Rhaegar + Lyanna = Dany

I think Young Griff/Aegon is a possibility, but I am not sold on it being him. My top runner right now is Sam Tarly, and that he is either the real Aegon, or he is a different child of Rhaegar's, but it's more likely to me that he is the son of Rhaegar and Elia. Although, this would give Sam a
"hidden prince trope" and I just don't know if GRRM is doing that. I am a bit unsure about Samwell's age. I think he is 15 when Randyll sends him to the wall, so that makes him the same age as Jon, and that might actually be too young to be Aegon. However, if we can doubt Dany's true age, or Jon's, then we can doubt Sam's true age, as well.


What is it that you see in Jaime's dream that debunk's RLJ?

You make a good point about how much of this dream can be taken as truth, just like Ned's fever dream. I don't really know. There is SO MUCH going on in Jaime's dream. It's a fascinating read, but it has a long and meandering path.

Jaime does list 5 kingsguard brothers, three of which include the three from Ned's toj dream, plus Jon Darry and Lewyn Martell. The five kingsguard brother's of Jaime's that did not survive the rebellion (as far as we know). Barristan and Jaime survived AND lived on to serve the usurper king, Robert. They definitely refer to Aerys as "king" and scold Jaime for not protecting him. I agree that they seem to think of Aerys as King, but as you mentioned, this is Jaime's dream, and might not be a reflection of how those men truly felt, although the Neddard's dream seems to reciprocate this idea of Aerys as King!

And honestly, I am not sure how many armed men are even in Jaime's dream. Rhaegar and the 5 kingsguard for certain, but at times it almost reads like Ned Stark is the first rider that he see's. But who would be the other riding with Ned? It Jaime's memories, it is Rickard and Brandon Stark who are linked as a pair of dead men, although neither get's a hint of a mention in this dream.

You make a great point about Rhaegar's shade commenting on his wife and children, (Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon) and that he trusted Jaime to protect them. Of course, this might be Jaime's greatest sense of guilt, and the reason he never told the truth about Aerys and the wild fire plot, because Jaime felt like he did deserve a level of punishment because he didn't protect Elia and the children. Whether it's truth or just in Jaime's head, it seems that Jaime has no reason to question that Rhaegar had a wife or child besides Elia and her children. This certainly could debunk the idea that Rhaegar could have married Lyanna, since he speaks of wife in the singular, but he still could have had a child with her or another woman.

However, you are correct that these kingsguard of Jaime's dream associate the kingship with Aerys! And so, if three kingsguard were guarding something at the toj, then it is something associated with Aerys kingship. Of course, I am not sold on Lyanna being in the toj of joy, or anywhere near it, but what if some other woman was, and gave birth there. We have a few options. Rhaella, queen who was known to be pregnant near the end of the rebellion. Ashara could be another possibility who get's some mention in our story, is tied to Dorne, towers (she apparently jumped out of one). Joanna Lannister was associated with Aerys but she is dead or missing by this time of the story.

I am personally not even sold that the toj was in either Dorne or the Dornish marches (stormlands). I have heard theories that it was in Kings Landing actually, and for a long time I have wondered if the toj was either in the north or the vale. It could be a lot of places, but the more the story implies it was in Dorne, the more I doubt it. But I am a doubter...


It doesn't make sense if the RL baby was legitimate, I agree. And it doesn't make any sense to guard a bastard. But maybe the key is that they were not guarding a child that was either a bastard or Rhaegar's. They were guarding a child that was Aerys heir and legitimate. So, could that be Viserys? The child that Rhaella was pregnant with? And why was no one with Rhaella, who is supposedly fled to Dragonstone? Unless at the time of Ned's confronting the kingsguard, he didn't realize that Rhaella was who the kingsguard were protecting in the tower?

Yes, Arthur has a theme of sadness. In Jaime's dream and in Ned's dream. A sad smile or he speaks sadly. Perhaps, Arthur was a melancholy person? There are a couple times in the text that Jon is sad, or has a sad smile on his face. Sam Tarly also has this sad smile once!


Sam notes that Jon has a sad smile here, and it seems to be triggered by a woman breastfeeding a child, a child that belongs to neither Sam or Jon!


In this instance, Jon is again smiling sadly, but is it because of what he has forced Gilly to do, to leave her child and claim another? Because he is saying goodbye to Sam, perhaps forever, and the snow melting in Sam's hair reminds Jon of saying goodbye to Robb, who Jon never saw again? Or is it the child again? Just after Gilly get's in the wagon, she put's Mance's son to breast. This time, the child isn't Gilly's either, nor is it Jon or Sam's child.

What could this indicate in Arthur's sad smile in both Jaime and Ned's dreams?


In this case, it's Sam with the sad smile, and he seems to be thinking of his time in Randyll Tarly's castle. So, the sad smile could be linked to placing a child that belongs to none of the people involved in a place to protect it, such as I suspect with Sam. So, in this role, neither sad smile is tied to a parent of said child, but in all three cases, it could be argued that the child that was protected (if it was either Jon or Sam) is the one who is now wearing a sad smile.

However, I have argued in the past that Jon's sad smile is a direct hint that Arthur is Jon's father!



I agree with your assessment that in terms of being an heir to the Iron Throne, it makes no sense to have Lyanna guarded by kingsguard. Of course, the show has given us the bonker's idea of a annulment but that is not the case in the books. It could be argued that Rhaegar did take a second wife, although who knows how legitimate that marriage would seem in the eyes of Westeros AND the Faith of the Seven. And I think that Elia was Rhaegar's only wife, the mother of his only legitimate children.

BUT would Mad Aerys have thought to take a second wife? That is not something I had ever considered before but I suppose it's possible. And more likely from his unbalanced mind that Rhaegar, who seems sane and thoughtful.

But yes, it seems that both Rhaegar and Aerys did trust that Twyin would come and save their bacon, but in the end, it was Tywin Lannister that doomed the dragons! Oh, Robert and Ned and the rebellion boys did most of the work, but the final punches were thrown by the Lannister's!

Still, I try to take into consideration when reading Jaime's dream, that we don't know how much is truth, and how much is Jaime's perception of the truth. Jaime's dream is really quite fascinating to try to figure out. I really enjoyed your analysis of it, and for reminding me that in Jaime's mind, at least, Rhaegar had no wife other than Elia. And that in both Jaime and Ned's dreams, the kingsguard seems to think of Aerys as their king until the bitter end, even after Aerys death, he is their king. Right up unto their death.

As to the reason Arthur was sad, it could very well be because he broke an oath, but which oath did he break? As Jaime tells us, as a son, a knight, and a kingsguard, there are so many oaths, how does one determine which to hold and which to break. The one thing that Jaime seems never to have felt bad about his his many oaths is of not having a lover, since he seems to relish his time with Cersei, and even contemplates taking Pia (or other women) to bed. So, if Arthur is like Jaime, and Arthur took a lover, would he be bothered by that broken oath?

The deeper I question, the more questions I have. It's like being stuck in quicksand!