's Thread!

My own argument to myself is, IF Bran is popping up tree's allover the place, would they have carved faces? Very doubtful. Someone could carve the faces, but who? Another argument is when have we actually seen a tree carved with three eyes? I don't think we have.

Is this Jon's first wolf dream? He has his crypt dreams and he dreams of wights with his father's face, but I am not sure about wolf dreams. I might need to go back to that dream thread, if I can find it, and look at just Jon's dreams in chronological order.

I see. I'm on the dreamscape wagon myself. I don't see this at all. But good luck with the tinfoil!

[abbr data-timestamp="1537206494000" class="o-timestamp time recent_time" title="Mon Sep 17 2018 19:48:14 GMT+0200 (Vest-Europa (sommertid))"]19 hours ago[/abbr] shymaid said:

So, what ever tree Bloodraven is seeing his brothers and sisters through wouldn't need to be a slender tree. It might not need to be a weirwood either, as long as it has a face.

I do question the power of the heart tree in the Red Keep. It's an oak but is called a heart tree and I am going to assume it has a face. It's possible a very powerful greenseer, such as Bloodraven is, might be able to see through faces in tree's, even if the tree isn't a weirwood. It's also possible that powerful greenseer's don't need a tree or a face to see the world at all.

Nope, it doesn't have a face.

See, I would bet money that the oak has a face. It's very specifically called a heart tree, and this is what we are told about heart tree's.

Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face. AGOT-Catelyn I

I know it's from Cat, but some of this information might be GRRM speaking through her, trying to give us some world building information. It could be fallible, I suppose.

Well, does he mean all, as in literally every single one, or "all", as in the vast majority? Personally I take Ned's very specific mention of the tree NOT having a face, from within the godswood itself, way above Catelyn's more general assumption. Is there a (good) reason for first saying all heart trees have faces, for then to make note of one NOT having one? I find it more likely that this is should be noted, and finding out why it doesn't have a face.

Yes, Bloodraven might not need the tree's to see the world. I don't think a powerful greenseer would, at least eventually. Even Bran seem's to not need the tree after he eats the weirwood paste. He goes back to his sleeping alcove, and then his visions of what is the weirwood tree at Winterfell continue, although Bran isn't physically cradled in his weirwood throne like he was before.

He specifically tells us he doesn't:

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."
"When?" Bran wanted to know.
"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

He can see beyond the trees now, but who knows how fast he learned to do it? Bran is a newly awakened child, Brynden was an experienced old man with decades of experience with the "dark arts" when he was caught (yes, I say caught, though I don't meant to derail any further with it!) at the ripe old age of 77 (interestingly enough). I'd say he was quite powerful when he disappeared! Seems more like the paste is enough "to wed" the trees, being consumed by one could perhaps prolong one's life, but in the end not be needed.

Bloodraven is very powerful, I think, and would not need to physical connection to the tree's either. He might only still be in the cave because the tree's captured him, connected him to the weirnet physically and now he can't escape his throne in the tree's. But looking back into this passage where Bloodraven talks of his sister and brother's, he says he see's them still "through the tree's", so even if the Greenseer doesn't need to be connected to the tree's, perhaps what is being seen must be viewed through a face in a tree?

He also said the paste would "wed" Bran to the trees. Is Bran now a married ~~man~~ little boy? I'd say a tree would leave much wanted in a wife, but then I'm neither wed to a tree nor a greenseer.

According to Brynden, a greenseer is not robust, though I'd say both him and Bran definitely are; they have short years upon this earth, but he was, as mentioned, 77 when he entered the cave. Or is there much difference between a human and a CotF greenseer? There is another who fits this bill better than Brynden or Bran.

I read that as speaking metaphorically, as he seems to do quite a bit. "Seeing through the trees" might mean that the trees amplify their power enough to see everything, or close to it.

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 18, 2018 14:10:50 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Sept 18, 2018 14:10:50 GMT

Damn it! I missed this part!

