I thought just hit me while reading about this cave, and about the wights outside it.
The text implies that they are trying to get inside the cave, but can't due to the warding. When they pop out of the snow, they are quite a few yards away from the entrance. Which is kinda weird (no pun) when thinking about it. At other times, the wights seem to be single "minded" about their mission, in a lack for a better word, so why are they so far off from the entrance, seemingly scattered around the hillside? Wouldn't they be closer to the entrance/end of the warding area?
Is it possible they are not trying to get in the cave at all? Are they protecting it from intruders, stopping all living things from entering?
That would make sense on some level, but I'm still conflicted about Catelyn's words on every heart tree having a face. Of course, several things that she does and says leave me conflicted.
Haha, Catelyn's nature is to be both conflicted AND conflicting!
And we also have Jeor Mormont telling Jon to say his pledge in front of the heart tree and then he describes the weirwood grove north of the wall. It's a grove of nine tree's, all with faces, but it's not in a godswood, and there is nothing around it to indicate it ever was in a godswood or that it's the heart of something.
As I see it, no godswood exists outside a castle. Outside they are just trees and groves. Holy places, depending on religion, but not a godswood.
I agree that some of the tree's are described with mouths, but not necessarily in all of them. I don't know if it is implied that they all do, or its an important omission that some are not mentioned as having mouths. Or eyes, specifically. These faces also seem to change. Sometimes the heart tree at Winterfell is described as solemn, and sometimes with a laughing mouth. I don't think you can be both solemn and laughing at the same time, so the expression on the tree changes, or it comes down to interpretation of the viewer.
I have some tinfoil on that changing, but it needs much more work before it can be presented in any way.
Whether he feels the presence of them or not, his words indicate sight. And he is seated right in front of that oak heart tree. But is there a tree with a face that is close, or is this GRRM attempting to confuse the shit out of us? No face, but it can see?
Is Ned being literal with "the gods can see"? Things of importance is done before heart trees, and that is one of the reasons for Ned talking to Cersei here (the privacy there another, methinks). And he knew the tree was faceless. So I don't find it odd that he uses that term.
As mentioned, that quote from Sansa indicates Brynden having a presence, so maybe it's him Ned feels. Maybe that was another reason for his choosing in spite of the faceless tree.
I have always found it interesting that Cersei does not seem to lie to Ned in this scene. Nor does he seem to lie to her. All of the accusations she throws at him, and the only one he comments on or disputes is that he doesn't kill children. Does Ned omit lying about the other accusations by not addressing them at all.
As far as I know, the only one who lies in front of a heart tree is the brainwashed Theon in Dance. All other instances I can remember, no one lies in front of them, not even followers of other gods.
This scene between Ned and Cersei is something I have looked at often, and it always feels like I am missing stuff. Apparently, I missed the "faceless" detail, so I am actually missing reading the lines as well as reading between them!
Haha! Are you by chance wearing a tinfoil helm? My understanding is that the eye slit tends to be narrow on helms.
All joking aside, that detail stuck in my subconscious only. I didn't remember it, but wasn't surprised when reading the quote.
Yes, so far it seems to be the only godswood heart tree that doesn't have a weirwood connection. But I am curious about some the the castles in the reach that are connected by descent from Garth Greenhand. John the Oak's family is Oakmont and their castle is Old Oak. No hint of the godswood tree, but the family imagery is certainly oak inspired. Could their heart tree be an oak?
I doubt it. While the oak might be prominent there, as they were First Men at one point, the heart tree is probably a weirwood.
But specifically, I can think of no defined godswood without a weirwood heart tree. Except perhaps Storm's End, now, after Mel and Stannis stopped by to visit.
I know... (the weirwoods are creepy, but I still dislike the burning of them for some reason...)
Speaking of that duo, they did not burn any godswood at Dragonstone. So there wouldn't be one there I'd guess. Which makes sense in combination with the faceless heart tree of wrong wood in the Red Keep.
My experience with babies and labor, that no matter how long you try to keep your legs crossed for, they eventually find their way out! But I very much doubt my own mostly-joking-tinfoil in relation to birth and the heart tree. Although I would not by pass the idea of placenta's being buried under the tree, and that perhaps a tree could connect to a life force through the placenta. Lot's of cultures see importance of the placenta and membranes that feed and incubate a fetus. Whether Luwin would allow such a thing is something else, altogether.
