stdaga,My isnt Haldon interesting. Clean shaven, ties his hair up in a topknot and is learned, although not as learned as Tyrion. For some reason he is reminding me of Qhorin Halfhand, who was also clean shaven, well kept, had a thing about his hair and was very far from a fool.
The way Illyrio talks about young Griff and the way his shoulders slump when he realises he can’t see him, that is more the reaction of a parent who wants to see their child.
Within a page or two of the shrouded lord being mentioned, thoughts turn to Gerion Lannister. I see where the connection is being made now.
stdaga hank you. Qhorin Halfhand is my number one most intriguing character. A seriously talented, respected, valued, intelligent ranger sacrificed himself for a 16yo bastard. Why!? There has to be a pretty damn good reason but I’m short on specific ideas. All I have is the general feeling that he is part of something much bigger, involving at least Mance and possibly Benjen and BR. And that he must believe that Jon is part of a very important prophecy. why else do you SACRIFICE yourself? No one else in the books sarifices themselves. It’s a total one off and out of character for the author.
Until you made your comment above I hadn’t even considered the similarity of the names. These are the only two characters in the books whose surnames start with Half- and yet they share a very similar look. It takes me down the rabbit hole of wondering whether Halfhand didn’t refer to anatomy but to political position. I can’t claim to take it any further than this yet, but I wonder if they could be characters who were half way to being a Hand and a Maester to someone very important at some point. Something to mull on.
i have been trying to find a connection between or a destination for Ned's friends and KG at Toj . to me Half hand gives up his life for Jon as a former KG member so he could be Dayne or Whent . then when i heard the mention that Half Maester could be connected to Qhorin it got me thinking that some of the combatants could have gone to the Wall and some to Essos with Aegon .
My isnt Haldon interesting. Clean shaven, ties his hair up in a topknot and is learned, although not as learned as Tyrion. For some reason he is reminding me of Qhorin Halfhand, who was also clean shaven, well kept, had a thing about his hair and was very far from a fool.
stdaga hank you. Qhorin Halfhand is my number one most intriguing character. A seriously talented, respected, valued, intelligent ranger sacrificed himself for a 16yo bastard. Why!? There has to be a pretty damn good reason but I’m short on specific ideas. All I have is the general feeling that he is part of something much bigger, involving at least Mance and possibly Benjen and BR. And that he must believe that Jon is part of a very important prophecy. why else do you SACRIFICE yourself? No one else in the books sarifices themselves. It’s a total one off and out of character for the author.
Until you made your comment above I hadn’t even considered the similarity of the names. These are the only two characters in the books whose surnames start with Half- and yet they share a very similar look. It takes me down the rabbit hole of wondering whether Halfhand didn’t refer to anatomy but to political position. I can’t claim to take it any further than this yet, but I wonder if they could be characters who were half way to being a Hand and a Maester to someone very important at some point. Something to mull on.
There is a very interesting similarities in names between the Halfhand and Halfmaester, but it's not something I have thought about before. Qhorin is one of the more intriguing characters of the story, or at least I find him so. His overall plan that includes Jon and Ghost is full of questions and oddities, and it seems like the whole group that travels with him and Jon are willing to give their lives. For Jon? What is the connection? What is the goal? I know the OotGH has built a major series of theories around who these men might have been before, what the goal is now, etc. Perhaps they are correct? I don't know, but for Qhorin to want Jon (or Ghost) along for their mission seems a bit odd.
BUT sometimes I wonder if it's how GRRM had to tell the story to get a POV in the mountains, and some of it is as simple as that. No major plot, just men of the Night's Watch giving their life to duty and oath. I know that's not as fun to think about, but I do think that GRRM does have limits to what he can tell us based on his POV and at that time, I think Jon was the only POV for the wall and the ranging. I don't think Sam get's a POV until Storm.