In Dance we see the wildlings between Castle Black and Moles Town carving faces into tree's. An ash, a chestnut and an oak, and Jon thinks "The wildlings brought their gods with them after all. Jon was not surprised. Men do not give up their gods so easily." The majority of the wildlngs seem to worship the old gods, and now they have brought their god's with them, and placed their faces on these tree's. Interestingly enough, and I have debated the symbolism of this A LOT, Mormon't raven is sitting on a branch in the chestnut tree, and when he see's Jon he screams "corn, corn, corn". I think there is symbolism in each of these tree's, what kind they are, how they grow, what their faces look like, and in this case, the raven! Now, these tree's are not in godswoods, so I am not sure that they are considered heart tree's, but I am not sure they couldn't be debated as heart tree's connected to the old gods!

Are they worshiping the weirwoods themselves? Or trees with faces? Or just making a point?

Brynden tells us that the singers carved the faces, so can anyone assume that any person could carve a face in order to awaken it? Or does it require some spells or songs or something magical for the wanted effect?

Granted, Jojen claims that the greenseers can use all trees, but the weirwoods above all. But how much does he really know? Can we trust all he says?

Do the wildlings, the First Men, and the Crannogmen all worship the old gods in the same way?

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 18, 2018 16:39:16 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Sept 18, 2018 16:39:16 GMT

Personally I take Ned's very specific mention of the tree NOT having a face, from within the godswood itself

Where does Ned say that the tree does not have a face?

He specifically tells us he doesn't:

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."
"When?" Bran wanted to know.
"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

He can see beyond the trees now, but who knows how fast he learned to do it? Bran is a newly awakened child, Brynden was an experienced old man with decades of experience with the "dark arts" when he was caught (yes, I say caught, though I don't meant to derail any further with it!) at the ripe old age of 77 (interestingly enough). I'd say he was quite powerful when he disappeared! Seems more like the paste is enough "to wed" the trees, being consumed by one could perhaps prolong one's life, but in the end not be needed.

Well, to be precise, this quote from Bloodraven never states that he can see without the tree's. It says that Bran will be able to see without the tree's, that it will come, in time. It also ends with Bloodraven saying that the tree's are calling him, which is kind of odd, if you don't need the tree's any longer, why go back to them? I do think Bran has the potential to be much more powerful than Bloodraven. I speculate that Bloodraven might not need the tree's, but the text never tells us this directly. It's all part of that pesky implication that GRRM uses so well. Perhaps he knows that Bran will not need the tree's because he has seen it in a vision while he himself is tied to the tree's. This could indicate a time loop in place, which I know you don't love, but might be very possible.

Or is there much difference between a human and a CotF greenseer?

Hmmm! This is possible, that the long lives of the CotF seem to be cut short if they only live less than a hundred years or so, while that is a great life span for a human. It's also possible that perhaps Bloodraven isn't a greenseer by birth, but by magic, so his life span is different than most greenseers?

Are they worshiping the weirwoods themselves? Or trees with faces? Or just making a point?

Who knows. I bet if they could have found a weirwood, they would have carved that too! The Night's Watch seems to not want weirwoods in or near their castles, which is interesting, I think.

Brynden tells us that the singers carved the faces, so can anyone assume that any person could carve a face in order to awaken it? Or does it require some spells or songs or something magical for the wanted effect?

I don't know that GRRM has given us this information. He is vague on all of this stuff. But we do know that there are wildling woods witches, so one of these types could currently be south of the wall. Morna White Mask comes to mind, but she doesn't cross until Tormund does. And maybe anyone can carve a face. The people who worship the old gods don't need to pray before a septon in a Sept like the Faith of the Seven, they only need themselves and the tree's, so it's possible that any believer can carve a face.

As to the carving of faces, we have a few mentions.

"They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. AGOT-Bran VII

Here it seems like the greenseer's of the CotF carved their faces, but I guess it doesn't say that other's could not. Or how it works now that the children are pretty much gone from anywhere but north of the wall. Are their different rules for the First Men's worship?

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces. AGOT-Bran VII

This tells us that after the pact was singed by by the first men and the children and then the faces were carved on the tree's on the island. It doesn't say that the faces were carved just by the CotF. It also says the faces were carved on every tree. Does this mean that the Isle of Faces only has weirwoods, or that every type of tree that is there was carved?

