Aerys II: mad or prophetic?

It's something I have just associated with Vys. But you are correct that it makes sense to assume he got it from somewhere and it certainly fits as a Targ legacy

Tywin thinks he has stolen his heir and that is certainly the practical effect of it. I just think we should suspect that Areys' motivations were not always what people assume. I am definitely not committed to the notion that Aerys was trying to avoid death by golden lion, but it's an interesting possibility

In essence, madness is seeing the world in a way that culture does not. In the case of the mad Targs, their unintelligible perspective seemed to lead to a great deal of death and violence, from the perspective of those around them, pointless death and violence

Interesting question. I have thought in terms of the individuals he has wanted to see 'fly.' But maybe there is an archetypal 'bad man' behind the wish. If Sweetrobin's obsession with 'make him fly' is due to dreams, his perspective is third person, where for Bran and Dany, it is first person. Sweetrobin doesn't want to fly, he wants to cause someone else to fly. Maybe his fear of falling causes him to project it onto someone else?

It looks like a fear of falling, but maybe it is a tie to the Eryie.

I agree that the most important transition point is the loss of Jami's hand. But there are certainly other factors. I agree that there isn't anything clear that indicates that time is darkness is one of those factors, but the timing of it is interesting. But even that is highly ambiguous even as a factor in his change

The darkness may or may not have re-shaped his outlook, but even with the arrogant nature of the thought, it is odd that he had it. And since we don't have his earlier POV, I guess we don't really know whether he often had thoughts of doing something noble just to shock people

These thoughts are definitely a bit bizarre. I wonder why the Targs married brother and sister. (The children of the ancient Egyptian kings often did, btw).

IIRC, Dany later claims that she knew what was going to happen because she had a dream. But I don't think we ever see anything that indicates that she really did. At the time, it seems like an odd compulsion

Your observations around this are interesting. Maybe the area did have some function. Aegon may have built KL to destroy something, or in ignorance of it

There were a lot of tunnels in old Valyria. I wonder if there is a connection?

I'd have to do it just right.. After all, wildfire will damage a blade

I agree that we might be surprised at Aerys' motives and I certainly hope we learn a little bit more about him.


I don't know. It's something that I find really puzzling. And perhaps part of our gap is because we don't have a Sweetrobin POV, so we don't know what his dreams might be, what he hears (singing, I guess) and sees, and what happens when he seems to have a seizure. I know there are theories that this is happening when someone is using Sweetrobin to see through. I was reminded of this recently when reading about how the Mountain, when he was injured by Oberyn, was shaking and shuddering on his death bed. Of course, it could be poison that is causing this, but what if the Mountain has been used as a portal for someone to "see" through, also. I think is is said that Gregor suffered from massive headaches and I wonder about him being used as a portal, like Sweetrobin is, off and on for his whole life?


Well, there is certainly an idea about the Eyrie that is very safe. And it really, really is hard to attack. We see that in the conquest. If it wasn't for the Targaryen dragons, they never could have threatened the stronghold of the Arryn's. Oh, a long siege and starvation might have got them eventually, but still, I would probably feel safe in the Eyrie, as well. If I wasn't puking from the terribly high heights! Yuck!


He has been in a dungeon for months, and he acts like an asshole to Cat while in the dungeon (so much so that she kicks his shit pail at him), and he acts like an asshole to Brienne and Cleos when he get's out of the dungeon. I don't think it changed him. Now, I could see it's possible that his time in the darkness weakened him in some way, made him susceptible to change, but I don't think it starts until after his time with Brienne. And yes, the eventual loss of his hand (which is sadly all he identifies as being special in himself) is a major turning point. But again, it is Brienne who wills him to live. He doesn't do that for himself, it is her prodding that gives him a reason to rally. Honestly, maybe all of Jaime's positive changes should be credited to Brienne? They are a very interesting duo!