But back to Qhorin. As I stated, I do find him interesting. He is a good swordsman, much better than Jon at this point of the story, and using his off hand to fight. I think there is more to his backstory than a wildling axe, honestly. Qhorin comments to Jon that he knows his "father" but that is rather vague, too. I assume it's Ned he means, but it could be another character in disguise. I have some tinfoil that Qhorin is Arthur Dayne, and years ago at the toj, Ned let SAD keep his life and start a new one on the wall, and in our current story, Qhorin is paying that gift back to Jon, by helping him live. No real proof, just a gut feeling, and some tinfoil I have about Qhorin's true hand injury! I don't expect this to turn out to be how the story plays out, but until GRRM gives us more narrative, I can keep my bit of tinfoil alive.
As to Qhorin and Haldon, there are some similarities. You mention the name thing, which is interesting, but I don't know what to do with that similarity yet, if ever. You also mention the neat appearance, the apparent intelligence/education of the men, and the hair (Qhorin a braid and Haldon a top-knot/man bun) and both are clean shaven, I think. But one that I think is also interesting is that both men have grey eyes. Why? I think GRRM is littering our text with grey-eyed people on purpose but I am not sure why. Jon notes that Qhorin has "shrewd grey eyes" but doesn't comment on that fact that he himself has grey eyes. Are there many grey eyed people in Jon's life? Haldan is noted by Tyrion to have "cool grey eyes" which I think is very interesting because the only other person noted to have "cool grey eyes" in Brandon Stark. Catelyn describes his eyes as "the cool grey eyes of a Stark". So does Haldon have the eyes of a Stark, and if so, what does that tell us?
I know many speculate that Haldon Halfmaester is Walys Flowers who was also the Maester at Winterfell prior to the rebellion. If so, we have a Stark maester with grey eyes. Maester Luwin also has grey eyes. What is that all about? Do they share blood of the Starks? Is it more related to blood of the first men? Or are they all somehow descended from the same person, who might have lived 10,000 years ago? I really have no answers, only questions, but keep my eyes open in the text for more clues or hints.
The way Illyrio talks about young Griff and the way his shoulders slump when he realises he can’t see him, that is more the reaction of a parent who wants to see their child.
Years ago, my speculation was that Young Griff/Aegon was Illyrio's child. As you point out, this reaction of Illyrio's doesn't really fit his character, and does indicate a sadness about the lack of contact. But in more recent times, I have come to suspect that Illyrio is playing a game always, and his action/reaction might have been to confuse or throw Tyrion off. I still see the possibility of Young Griff being Illyrio's (and his Serra's) and perhaps a Blackfyre pretender to the throne. Personally, I think the Blackfyre's should have had the throne because I think Daemon Waters/Blackfyre was the son, not of Aegon IV, but of Baelor the Blessed, making Daemon the true heir to the throne, and all of his descendants that follow the true heirs. However, that is more tinfoil I have cooked up based on a few hints and a lot of speculation...
I have also speculated over time that Young Griff is the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia. Or he could be a bastard taken out of a Lysene pillow house, as could Dany! I find it hard to think he is a Stark, but he might be; I know there are theories about this. I really have nothing concrete on Young Griff, and I think GRRM can work his story in multiple ways around this character and his goal and destiny. I do speculate that Dany and Aegon will battle each other in a second Dance with Dragons, while the true fight is being fought in the north with no help from the dragons!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. AGOT-Daenerys IX
It's been a year since I last read the books so I don't remember exactly quotes
Now about Aegon - I don't believe in Blackfyre theory so I am either R+L=A or R+E=A - since you mentioned Daario and his blue hair I would love to say I think Daario IS a Blackfyre. Serra could be descendant of Saera Targaryen especially after release of F&B or it could be another Stark clue since there is a Stark bastard named Sara Snow who married Jacaerys Velaryon. Do you think sentinel cherry trees around the Bakkalon figure from Illyrio's palace has any importance? I always thought that figure was supposed to be Aegon himself and not young Illyrio.
@canityrto OoTGH believes Qhorin could be Oswell Whent, was he the one who talked about Lady Whent? and they speculate Haldon being Walys Flowers now I will admit I don't know how true their theories are so I will wait for TWOW to learn more about these men.