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." ADWD-Bran III

"Their" heart tree's is perhaps a distinction to "the" heart tree's. Perhaps there are different rules for CotF and men.

Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. Giving up all the lands of Westeros save for the deep forests, the children won from the First Men the promise that they would no longer cut down the weirwoods. All the weirwoods of the isle on which the Pact was forged were then carved with faces so that the gods could witness the Pact, and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle.

With the Pact, the Dawn Age of the world drew to a close, and the Age of Heroes followed. TWOIAF: Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

This tells us it was the weirwoods were carved, not "every tree on the island was given a face" like Bran's statement from Game. What is more believable. I don't know. I have a healthy doubt about the World Book's information, especially since it is written by Septon's who might have every reason to be casting doubt on First Men history, or races like the Children or the Giants.

Granted, Jojen claims that the greenseers can use all trees, but the weirwoods above all. But how much does he really know? Can we trust all he says?

No more or less than we can trust anyone in this story. I feel like at the end of this series we are going to get like 5 shocking chapters that ties everything together and answers many of our questions, but until then, all we will have is vague clues and speculation.

Do the wildlings, the First Men, and the Crannogmen all worship the old gods in the same way?

Perhaps in a overview, but not in specifics, just like religious denominations in our day and age. Same principles but different prayers and practices. But it all comes back to God or the gods or however you personally see it.

ETA: I guess all of that was me not knowing for sure who can carve faces in the trees to make them "work". Can humans to this or is it just something CotF or greenseer's can do?

Last Edit: Sept 18, 2018 17:49:12 GMT by stdaga: add ETA!

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 19, 2018 8:38:01 GMT DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by shymaid on Sept 19, 2018 8:38:01 GMT

Where does Ned say that the tree does not have a face?

While he waits for Cersei in the godswood, in Eddard XII:

How long he waited in the quiet of the godswood, he could not say. It was peaceful here. The thick walls shut out the clamor of the castle, and he could hear birds singing, the murmur of crickets, leaves rustling in a gentle wind. The heart tree was an oak, brown and faceless, yet Ned Stark still felt the presence of his gods. His leg did not seem to hurt so much.
Eddard XII

I did point this out earlier.

And that quote from Catelyn is really not to be trusted at all, imo.

In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face.

Catelyn I, Game

She clearly states that the only weirwoods left in the south are on the Isle of Faces, while later we find a carved weirwood in the godswood in her beloved Riverrun... For the sake of argument, let's say this weirwood is a sapling. She shows no surprise at there being a weirwood there. How can that be?

Also she says that the north is different, and HERE every castle has a weirwood with a face. Not that all castles in the south has it.

I haven't been able to find, or remember, any other faceless heart trees. So I do find it interesting indeed that the godswood raised by the Targaryens is the only one noted not to have one!

I also checked Sansa's mentioning of godswood and heart trees, and I couldn't find one where she says the one in the Red Keep has a face either, so I'm fairly sure it does not. However, I'm not discounting Brynden having an eye on this godswood, considering this interesting note from her:

By the time she reached the godswood, the noises had faded to a faint rattle of steel and a distant shouting. Sansa pulled her cloak tighter. The air was rich with the smells of earth and leaf. Lady would have liked this place, she thought. There was something wild about a godswood; even here, in the heart of the castle at the heart of the city, you could feel the old gods watching with a thousand unseen eyes.
Sansa II, Clash

Still no face, though.

Well, to be precise, this quote from Bloodraven never states that he can see without the tree's. It says that Bran will be able to see without the tree's, that it will come, in time. It also ends with Bloodraven saying that the tree's are calling him, which is kind of odd, if you don't need the tree's any longer, why go back to them? I do think Bran has the potential to be much more powerful than Bloodraven. I speculate that Bloodraven might not need the tree's, but the text never tells us this directly. It's all part of that pesky implication that GRRM uses so well. Perhaps he knows that Bran will not need the tree's because he has seen it in a vision while he himself is tied to the tree's. This could indicate a time loop in place, which I know you don't love, but might be very possible.