I did write that leg-crossing tongue in cheek. (Though I remember reading many years ago about a woman who had a calcified baby in her womb. Village woman in Middle - or South America, I don't remember where. Apparently she'd not wanted to have male doctors there during her labor and left the hospital and gone home. The baby stayed inside her and calcified. I won't make any claim of truth of this tale, mind you! You just had me down memory lane there !)
I wonder if you can ever actually kill one. High Heart is chopped down, but Thoros still cannot see his visions in the flames in this sacred place, and the Blackwoods have their dead tree in the godswood, but does it's lack of leaves and bark really indicate it's dead and not connected to the weirnet. Jaime's weirwood stump dream also comes to mind in regards to a cut tree! I even question items made of weirwood, like doors and tables and beams and chairs! Do they still have some connection to the weirnet?
Perhaps if they cut down the tree, and hack up the root far down in the earth, and then burn it all. Perhaps it dies then. Leaving stumps? That won't work!
I agree! I wonder this too! It's like we 'd each other's thoughts!
I can't get away from the thought that the change in religion has some effect on the magic side. Not the magic in the Wall itself, but perhaps in some magic the Watch has in its arsenal. Can any brother open the gate at the Nightfort? We only see Sam do it, and he took his vow in front of the weirwoods. At the Fist, only northmen recite that same part of the oath before the attack, which I find too coincidental and so makes me suspicious...
It seems unlikely, but sometimes people need to follow orders. Jon would not like it, I imagine, but would he feel he had to do it if his superior officer told him he had too? He does allow the burning of weirwood branches in Mel's fire when the wildlings cross the wall, but he certainly doesn't like it.
Honestly, at the very least he'd make a huge fuss about it! That being said, depending on the LC, those asked to do that might be followers of the Seven.
Only if every tree on the Isle of Faces is a weirwood? Or only if the greenmen are above ground? What if they are connected to the roots of the tree's. Or perhaps the green men that are supposed to guard in the isle of faces relate more to the Sentinal tree's and soldier pines in our story that the weirwoods?
I haven't given much thought to that isle with so little information to go on. Or the green men.
Sometimes the heart tree at Winterfell is described as solemn, and sometimes with a laughing mouth. I don't think you can be both solemn and laughing at the same time, so the expression on the tree changes, or it comes down to interpretation of the viewer.
rather than interpretation of the viewer, i think the face might be reflecting the feelings of the viewer.
I haven't given much thought to that isle with so little information to go on. Or the green men.
i had a go once. It's all in this thread. Probably mostly wrong though! but i did find some things which i found surprising. And I spent a bit looking at Jojen's words.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
i had a go once. It's all in this thread. Probably mostly wrong though! but i did find some things which i found surprising. And I spent a bit looking at Jojen's words.
I always felt like they were strategically placed to keep Bran from entering and that seems to be their single task.
That might very well be the case! Question is, who wanted to stop him?
Just toying with the idea of two fractions if CotF at this time, and so wondering if one of those placed the wights there. Of course it could be the Others or something.
The Others seem to be searching for a Stark and/or VS blade (original Ice?). The way they look Waymar up and down and he has similar Stark features.
I don't argue against them looking for a Stark, but does Waymar resemble them? As far as I can see, we never hear the Royces having a Stark-like look to them. Of Waymar we get this:
Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. Ser Waymar had been a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch for less than half a year, but no one could say he had not prepared for his vocation. At least insofar as his wardrobe was concerned.
This has elements of Jon - grey eyes, slender and graceful, but not much more.
Of Robar we get this:
Dusk was falling when Catelyn left the pavilion. Ser Robar Royce fell in beside her. She knew him slightly—one of Bronze Yohn's sons, comely in a rough-hewn way, a tourney warrior of some renown. Renly had gifted him with a rainbow cloak and a suit of blood red armor, and named him one of his seven. "You are a long way from the Vale, ser," she told him.
Catelyn III, Clash
And when Sansa sees him at the Hand's Tourney, she never notes that he has a Stark-like look.