I am really beginning to toy with this idea. It's very new to me, but I am excited to see what I can find in the text that might support this. I was just rereading Jaime's interaction with Aerys when he talked about the maps where all the wildfire is kept in Kings Landing. What happened to those maps? Jaime tells us that he killed the pyromancers, but we are given the impression that the wildfire remains in all the locations that it was hidden. Some of it was even found before the Battle of the Blackwater, but not all of it. Not nearly! I am suddenly finding it very ironic to consider that Jaime, who once killed the mad king to save the city from being destroyed, might be the one to purposefully destroy the city. If Jaime knows where those maps are at, he has the power to set of a huge explosion. I know the story hints at Cersei's infatuation with wildfire and her joy in the burning of the Hand's Tower. So it's easy to see that she might be the destroyer of the city. But how ironic if it was Jaime, who once saved the city. I could argue that Jaime was more worried about saving the people in the city, and not the city itself, and perhaps he would destroy the city easily if it was evacuated. I don't think Jaime has any love for the capital.



Like a physical connection? I would expect that all of the tunnels and caves in the world might share a connection, like an ant hill. But Valyria seems interesting because it was a heat source with it's volcano's, so it hints to be of a connection to Dragonstone and Winterfell, as places with geothermal activity. Perhaps Hardhome?


Haha! Indeed! Thoros taught us that!

Physically, yes. But I am talking about making a physical choice that has emotional ramifications. Jaime choosing to cut his hair, and therefore lose one of his more noted physical qualities, might be an example of the start of his characters emotional growth.



Sure, but it still needs to start somewhere. And I am sure that many people will disagree on where that change might start, and that's fine. If we all saw the text the same what, what fun would that be?



Well, whenever you are ready, hit me up with a tag, as I find Jaime to be a very fascinating character and would love to discuss his arc in further detail.


That is how I read this statement, I guess...


I guess I am just a bit confused with this statement. You seem to say that after he emerges from the dungeon's Jaime purposefully remains as he was/acts as he previously did, because it is easiest for him. You also say that after he has lost his sword hand, he is "forced to change", which indicates that is the moment of his change, therefore it could not be before that moment, and seem to indicate that if he had not lost his sword hand, then he would never have been "forced" to change.

Now, I am sure that the time in dungeon's was hard on him, physically, but his pride is probably more wounded by his loss in the Whispering Wood (as you point out) than his captivity. In this society, some warriors win, and some lose. The ones that lose seem to either die are taken captives and held as hostages or ransomed. I think Jaime is a realist about either dying or being captured, and he understands that they can't ransom him for less than he is worth, so I interpret that he understands his time in the dungeon's for what it is. However, I am sure it wasn't easy for him. Prison doesn't seem easy for anyone. I don't mean to focus on that one statement but it seems it really stuck in my head.

And again, all this talk of "when" Jaime started to change doesn't really have anything to do with your OP about Aerys, but I do find the idea of the white cloak and gold armor interesting, because it is mentioned several times in the story, and not just from Jaime's POV. Looking back on the very first line that introduces Jaime to us in the story is from Eddard and it reads, "There came Ser Jaime Lannister with hair as bright as beaten gold", which is interesting to me because it is Jaime's hair that Ned seems to focus on here, not his cloak or his armor. That comes in Ned's next POV, when remembering Jaime after Aerys death. Interestingly, from Ned's POV, he doesn't focus on Cersei's hair color at all, which most descriptions of her do. Or even Tyrion, who Ned just describes as "stunted". This focus on Jaime's gold hair seems a bit odd, but has nothing to do with Aerys's madness, just something I have isolated from the initial descriptions of the Lannisters in the text.



Thanks. I just worked 5 nights, and we had no precipitation at all, and now today, I have a day off and some time to do yard work and it's raining and it will probably turn to snow later. I might just not rake until spring at this point, which is fine, as I really don't like to rake at all!



I'm sorry if I was unclear. The Stark's have their racing direwolf while Robb is associated with a direwolf's head, at least on his shield, although I don't know if he had his own actual banners. I don't think it's odd that Rhaegar would have his own sigil or banner, I just think it's interesting that is what Ned's memory focuses on. Why doesn't Ned focus on the generalized Targaryen banner instead of Rhaegar's? It does seem to be that is an indication that Ned was looking for Rhaegar (he should have been close to his own banner or standard) on the Trident. But another way to read that could possibly be that it was Rhaegar's banners that represented the Targaryen forces at the Trident, and not the regular Targaryen banner at all. Did those banner's even make it to the Trident?