I should have included an earlier quote from him perhaps.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."
Bran II, Dance

Perhaps he would be able to see Bran fall from the heart tree, but it's hard to say. Was he visible to the heart tree when he fell? Of course he could have seen that through a bird. But what about his and Ned's birth? Was that visible from the tree? Were the windows of the birthing room open, and not shuttered? Did he take his first steps outside or in from of a window with Brynden conveniently in a bird in the proper window at the time? If his first word were spoken inside, would he be able to hear it through the walls?

Is it a 100%? No, but it seems to me the most probable answer is that he is seeing outside the trees, and then not only from within a bird.

Hmmm! This is possible, that the long lives of the CotF seem to be cut short if they only live less than a hundred years or so, while that is a great life span for a human. It's also possible that perhaps Bloodraven isn't a greenseer by birth, but by magic, so his life span is different than most greenseers?

The humans and the children might have different "rules" for their greenseers, but if so why should we believe that any of the other "rules" apply to humans? Bran doesn't have red nor green eyes, he has the Tully coloring:

Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes.

Catelyn III, Game

Perhaps Bran will be a greenseer purely through magic as well. He doesn't have any other sign of being one, other than being a skinchanger.

Who knows. I bet if they could have found a weirwood, they would have carved that too!

Of course they would! Could they wake it, thoug? I doubt it. Carving might not equal waking; anyone could carve anything on a tree. I'd think waking a tree would require more than just a carving.

The Night's Watch seems to not want weirwoods in or near their castles, which is interesting, I think.

Or does the trees refuse to grow near the populated castles? What happened to the weirwood sapling at the Nightfort after Stannis claimed it?

I don't know that GRRM has given us this information. He is vague on all of this stuff. But we do know that there are wildling woods witches, so one of these types could currently be south of the wall. Morna White Mask comes to mind, but she doesn't cross until Tormund does. And maybe anyone can carve a face. The people who worship the old gods don't need to pray before a septon in a Sept like the Faith of the Seven, they only need themselves and the tree's, so it's possible that any believer can carve a face.

It's possible there is one, and just as possible there isn't.

This tells us it was the weirwoods were carved, not "every tree on the island was given a face" like Bran's statement from Game. What is more believable. I don't know. I have a healthy doubt about the World Book's information, especially since it is written by Septon's who might have every reason to be casting doubt on First Men history, or races like the Children or the Giants.

Written my the maesters, you mean? Well, Bran is tutored by a maester. Valyrian link or no, Luwin is still a maester. And the essence is the same.

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 19, 2018 8:40:43 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Sept 19, 2018 8:40:43 GMT

And DarkSister1001 , sorry to continue the derailing here! Everyone should pray to all possible gods that me and stdaga never, ever find ourselves in the same elevator... As I am Braker of Time to boot, we'd probably end up in a different timeline or a parallell universe of something... :tictoc

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 19, 2018 8:52:48 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Sept 19, 2018 8:52:48 GMT

As for a connection between Mance and Bloodraven. If Mance's story of his attack is true, it sounds like he was in a very bad state! Near death, perhaps? Just like Jojen and Bran, who then conveniently got a certain visit? Could Mance too have had a visit from the three-eyed crow, and perhaps another? Yes, I'm in the camp who doubt Brynden is the three-eyed crow, just to make that clear. Annywho, if he is getting visits in his dreams, his actions take on an interesting light, does it not?

Now, this doesn't make a link between Mance and Brynden by blood in and of itself. But if Mance were of Brynden's line, would he perhaps keep an eye on his descendant? I'd think so! In particular if Brynden doesn't have any other children.

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 19, 2018 15:35:15 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Sept 19, 2018 15:35:15 GMT

While he waits for Cersei in the godswood, in Eddard XII:

How long he waited in the quiet of the godswood, he could not say. It was peaceful here. The thick walls shut out the clamor of the castle, and he could hear birds singing, the murmur of crickets, leaves rustling in a gentle wind. The heart tree was an oak, brown and faceless, yet Ned Stark still felt the presence of his gods. His leg did not seem to hurt so much.
Eddard XII

I did point this out earlier.

I must have missed it in an earlier post. Thank you for reposting it. So, what designates something as a heart tree, I wonder? It has to be something that makes it stand out from other tree's in a godswood!