Of their father, Bronze Yohn, we get this:
Last of all came the Royces, Lord Nestor and Bronze Yohn. The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound. Though his hair was grey and his face lined, Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands. His seamed and solemn face brought back all of Sansa's memories of his time at Winterfell. She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well. He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. "Lord Royce," she asked timidly, "will you have a cup of wine, to take the chill off?" Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. "Do I know you, girl?"
Alayne I, Feast
He has his son's grey eyes, and his face is noted as solemn here. And again, she isn't reminded of her father's Stark look when she vividly remembers him in the yard in Winterfell.
However, Sansa might not be trusted in this way. In her sample chapter, she doesn't note the Waynwoods having a Stark look, while it could be argued that they have it (at least that is implied, and they do have Stark blood from some generations back).
So I can't say I'm convinced the Royces are so similar, but the Others might very well be looking for Starks.
That might very well be the case! Question is, who wanted to stop him?
IMO the Others. It's not crockpot but it's not neatly tied together with a bow either. The Starks and Others seem to have history. The Last Hero and the NK are rumored to possibly have been Starks. Bran the Builder built the Wall after the LN. There's also the Kings of Winter and Winterfell.
Also, the Others reanimating the dead seem like a version of Skin Changing.
IMO the Others. It's not crockpot but it's not neatly tied together with a bow either. The Starks and Others seem to have history. The Last Hero and the NK are rumored to possibly have been Starks. Bran the Builder built the Wall after the LN. There's also the Kings of Winter and Winterfell.
Also, the Others reanimating the dead seem like a version of Skin Changing.
Could be them, to be sure.
As for the possible tie between these two, it's possible. I haven't had time or energy to really chop all that up yet. Too much info to sort through, and I want to do it all at the same time. Unfortunately, I only have one body at this time...
As I see it, no godswood exists outside a castle. Outside they are just trees and groves. Holy places, depending on religion, but not a godswood.
That makes sense. So far I can find no godswoods that exist outside of castles, but I do think it's interesting that Mormont states Castle Black "needs no godswood" and directs Jon to the grove north of the wall. Why does it not NEED a godswood? It does have a Sept, so does that mean it NEED's a Sept? Just rather odd wording from Jeor, but I don't know if it has a deeper meaning or not.
Is Ned being literal with "the gods can see"? Things of importance is done before heart trees, and that is one of the reasons for Ned talking to Cersei here (the privacy there another, methinks). And he knew the tree was faceless. So I don't find it odd that he uses that term.
As mentioned, that quote from Sansa indicates Brynden having a presence, so maybe it's him Ned feels. Maybe that was another reason for his choosing in spite of the faceless tree.
Perhaps the gods can see in any "godswood" and the heart tree has some other significance that hasn't been revealed yet. I speculate it has to do with sacrifice, but I can't tie it together yet. Although, for the most part, it's the heart tree that has a face, but as we are discussing, the heart tree at the Red Keep does not seem to have a face, but is still called a heart tree. So, perhaps the face has nothing to do with the "heart" of the godswood. I still think it's interesting that twice we see Ned seek the heart tree in the godswood at the Red Keep. He seems to see or feel some power in it, whether it has a face or not.
As far as I know, the only one who lies in front of a heart tree is the brainwashed Theon in Dance. All other instances I can remember, no one lies in front of them, not even followers of other gods.
That scene with Theon is interesting. He certainly lies, as he claims out loud that Jeyne Poole is Arya Stark of Winterfell. He even thinks he and Jeyne should tell the truth, although the truth would mean their deaths. It's interesting Theon is set up to tell this lie, not Ramsay or Roose but they seem to follow the old gods and might have some fear or superstition about this. He also has an interesting thought that seems tie a quick death to the old gods, but knows that death will be the consequence of the truth that Jeyne is not Arya. So, perhaps the truth would have better served Jeyne and Theon. A quick death might be better than the fates they face now? Theon seems to be somewhat on a redemption arc, but that doesn't mean that GRRM doesn't have a terrible fate in store for him. As to Jeyne Poole, she has lead a pretty terrible fate as Ramsay's bride, and knowing what she knows now, she might have chosen death over Ramsay.
But it is a lie in front of a heart tree, and that is sort of an anomaly in the story. What we are told is that no man can lie in front of a heart tree? Does this mean man as in mankind, or in gender? Does it have something to do with Theon being asexual now, as he isn't really a complete man any more? Could Varys lie in front of a heart tree? And use this to manipulate a believer?