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. AGOT-Daenerys IX
I don't know that I am sure what is behind Dany in her dream that is howling. Certainly, at times it seems like it's a dragon, but I really think the dragon aspect of this dream is the dragon inside of her. So, something cold and dark and terrible is chasing her. She feels it's icy breath (I think this is an allusion to the Winterfell crypts) but is the icy breathed beast that is chasing her howling, or will it be her, if she is the one howling? IF Dany shares the blood of dragon and direwolf, then it's almost like at this moment, she made a choice to embrace the dragon, leaving the direwolf behind her.
I have speculated that the icy breath behind her is a direwolf, an ice dragon, or perhaps the Night Queen.
Serra could be descendant of Saera Targaryen especially after release of F&B or it could be another Stark clue since there is a Stark bastard named Sara Snow who married Jacaerys Velaryon.
I don't know where to take this little tidbit of information. Is it true or false, was there a marriage, an affair, or nothing? Even if there was, was their a child? And if there was a child, did it end up getting married into the Stark line of inheritance? So many IF's...
Do you think sentinel cherry trees around the Bakkalon figure from Illyrio's palace has any importance? I always thought that figure was supposed to be Aegon himself and not young Illyrio.
I have not thought about this for a long time, but I believe I have questioned that is is a representation of Illyrio from his past. Of course, it might also be a representation of "the prince who was promised", a vague hope rather than an actual person. The six cherry tree's surrounding the statue of the warrior with the sword is interesting imagery. 6 + 1 is number imagery that shows up a couple of times. Ned and his six wraiths, Rhaegar and his six companions ... I am sure there are more, but those come up immediately in my thoughts. I would like to link it to a grove of 6 weirwoods in a circle, but so far we have not been told about a grove of 6 of the pale trees.
If the statue is supposed to be a representation of Aegon/Young Griff, then I suppose we are given a hint at what Aegon's hair looks like under the blue dye. It has to be blond, as this marble statue is painted to have blond hair. (blond? is it silver, gold, white??? vague,vague,vague). Another interesting thing about this statue, is that Tyrion notes that the sword held by the statue looks like true steel. Here is that passage:
Beneath his window six cherry trees stood sentinel around a marble pool, their slender branches bare and brown. A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo's blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. So lifelike did he seem that it took the dwarf a long moment to realize he was made of painted marble, though his sword shimmered like true steel. ADWD-Tyrion I
Is the sword painted to look like true steel, OR is it a true steel sword? Blackfyre is missing, and it was last seen in Essos. Of course, Blackfyre is Valyrian steel, so it would be dark grey steel, and Tyrion doesn't give us that much detail. But if it is a special sword, what the hell is the purpose of placing it in a fountain? I suppose one could argue that it is being hide in plain site and that might be the best hiding place for it, but ...
At this point, most theories are as good as the next one, and we just have to wait and hopefully someday we will get some answers. And in the meanwhile, we just keep searching and reading in the text for clues we might have missed, or clues we have seen but need to rethink.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. AGOT-Daenerys IX
I don't know that I am sure what is behind Dany in her dream that is howling. Certainly, at times it seems like it's a dragon, but I really think the dragon aspect of this dream is the dragon inside of her. So, something cold and dark and terrible is chasing her. She feels it's icy breath (I think this is an allusion to the Winterfell crypts) but is the icy breathed beast that is chasing her howling, or will it be her, if she is the one howling? IF Dany shares the blood of dragon and direwolf, then it's almost like at this moment, she made a choice to embrace the dragon, leaving the direwolf behind her.
I have speculated that the icy breath behind her is a direwolf, an ice dragon, or perhaps the Night Queen.
Serra could be descendant of Saera Targaryen especially after release of F&B or it could be another Stark clue since there is a Stark bastard named Sara Snow who married Jacaerys Velaryon.
I don't know where to take this little tidbit of information. Is it true or false, was there a marriage, an affair, or nothing? Even if there was, was their a child? And if there was a child, did it end up getting married into the Stark line of inheritance? So many IF's...