Of course, any POV can be fallible, but GRRM has been interesting in relation to "faceless gods of the greenwood" before. Such as, "the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest".

There seems to be a distinction he has pointed out before. Tree's with faces, tree's without faces! Which reminds me of this:

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere. AGOT-Prologue

So the first Other is described as having eyes that are deep, burning blue. The "they" that joined the first are described as twins to it. But they are described as faceless. But twins to the first, who is noted to have eyes. What features define a face?

He raced across the godswood, taking the long way around to avoid the pool where the heart tree grew. The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands. His wolf came sprinting at his heels. "You stay here," he told him at the base of the sentinel tree near the armory wall. "Lie down. That's right. Now stay." AGOT-Bran II

Again, a reference to the eyes of the heart tree.

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."

When they entered the grove, Samwell Tarly turned slowly looking at each face in turn. No two were quite alike. "They're watching us," he whispered. "The old gods."

"Yes." Jon knelt, and Sam knelt beside him. AGOT-Jon VI

All nine of these tree's have faces, but no details on what those faces entail. Is it eyes, a nose, a mouth? Could it be just eyes? Sam does note that they are "watching" which eyes are needed for.

Summer lapped at the water and settled down at Bran's side. He rubbed the wolf under the jaw, and for a moment boy and beast both felt at peace.

Bran had always liked the godswood, even before, but of late he found himself drawn to it more and more. Even the heart tree no longer scared him the way it used to. The deep red eyes carved into the pale trunk still watched him, yet somehow he took comfort from that now. The gods were looking over him, he told himself; the old gods, gods of the Starks and the First Men and the children of the forest, his father's gods. He felt safe in their sight, and the deep silence of the trees helped him think. Bran had been thinking a lot since his fall; thinking, and dreaming, and talking with the gods. AGOT-Bran VI

Again, bringing out attention to the "sight" of the heart tree.

"They're sad. Your lord brother will get no help from them, not where he's going. The old gods have no power in the south. The weirwoods there were all cut down, thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes?"

Bran had not thought of that. It frightened him. If even the gods could not help his brother, what hope was there? Maybe Osha wasn't hearing them right. He cocked his head and tried to listen again. He thought he could hear the sadness now, but nothing more than that. AGOT-Bran VI

Osha seems to tie the old gods to trees that have eyes vs trees that have no eyes.

"Freedom of the castle" meant that she could go wherever she chose within the Red Keep so long as she promised not to go beyond the walls, a promise Sansa had been more than willing to give. She couldn't have gone beyond the walls anyway. The gates were watched day and night by Janos Slynt's gold cloaks, and Lannister house guards were always about as well. Besides, even if she could leave the castle, where would she go? It was enough that she could walk in the yard, pick flowers in Myrcella's garden, and visit the sept to pray for her father. Sometimes she prayed in the godswood as well, since the Starks kept the old gods. AGOT-Sansa V

Here, Sansa doesn't mention any specific tree in the godswood at the Red Keep, just that she prayed there because the Stark's kept the old gods.

Even now, he did not know if he was doing the honorable thing. The southron had it easier. They had their septons to talk to, someone to tell them the gods' will and help sort out right from wrong. But the Starks worshiped the old gods, the nameless gods, and if the heart trees heard, they did not speak. AGOT-Jon IX

Another comment about the old gods, connected to no name, but to a heart tree, fairly specifically. Jon does mention the lack of both hearing or speaking in the heart tree's. In Clash, the tree at Whitetree most definitely has a mouth.

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

"An old tree." Mormont sat his horse, frowning. "Old," his raven agreed from his shoulder. "Old, old, old."

"And powerful." Jon could feel the power. ACOK-Jon II

Here we have the weirwood in the village of Whitetree. It's monstrous great tree, and of all it's features, Jon is disturbed by the mouth. Mormont says the tree is old, and Jon tells us he can feel the power. But it's not specifically described as a heart tree at this time, but a bit later, reference is made to "heart tree's" while they are studying this tree.

Jon said, "My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying."

"My father believed the same," said the Old Bear. "Let me have a look at that skull." ACOK-Jon II

I am just trying to feel out of some tree's have just eyes, while others might have more features???