Haha! Are you by chance wearing a tinfoil helm? My understanding is that the eye slit tends to be narrow on helms.
All joking aside, that detail stuck in my subconscious only. I didn't remember it, but wasn't surprised when reading the quote.
I think I am always wearing a tinfoil helm! In this case, it might be stuck on my head and turned backwards, like what happened to Jaime at the Hands Tourney. I might need someone to lead me to safety ...
I know... (the weirwoods are creepy, but I still dislike the burning of them for some reason...)
Speaking of that duo, they did not burn any godswood at Dragonstone. So there wouldn't be one there I'd guess. Which makes sense in combination with the faceless heart tree of wrong wood in the Red Keep.
I don't see any reference to a godswood on Dragonstone, but we hear nothing about any weirwoods being burned there, only the statues of the seven, which are actually dragged outside the castle's sept to be burned, which might be important. I don't know. But we do have a Targaryen godswood at the Red Keep with no apparent weirwood, so maybe there is a godswood at Dragonstone that doesn't have a weirwood, and if so, then we have two Targaryen castles with no weirwoods, and that could be a pattern. But why don't they have a weirwood? Fear? Knowledge? Something else?
I did write that leg-crossing tongue in cheek. (Though I remember reading many years ago about a woman who had a calcified baby in her womb. Village woman in Middle - or South America, I don't remember where. Apparently she'd not wanted to have male doctors there during her labor and left the hospital and gone home. The baby stayed inside her and calcified. I won't make any claim of truth of this tale, mind you! You just had me down memory lane there !)
Yes, lithopedion's. They certainly happen. Rare and in relation to pregnancies that occur outside the uterus but inside the abdomen. These are referred to as "stone babies" per Greek translation. Thanks for the reminder. They are very interesting and I have heard of them but never given them any thought in relation to this story, but it now makes me wonder about the idea of the "stone dragon" that we are trying to wake in this story. Could there be any relation? Would GRRM know of such a thing? How could he translate that to a dragon baby? Could you wake one? I need to think on this a little bit.
Perhaps if they cut down the tree, and hack up the root far down in the earth, and then burn it all. Perhaps it dies then. Leaving stumps? That won't work!
My gut instinct tells me no matter what is done to the weirwood, it never loses it's connection to other weirwoods.
I can't get away from the thought that the change in religion has some effect on the magic side. Not the magic in the Wall itself, but perhaps in some magic the Watch has in its arsenal. Can any brother open the gate at the Nightfort? We only see Sam do it, and he took his vow in front of the weirwoods. At the Fist, only northmen recite that same part of the oath before the attack, which I find too coincidental and so makes me suspicious...
I am not sure about what happened at the Fist. We get this from a rattled Chett's POV. Mormont starts it, then Mallador Locke continues it, then other's join until everyone is saying to words. Even Chett and Sweet Donnel Hill, who must be from the Westerlands, as well as the other conspirators. So, I am not sure that the heart tree oath taken by northmen has any significance with the Oath at the Fist. And just a quick thought on Ser Malladore Locke, who is the second person to speak part of the Oath on the Fist. House Lock might be from the North, but Malladore is a knight, which means he took at least his knightly vow in a Sept. I see no reason to think he might not have taken his Night's Watch vow in a Sept, also. I don't see how we can ever get a confirmation on this.
As you question, we have no idea if the Black Gate only works for people who took their oath in front of a heart tree. It's a good theory, and one that I see has potential, but still just a theory. Maybe it only works for Sam? Probably not and it's the words that are important, not the person or where they took their oath.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Sometimes the heart tree at Winterfell is described as solemn, and sometimes with a laughing mouth. I don't think you can be both solemn and laughing at the same time, so the expression on the tree changes, or it comes down to interpretation of the viewer.
rather than interpretation of the viewer, i think the face might be reflecting the feelings of the viewer.
As in who is viewing from the tree? This is possible. But I am not entirely sold on that, either. I do think this is something we will learn more about, if we eventually get more books.
I also think it's possible the face on the tree stay's the same, and it's expression could be interpreted a bit different based on the view's thoughts.
An open mouth could be seen as a smile, a scream, a face that is eating, but it all could depend on the view. Just like taking a still shot and trying to understand what was going on, where as a video would make the interpretation easier.