Do you think sentinel cherry trees around the Bakkalon figure from Illyrio's palace has any importance? I always thought that figure was supposed to be Aegon himself and not young Illyrio.
I have not thought about this for a long time, but I believe I have questioned that is is a representation of Illyrio from his past. Of course, it might also be a representation of "the prince who was promised", a vague hope rather than an actual person. The six cherry tree's surrounding the statue of the warrior with the sword is interesting imagery. 6 + 1 is number imagery that shows up a couple of times. Ned and his six wraiths, Rhaegar and his six companions ... I am sure there are more, but those come up immediately in my thoughts. I would like to link it to a grove of 6 weirwoods in a circle, but so far we have not been told about a grove of 6 of the pale trees.
If the statue is supposed to be a representation of Aegon/Young Griff, then I suppose we are given a hint at what Aegon's hair looks like under the blue dye. It has to be blond, as this marble statue is painted to have blond hair. (blond? is it silver, gold, white??? vague,vague,vague). Another interesting thing about this statue, is that Tyrion notes that the sword held by the statue looks like true steel. Here is that passage:
Beneath his window six cherry trees stood sentinel around a marble pool, their slender branches bare and brown. A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo's blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. So lifelike did he seem that it took the dwarf a long moment to realize he was made of painted marble, though his sword shimmered like true steel. ADWD-Tyrion I
Is the sword painted to look like true steel, OR is it a true steel sword? Blackfyre is missing, and it was last seen in Essos. Of course, Blackfyre is Valyrian steel, so it would be dark grey steel, and Tyrion doesn't give us that much detail. But if it is a special sword, what the hell is the purpose of placing it in a fountain? I suppose one could argue that it is being hide in plain site and that might be the best hiding place for it, but ...
At this point, most theories are as good as the next one, and we just have to wait and hopefully someday we will get some answers. And in the meanwhile, we just keep searching and reading in the text for clues we might have missed, or clues we have seen but need to rethink.
I do not believe in Mushroom and accounts of Jacaerys/Sara too but Sara Snow isn't our only Sara from the North, Cregan and Alysanne Blackwood had a daughter named Sarra as well, now everything knows who Saera was and if Cregan was playing to Targaryen favours by naming his daughter from Alysanne - Sarra than he didn't do a good job but she still ties Aegon to North considering she also had a sister Mariah -> Myriah Martell was wife of Daeron II. I started to realize how names could be important after searching meanings of Tormund and his sons names.
Tor Mund - Tower + Hand Tor Wyn - Tower + Joy Tor Egg - Tower + Egg/Aegon Dor + Mund - Gate + Hand
I do not believe in Mushroom and accounts of Jacaerys/Sara too but Sara Snow isn't our only Sara from the North, Cregan and Alysanne Blackwood had a daughter named Sarra as well, now everything knows who Saera was and if Cregan was playing to Targaryen favours by naming his daughter from Alysanne - Sarra than he didn't do a good job but she still ties Aegon to North considering she also had a sister Mariah -> Myriah Martell was wife of Daeron II. I started to realize how names could be important after searching meanings of Tormund and his sons names.
Tor Mund - Tower + Hand Tor Wyn - Tower + Joy Tor Egg - Tower + Egg/Aegon Dor + Mund - Gate + Hand
I am curious where you got your idea's for translation on these names. In the real world, Tor us usually used in names that connect to Thor, the God of Thunder.
One of the reasons I ask, is because I am working on the concept over the last several months that the tower of joy wasn't a man made tower at all, but a tor, a tower-like hill or rocky peak, perhaps made of granite, something that might appear a tower from far away but actually be very much formed by nature. Perhaps something that Rhaegar named "tower of joy" in a tongue in cheek manner!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
But what about Young Griff? He also had R+L symbolism imo with his blue hair being tied to his mother + a red wolf cape worn by Jon Connington. Add Lemore and Haldon to mix well then we shall wait for TWOW.
I never followed this connection of blue hair being tied directly to Lyanna. ......... Your comments to remind me that I perhaps should refresh my mind of the OotGH's theory on Young Griff being the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Thanks.