I gotcha now! Yes, the wording is a bit similar to either child birth, miscarriage or even menses. I agree on that, I just wonder what ignited that in Dany the night "before" she was wedded and bedded? I think something happened, but I can't quite figure out what it was, and it takes a huge blank in her memory since we get this all from her POV.



It's an odd thing because it follow's the Frey's getting the news that Stevron Frey has died and this seems to fulfill Jojen's words to Bran about how the Frey's will enjoy their rotten meal more than Bran will enjoy his feasting meal. The interpretation fit's but the dream doesn't really fit the actual events at all.

Then, Jojen starts with his sea coming to Winterfell and talking about "drowned men" in the courtyard. But is this men who have died because of the iron born or is it the iron born themselves, who follow the practice of the drowned god and the priests who "drown" the iron men. Jojen names three people from Winterfell in his dream, Alebelly the guard, Chayle the Septon and Mikken as well. Now, they all three seem to be killed, but what if they could rise again, as drowned men sometimes do. Hard to imagine that working for Mikken or Alebelly, but Chayle, perhaps? I just think it's possible that Jojen misled Bran a bit on this prophecy, not intentionally, but because of the previous dream/prophecy. It has never made sense to me that Jojen didn't try to encourage Luwin to be more on guard, or to help Bran hide. Of course, these events probably needed to happen for the plot, but looking back on it, some of this seems avoidable.

Still, this is an example of Jojen apparently describing his dream as he see's it.  I just wonder if there is some thing skewed that happens between the time of his dream and the time the words come out of his mouth. And I might be overthinking it, no doubt!


Haha! Not fake weather reports. I meant that because the Targaryen's power was so strongly based on their dragons, that when they lost that, their power started to slip away, and other houses in Westeros seen that "climate" of power was changing. Had been for years! Eventually it seems that many houses were joining to try to change the power base in the kingdom, with marriage alliances and by have children serve as wards to lords outside of their own kingdoms. And the Targaryen's must have been somewhat aware of what was happening, and therefore tried to increase their power in other ways, in an attempt to hold on to their rule of the kingdoms.


I am not certain she even knew what she was trying to do. But I do think the gradual work she was doing helped the process. You can incubate certain eggs to make them hatch but it's a delicate process and takes time and specific requirements, but if you throw a bunch of fertile eggs into the fireplace, you probably are going to end up with exploded eggs. You will just have charred yolk and egg whites and burned shells and there will be no little fire-breathing chick's running around.

It's a creepy fun possibility. Or that part of Gregor still exist's in his remains along with something/someone else. This is rather what I think could be going on with Lady Stoneheart. Tinfoil to the extreme, but I have for a long time felt like Catelyn and Robb coexist in Cat's body, but now I think there is the possibility of Grey Wind being in there as well. Three heads in one body...

So, what kind of spirit or force could be in Ser Robert Strong? In part, perhaps the spirit of the man that battled him that day at the Red Keep. A little of Oberyn not wanting to leave this world? Of course, there is no indication that Oberyn could be a skinchanger but his nickname of the Red Viper has always intrigued me. All these animals in sigil's or with nicknames seem worth some consideration. But mostly I am connecting Oberyn and Gregor's "deaths" near the same time, much like we see with Robb and Cat's at the Red Wedding. Sometimes there are mirror's in the story that are not as clear as others. I wonder if this is one of them. How the psyche's of Gregor and Oberyn would wrestle and struggle and scream and cry if they battled within the same vessel? IF this is happening (which I admit is pretty crazy talk) then I wonder if Qyburn knows? And if Cersei should beware? And if there is a third entity in play? Something more powerful that is controlling the show for the most part? This might also mirror three heads in one...



I don't suppose we will ever have a concrete jump point from our author on this, and he will leave it up to his readers to determine.



If not a physical connection, what kind of connection are you thinking for this?



Sounds fun! And chilly! That sounds like a July type of enterprise!