I will need to look into your theory on the green man, and that might alter my thoughts. Hopefully I can look at that later today.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
As I said up thread, I imagine that Bloodraven does not need the tree's, but the text never gives us that information explicitly. It is implied however, and the quote you use helps. But it's also interesting that there is the reference associated with Bloodraven of "a thousand eyes and one". Why the one? It is just a catchy thing to say, or does the 1000+1 mean something else?
I looked a little into this, perhaps not enough, but I think I found some interesting things.
We hear that phrase again and again in Dunk and Egg, after Aerys I takes the throne and makes Brynden his Hand. There was also made a song about him, we learn from Dareon on the ship from the Wall to Braavos. In all these instances the wording is:
"a thousand eyes, and one". It's only in the cave, from himself and Leaf that we get "a thousand eyes and one" with no comma. I'm far from any expert on the English language, but perhaps I still got the gist of the meaning. If only I can explain myself in the right way...
Ok, I'll take the roundabout way!
What I immediately thought of with that phrase, when thinking of where that came from, was "One Thousand and One Nights", or better known in English as "Arabic Nights". The collection of collection of Middle Eastern and South Asian stories and folk tales compiled in Arabic during the Islamic Golden Age. (Best known in the West is the stories of Aladdin, Ali Baba, and Sinbad the Sailor, though these stories were actually added by the first french translator, so now you know that as well!)
The number 1001 in Arabic ( usually phrased as "one thousand things and one thing") is a generic term for "a very large number" and not an accurate one. In relation to Brynden and his spies, nobody knew how many spies he had or who they were. But he seemed to know everything, and so suspicion between neighbors grew up and wild tales that he had crows and other animals reporting to him. (Or were they so "wild" in truth? )
"One Thousand and One Nights" itself might be getting a nod as well. Or several depending on how you see it.
The story in the book is about King Shahryār, a Sasanian king ruling in India and China, found out his wife was cheating on him. He got so angry he had her executed, and every wife he married after that was killed shortly after their wedding to prevent the same happening again. Until he married Scheherazade, who started telling him a story on their first night together. She didn't finish the story, and as he wanted to know the end he let her live. The next night she finished this story and started another. And so she was allowed to live another day. She kept on doing this "for one thousand nights and one night" (= for an unkown time ), until he withdrew her death sentence (for differing reasons depending on the version, there are many).
Not that Lord Brynden Rivers used unfinished tales to keep his enemies at bay! But there is the theme of using cunning to achieve your goal. But this is far from everything!
This collection of stories were not appreciated in the Arabic world, they preferred poetry; but they were much appreciated in Europe, and has inspired many a writer, (very) big and small! Including one who gets lots and lots of nods in this story: Lovecraft!
The use of themes and techniques in this collection is easy to recognize: frame story (or framing device), embedded narrative, dramatic visualization, fate and destiny, foreshadowing, repetition ('the purposeful repetition of words' to show a motif or theme), sexual humour, unreliable narrator , crime fiction elements, horror fiction elements, fantasy and science fiction elements, and poetry. Yes, I actually mentioned all of them!
So as a nod, this could be quite a big one!
There are other possibilities as well, with a couple of older movies - "The Night Has a Thousand Eyes" and "The Thousand Eyes of Dr. Mabuse" which both involves a psychic in some sort. The first one is also a song title from 1962, but I don't know if Martin likes that one.
Lastly, there might be a mythological tie as well. In my language we have the idiom of watching something "with Argus eyes"; I'm sure we're not the only ones with that expression, but I haven't come past it in English yet. It comes from the Greek myth of Io, a beautiful maid that caught the eye of Zeus. And as so often happens in these myths, Hera got jealous and turned her into a white heifer and then demanded her as a gift from her husband. She then tied the heifer to an olive tree. But Hera could not depend on Zeus not finding her, so she appointed a giant with superhuman strength to guard her, called Argos Panoptes, after he had slain a fierce bull which ravaged Arcadia, a Satyr who robbed and violated persons, the serpent Echidna, which rendered the roads unsafe, and the murderers of Apis, who was according to some accounts his father. She gifted him with a hundred eyes (the number varies with versions), so he could always keep an several eyes on everything around. He could watch all directions, and with so many eyes he could rest a few while the others kept watch.