I don't see the blue hair connection either. If there is one, it is pretty weak. It seem to be the lie it is explained to be, about a fake Tyroshi mother, and no more. The stool needs 3 more legs. I am not sure if I buy that they are there. The OotGH also puts out a reasonably credible theory that Lemore = Ashara Dayne and Haldo Halfmaester = Walys Flowers. Even if this turns out to be true, it doesn't necessarily mean R+L=Aegon, like they conclude. I still lean to R+L=D.
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There is a very interesting similarities in names between the Halfhand and Halfmaester, but it's not something I have thought about before. Qhorin is one of the more intriguing characters of the story, or at least I find him so. His overall plan that includes Jon and Ghost is full of questions and oddities, and it seems like the whole group that travels with him and Jon are willing to give their lives. For Jon? What is the connection? What is the goal? I know the OotGH has built a major series of theories around who these men might have been before, what the goal is now, etc. Perhaps they are correct? I don't know, but for Qhorin to want Jon (or Ghost) along for their mission seems a bit odd.
I don't see the blue hair connection either. If there is one, it is pretty weak. It seem to be the lie it is explained to be, about a fake Tyroshi mother, and no more. The stool needs 3 more legs. I am not sure if I buy that they are there. The OotGH also puts out a reasonably credible theory that Lemore = Ashara Dayne and Haldo Halfmaester = Walys Flowers. Even if this turns out to be true, it doesn't necessarily mean R+L=Aegon, like they conclude. I still lean to R+L=D.
If Young Griff turns out to be of Stark blood I will be surprised, mostly because I don't see much ice or winter imagery in him. Daenerys actually has several nod's to winter in her story. If she ends up having some Stark blood, we will be able to look back in the text and point to "Dany said, cold as ice" and the funeral pyre she built for Drogo with the "north to south, from ice to fire" business, and her connection with her silver mare which is described as "grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke". Those are a few things that come to my mind with ease and I am sure there are more. Honestly, I am not sure that Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had a child, but if they did, Dany is a much better bet than Jon or Young Griff!
Haldon Half Maester is interesting to me for the description of his eyes, which are "cool grey eyes", mostly because that is the same description we get for Brandon Stark's eyes from Cat's memory! Not all grey eyes in this story are linked to the Stark's directly, but that is a very specific description I have a hard time shaking.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
There is a very interesting similarities in names between the Halfhand and Halfmaester, but it's not something I have thought about before. Qhorin is one of the more intriguing characters of the story, or at least I find him so. His overall plan that includes Jon and Ghost is full of questions and oddities, and it seems like the whole group that travels with him and Jon are willing to give their lives. For Jon? What is the connection? What is the goal? I know the OotGH has built a major series of theories around who these men might have been before, what the goal is now, etc. Perhaps they are correct? I don't know, but for Qhorin to want Jon (or Ghost) along for their mission seems a bit odd.
Gerold Hightower and his nephew Leyton.
Hi, mtootles , welcome to the board. Are you thinking that Qhorin is Gerold or Leyton? I am not sure which you mean? Anyway, Qhorin does have a significant hand injury, and I believe we are told that Gerold Hightower had a hand injury while fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood. What hand was the injury too, and could it have caused him to need several fingers amputated? But if Qhorin is Gerald, then he and Ulmer, who was the man that supposedly shot that arrow, would no doubt recognize each other. However, they do serve out of different castles of the Night's Watch, so perhaps they would not cross paths?
Honestly, if I had to think that Qhorin had another identity, I would think he is Arthur Dayne. Something about his sword hand injury hints to me how the greatest swordsman in Westeros would practice and train until he became very proficient with his off hand. Just as I suspect Jaime could do, if given enough time. But that's pretty tinfoilish, although I like tinfoil rather a lot!
Or are you thinking one of these men is Haldon? Haldon is a pretty interesting person, and is certainly surrounded by mystery! I would be so entertained if Haldon was someone important, Rolly Duckworth, too, and Tyrion had not even paid them much attention at all.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.