Back to this passage from Game in relation to the heart tree in the Red Keep godswood.

How long he waited in the quiet of the godswood, he could not say. It was peaceful here. The thick walls shut out the clamor of the castle, and he could hear birds singing, the murmur of crickets, leaves rustling in a gentle wind. The heart tree was an oak, brown and faceless, yet Ned Stark still felt the presence of his gods. His leg did not seem to hurt so much.

She came to him at sunset, as the clouds reddened above the walls and towers. She came alone, as he had bid her. For once she was dressed simply, in leather boots and hunting greens. When she drew back the hood of her brown cloak, he saw the bruise where the king had struck her. The angry plum color had faded to yellow, and the swelling was down, but there was no mistaking it for anything but what it was.

"Why here?" Cersei Lannister asked as she stood over him.

"So the gods can see." AGOT-Eddard XII

Back to this quote that you first used. This is the tree that Ned chooses to talk to Cersei before, a place he feels the presence of the old gods. A faceless heart tree. But when asked by Cersei, Ned tells her "so the gods can see". Not hear or listen or smell, but see. Earlier, Osha tells us that the tree's need eyes to see. So, does this mean this tree could have eyes, but no other features that are often noted on faces?

I am just trying to puzzle all the odd, sometimes conflicting clues out. No wonder people can't decide on anything in this story when GRRM gives us seemingly conflicting information. And, if some tree's have different features carved into them, does it indicate a different purpose for the tree?

Man, that was a rabbit hole I slipped into...

Last Edit: Sept 19, 2018 18:17:05 GMT by stdaga

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

stdaga Vhagar Posts: 2,569 Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Long Night stdaga inherit Female 289 0 Apr 3, 2021 15:19:31 GMT 1,965 stdaga 2,569 Vhagar Dec 29, 2016 9:39:58 GMT December 2016 stdaga Long Night	Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 19, 2018 15:36:37 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by stdaga on Sept 19, 2018 15:36:37 GMT I must feed my horses, but then I hope to come back to the rest of your post, shymaid .
	Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 19, 2018 18:13:45 GMT DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by stdaga on Sept 19, 2018 18:13:45 GMT

She clearly states that the only weirwoods left in the south are on the Isle of Faces, while later we find a carved weirwood in the godswood in her beloved Riverrun... For the sake of argument, let's say this weirwood is a sapling. She shows no surprise at there being a weirwood there. How can that be?

Catelyn is certainly a questionable POV about many things, north or south. But if we can't trust what she tells us, then how can we hope to understand what she doesn't tell us? Or what can we take away from a possibly omitted reaction?

The humans and the children might have different "rules" for their greenseers, but if so why should we believe that any of the other "rules" apply to humans? Bran doesn't have red nor green eyes, he has the Tully coloring:

Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes.

Catelyn III, Game

Perhaps Bran will be a greenseer purely through magic as well. He doesn't have any other sign of being one, other than being a skinchanger.

I have wondered about this "gift" and the Stark children. Perhaps they do only have the warg/skinchanger gift based on magic? Perhaps that gift is different than the greenseer gift? Or perhaps they are warg/skinchangers by nature and greenseer's by magic? It's always been interesting to me that Jojen says he himself is not a greenseer, but he has green dreams and the greensight. And he has those moss green eyes, which is something we learn in Bloodraven's cave, that relates to special CotF, who had greenseer's with moss green eyes, as well as red, to distinguish them from the golden eyed greenseers!

It's all these odd little hints that seem almost in contradiction with other things we learn in the text that makes everything so difficult to figure out! Sometimes I really think that we think about this a lot more than GRRM ever has!

I should have included an earlier quote from him perhaps.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."
Bran II, Dance

Perhaps he would be able to see Bran fall from the heart tree, but it's hard to say. Was he visible to the heart tree when he fell? Of course he could have seen that through a bird. But what about his and Ned's birth? Was that visible from the tree? Were the windows of the birthing room open, and not shuttered? Did he take his first steps outside or in from of a window with Brynden conveniently in a bird in the proper window at the time? If his first word were spoken inside, would he be able to hear it through the walls?