Zeus knew, of course, and he got Hermes to slay Argos. In some stories he stoned the giant to death, in others he put the giant to sleep with his flute and cut his head off. Afterward, Hera placed the hundred eyes on the tail of her favorite bird, the peacock.
There is a difference between a hundred and a thousand, but I think it could fit non the less. Like that Arabic phrase, these hundred eyes seem generic as well. Argos was a guardian, so was Brynden. Argos could see everything that was going on in this region, Brynden "saw" everything in his. Argos slew dangerous creatures and men, so did Brynden (though this could be argued, depending on which men). Argos was guarding a cow, Brynden was not (!), but there are women in this story as well. A heifer is a cow who has not had a calf yet, in other words a maiden cow. And a beautiful on at that. And we do have beautiful maidens in the drama that played a role in the wars that came.
So, to tie this back to that pesky comma I mentioned at the top! And this is in the generic use of the term. "A thousand eyes, [comma] and one" is used by Westerosi big and small, educated and not. As Brynden himself only has one eye (another thing pointed out several times in Dunk and Egg), and an unknown number of spies, I think it can be "translated" into something like "a thousand spies, and one eye". In the cave, Brynden claims all those eyes as his own. But of course, now his abilities are way stronger than they were when he was quick! In a way you could say he really has a thousand eyes and one! Even if he's confined to see through trees, he has an untold number of them to see through. He also have ravens at his disposal, and the gods only know how many of those there are... So one meaning all those years ago, and a slightly different meaning now.
I hope this mini-Wall was to the reader's satisfaction, and relevant!
That makes sense. So far I can find no godswoods that exist outside of castles, but I do think it's interesting that Mormont states Castle Black "needs no godswood" and directs Jon to the grove north of the wall. Why does it not NEED a godswood? It does have a Sept, so does that mean it NEED's a Sept? Just rather odd wording from Jeor, but I don't know if it has a deeper meaning or not.
Well, I'd think it's the men who follow the Seven who NEEDS a Sept. As for not needing a godswood, I'll put that in one of my pots for now!
Perhaps the gods can see in any "godswood" and the heart tree has some other significance that hasn't been revealed yet. I speculate it has to do with sacrifice, but I can't tie it together yet. Although, for the most part, it's the heart tree that has a face, but as we are discussing, the heart tree at the Red Keep does not seem to have a face, but is still called a heart tree. So, perhaps the face has nothing to do with the "heart" of the godswood. I still think it's interesting that twice we see Ned seek the heart tree in the godswood at the Red Keep. He seems to see or feel some power in it, whether it has a face or not.
Well, I can't see past that this godswood was planted by Targaryens. And no pun intended there! Other than that, for now I can only re-mention Sansa's thoughts of there being "a thousand unseen eyes" in that godswood, which is a rather interesting phrase!
I don't see any reference to a godswood on Dragonstone, but we hear nothing about any weirwoods being burned there, only the statues of the seven, which are actually dragged outside the castle's sept to be burned, which might be important. I don't know. But we do have a Targaryen godswood at the Red Keep with no apparent weirwood, so maybe there is a godswood at Dragonstone that doesn't have a weirwood, and if so, then we have two Targaryen castles with no weirwoods, and that could be a pattern. But why don't they have a weirwood? Fear? Knowledge? Something else?
No, no mention of a godswood or a weirwood there at all. Which is really rally interesting! I can't wait for Fire and Blood right now!
That scene with Theon is interesting. He certainly lies, as he claims out loud that Jeyne Poole is Arya Stark of Winterfell. He even thinks he and Jeyne should tell the truth, although the truth would mean their deaths. It's interesting Theon is set up to tell this lie, not Ramsay or Roose but they seem to follow the old gods and might have some fear or superstition about this. He also has an interesting thought that seems tie a quick death to the old gods, but knows that death will be the consequence of the truth that Jeyne is not Arya. So, perhaps the truth would have better served Jeyne and Theon. A quick death might be better than the fates they face now? Theon seems to be somewhat on a redemption arc, but that doesn't mean that GRRM doesn't have a terrible fate in store for him. As to Jeyne Poole, she has lead a pretty terrible fate as Ramsay's bride, and knowing what she knows now, she might have chosen death over Ramsay.
A quick death, eh? Like the one Joff served Ned?
I had noticed that Roose and Ramsay leaves the lying to Theon, so they don't have to do it themselves. I'd think it's safe to say it'd because of not wanting to offend the gods. Another scene I have to let simmer some more before I say unintelligent things, I fear.
But it is a lie in front of a heart tree, and that is sort of an anomaly in the story. What we are told is that no man can lie in front of a heart tree? Does this mean man as in mankind, or in gender? Does it have something to do with Theon being asexual now, as he isn't really a complete man any more? Could Varys lie in front of a heart tree? And use this to manipulate a believer?
Is it that a man cannot lie in front of one, or that the gods will know and punish those who do?
The question of Theon still being a man is up for discussion, but is Reek a real person (=man)?
I think I am always wearing a tinfoil helm! In this case, it might be stuck on my head and turned backwards, like what happened to Jaime at the Hands Tourney. I might need someone to lead me to safety ...
Well, that's a better alternative than what happened to Valarr's helm while it was resting on his father Baelor's head! So watch out for, erm, try not to hit your head too hard!
And if you can find your way to my very nice and very large rabbit hole (without breaking your neck or loosing half your skull), your welcome any time!
Yes, lithopedion's. They certainly happen. Rare and in relation to pregnancies that occur outside the uterus but inside the abdomen. These are referred to as "stone babies" per Greek translation. Thanks for the reminder. They are very interesting and I have heard of them but never given them any thought in relation to this story, but it now makes me wonder about the idea of the "stone dragon" that we are trying to wake in this story. Could there be any relation? Would GRRM know of such a thing? How could he translate that to a dragon baby? Could you wake one? I need to think on this a little bit.
Oh, gods! Did I just open another of Pandora'sstdaga 's boxes?!?
Perhaps you just found the origin of Stone Men! They come from Stone Babies!
How that could translate into dragons, I have no idea! I just pictured Catelyn with five stone babies in her belly after refusing to give birth in front of the heart tree... She already has a stone heart...
I am not sure about what happened at the Fist. We get this from a rattled Chett's POV. Mormont starts it, then Mallador Locke continues it, then other's join until everyone is saying to words. Even Chett and Sweet Donnel Hill, who must be from the Westerlands, as well as the other conspirators. So, I am not sure that the heart tree oath taken by northmen has any significance with the Oath at the Fist. And just a quick thought on Ser Malladore Locke, who is the second person to speak part of the Oath on the Fist. House Lock might be from the North, but Malladore is a knight, which means he took at least his knightly vow in a Sept. I see no reason to think he might not have taken his Night's Watch vow in a Sept, also. I don't see how we can ever get a confirmation on this.
As you question, we have no idea if the Black Gate only works for people who took their oath in front of a heart tree. It's a good theory, and one that I see has potential, but still just a theory. Maybe it only works for Sam? Probably not and it's the words that are important, not the person or where they took their oath.
Well, my starting point is that I find it hard to believe the (drastic) change in religion has no meaning at all. Not so much for the sake of religion itself, but in this world they are tied to powers. And the old powers are waking.
The First Men can take their vows in front of the weirwoods. The children are in the weirwoods. So the First Men take their vows *cough* face to face *cough* with those who hold the power (or some of it at least).
And according to legend they helped make the Wall back in the day. That help might entail more than just building the Wall, and that part of the oath is very interesting in this light, I think.
I'm not claiming to know exactly what happened, nor that this alone set off the attack, but I see this as a possibliity. Most words might be wind, but some are not. And as noted, there are weirwoods not so far from the Fist. They might have heard. As could others...
As for Locke. There is very little consistency with sers in the North, so Locke being a ser might mean little and less. Any knight can make a knight, after all. We don't know how or when he became one, as far as I know. While standing a vigil and getting anointed and such are the most common practice, not all do that.
This whole tinfoil is in the very early stages, and needs more work to be sure! And perhaps more books... And me actually getting so far as to reread closely and not distracting myself all the time...
I also think it's possible the face on the tree stay's the same, and it's expression could be interpreted a bit different based on the view's thoughts.
yes, kind of the same thing. The magic in the tree reflects the viewer's feelings. 'Glamour, glamour' becomes 'Mirror, mirror..'
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."