Is it a 100%? No, but it seems to me the most probable answer is that he is seeing outside the trees, and then not only from within a bird.

It's hard to see how the heart tree face could peer into the window's of Catelyn's birthing chamber, I agree. So perhaps it is through the eyes of a raven that BR could have seen this. Creepy as it is, there might very well be ravens perched outside to see such things. Or maybe someday we will hear odd things about giving birth in front of a heart tree in the godswood! :-/

Although I really don't see this path. Although at work recently we were discussing trends in medicine and what people can and will do with placenta's, including taking them to be buried outside, which some native american tribes still promote. Could a placenta buried under a heart tree give you a connection to the birth?

And yes, I am in the Way-beyond-cracked-pot stage now! ;-|

As I said up thread, I imagine that Bloodraven does not need the tree's, but the text never gives us that information explicitly. It is implied however, and the quote you use helps. But it's also interesting that there is the reference associated with Bloodraven of "a thousand eyes and one". Why the one? It is just a catchy thing to say, or does the 1000+1 mean something else?

I'm in the camp who doubt Brynden is the three-eyed crow, just to make that clear. Annywho, if he is getting visits in his dreams, his actions take on an interesting light, does it not?

The story does seem to imply that the three-eyed crow is someone different than Bloodraven. My strongest inclination is that this 3EC is Euron Greyjoy. My second guess is that it is Howland Reed. My tinfoil suggests it could be a Stark, either Benjen or Jon, if some time of coexisting time-loop is going on in the story.

f course they would! Could they wake it, thoug? I doubt it. Carving might not equal waking; anyone could carve anything on a tree. I'd think waking a tree would require more than just a carving.

You know I really don't know. It does seem like the story hints that the tree's are alive. If so, then does the carving of them wake them? Give them eyes? Is there some magic spell that needs to be chanted, or blood spilled to "wake" the tree's? Is it something completely different than carving them? So far, I can't determine anything.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood. ADWD-Bran III

One almost would think that the tree could be being "awakened" with this blood sacrifice (as I have seen speculation about), but Bran is already able to watch what his happening before the blood is spilled, so the tree must already have been awakened.

Or does "waking the tree" involve the first time a greenseer uses the tree?

Oddly enough, Bran uses this same phrase, "taste the blood" when he is warging Summer while Summer feeds.

"Trees? No . . ."

"They do," Bran said with sudden certainty. "They dream tree dreams. I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me. The wolf dreams are better. I smell things, and sometimes I can taste the blood." ACOK-Bran IV

Perhaps the blood is about feeding a gift, not necessarily about waking it? That is if the gift of the tree's and the gift of the warg is similar in nature. It might not be, of course.

Or does the trees refuse to grow near the populated castles? What happened to the weirwood sapling at the Nightfort after Stannis claimed it?

I suppose we well find out about the weirwood in the Nightfort eventually, but it was growing through a skylight in the kitchen, and if they are making repairs, then it might be destroyed to do this.

But just the fact the tree is growing in the Nightfort seems to indicate that the tree's don't refuse to grow near the wall. It's there, it's growing. As to populated or not, what are you thinking could be the link between people and no people? It's a curious idea.

I have always thought it odd that the castles on the wall don't have godswoods, but they seem to have septs. Grenn even points this out when Jon wishes to take his vows before a heart tree. I don't know why their are no weirwoods or heart tree's or godswoods in the Night's Watch castles, but my tinfoil radar thinks it must have some thing to do with the Night's King. I could be very wrong about that, though.

Written my the maesters, you mean? Well, Bran is tutored by a maester. Valyrian link or no, Luwin is still a maester. And the essence is the same.

True. But Bran is also tutored in many ways by Old Nan and her stories.

"Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces," said Bran. "Was he green?" In Old Nan's stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn't see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. "I bet the old gods sent him." ASOS-Bran II

It seems that Old Nan must have talked about the Isle of Faces to Bran, since he remembers her talking about the guardians at the Isle of Faces and what they looked like.

As to the Isle of Faces, just it's name hints at more than an average amount of faces in the trees. Is it all the trees or just certain trees? I have no idea.